Weapons

[Prism]

Your favorite weapon?

[Guest]

Dual Ingrams all the way.

[biXen]

Why on earth didn't you include all of them? Especially since on could choose two...

[FullMetalJacket]

Not all the weapons were listed! Besides, the second game will have more anyway. images/icons/smile.gif

[KillJoy]

uhh...the dual colt 1911's that will be in MP2.

Here's hoping.

[FullMetalJacket]

I hope so too. Way better than Berettas. images/icons/grin.gif But if .45s do as little damage to the enemies as the Berettas did in the first game, I don't think I'll ever forgive it!

Maybe Remedy could balance the .45s by making their ammo, and the guns themselves, super-rare, and of course they would be useless against armored opponents.

[Kev_Hectic]

You may not view the results of this poll until voting has stopped.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well that's new.

[YicklePigeon]

Ridiculous. ONLY two choices? I like all the weapons!

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Regards,

Yickle.

[Jade]

Dual Ingrams...it's too spectacular when you dive images/icons/grin.gif .

Why didn't you put Beretta m92? Classic and stylish...

[The Baskinator]

The Go-Go Ray!

. . . Wait, that wasn't in the game. Dual Ingrams, then.

[Fraeon Waser Duhni]

Dual sniper rifles. One bullet for each eye. images/icons/tongue.gif

[asker]

Maybe Remedy could balance the .45s by making their ammo, and the guns themselves, super-rare, and of course they would be useless against armored opponents. [/QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A .45 cal FMJ round (like those in just about every American-made police or self-defense .45 that isn't a hollowpoint bullet) will punch a Kevlar vest hard enough to break the ribs underneath, rupture organs, collapse lungs, etc.

It should also be pointed out that this "Guy takes a bullet in the vest and gets back up" movie stuff is crap. You take one in the Kevlar, your chances of survival are better (BETTER) but it ain't magical bullet-stopping material. "Bulletproof" is an extremely misleading word. Only the weakest of pistol and SMG rounds (often the same bullet; Berettas and MP5s share the same 9x19mm Parabellum rounds) will a vest reliably stop.

More powerful handgun bullets (.45, .357, .44, .50) can place enough impace force into a vest to severely injure the person underneath. Newer, more advanced bullet types like FN's 5.7x28mm round or H&K's brand-new 4.6mm bullets slide through kevlar like a knife through Kleenex, and any decent military or hunting rifle will all but ignore Kevlar.

Unless you're talking about hot SWAT armor (two Kevlar layers with a titanium plate in between) those "armored opponents" aren't going to take a big bullet like a .45 and laugh at you.

[KillJoy]

UNLESS THEY ARE ON VALYKR, OF COURSE!!!


EDIT: Comma issues.

[FullMetalJacket]

Originally posted by asker:
A .45 cal FMJ round (like those in just about every American-made police or self-defense .45 that isn't a hollowpoint bullet) will punch a Kevlar vest hard enough to break the ribs underneath, rupture organs, collapse lungs, etc.

It should also be pointed out that this "Guy takes a bullet in the vest and gets back up" movie stuff is crap. You take one in the Kevlar, your chances of survival are better (BETTER) but it ain't magical bullet-stopping material. "Bulletproof" is an extremely misleading word. Only the weakest of pistol and SMG rounds (often the same bullet; Berettas and MP5s share the same 9x19mm Parabellum rounds) will a vest reliably stop.

More powerful handgun bullets (.45, .357, .44, .50) can place enough impace force into a vest to severely injure the person underneath. Newer, more advanced bullet types like FN's 5.7x28mm round or H&K's brand-new 4.6mm bullets slide through kevlar like a knife through Kleenex, and any decent military or hunting rifle will all but ignore Kevlar.

Unless you're talking about hot SWAT armor (two Kevlar layers with a titanium plate in between) those "armored opponents" aren't going to take a big bullet like a .45 and laugh at you. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LMAO, you think I don't know that?! images/icons/mad.gif
Kevlar only prevents penetration. It does NOT prevent pain! And that's always been an issue with Kevlar vests. With higher-velocity or larger-caliber pistol rounds, the Kevlar is pushed backwards and then bounces back forwards. I believe, if the vest bounces as much as 44 millimeters into a person's chest before bouncing back forward, the person is dead.
And what about the "hot" SWAT armor? I don't know where you got that "titanium" plate thing from. Level III armor uses steel plates, and Level IV uses composite ceramic, which weighs a good twelve pounds and can defeat essentially any small-arm round except for a .30'06 or a .50 Browning. And mainly SWAT pointmen and entry teams wear vests that solid....since they're so heavy, they limit your mobility. SWAT Assaulters and the "general SWAT guys" just wear Level IIIA vests (as worn by the heroes in the new movie SWAT), which offer the same level of protection as Army PASGT (Personal Armor System, Ground Troops) flak vests -- it can stop virtually all pistol and shotgun fire, and a small amount of submachine gun fire, perhaps 3 rounds. Any rifle rounds would slice through it unless it were stopped by a steel or ceramic "chicken plate."
You also said something about Berettas and MP5's using the same 9x19mm Parabellum ammo. That's true, but a bullet fired from a submachine gun will always be much more powerful than one fired from a pistol of the same caliber, due mainly to the longer barrel, which increases range, accuracy, and overall effectiveness.
The FN 5.7mm can defeat many types of body armor, yes, but it's also like you're shooting them with needles. Unless you're at point-blank range or you get a headshot (which is more difficult than many people realize), count on several shots to bring personnel down while using that round, armored or otherwise. Thing is, you might not have time to get a second shot off. images/icons/smile.gif

And of course, there's shotgun slugs. One would not pierce the armor of someone wearing a Level IV vest with a ceramic plate -- but the impact would actually crush his sternum and kill him anyway.

When designing body armor, people always want a handkerchief that will stop a howitzer, and that will not be possible for a very long time, if it ever is at all.

[SkavenRMD]

Look, just like with the last game, I doubt we're going for such a complex damage model. After all, it's a fun shooter, "realism" is not one of it key points, as is the case with tactical military / special forces shooters like Raven Shield.

So for the "experts", I'm sure Max Payne 2 will have loads and loads of nits to pick about the guns. What could be more fun? Wheeee! graemlins/hhg.gif

(Well, um, I know many things what would be more fun in fact...)

[Ninja]

Raven Shield realistic? AHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Sorry Skaven images/icons/wink.gif

Btw, IIRC, PASGT vests only provide Type IIA or II level protection (without the Type III plates obviously) in private tests, since as far as I know, the National Institute of Justice doesn't certify front opening body armour. Actually, the only vest I know of used by the military which provides IIIA protection without plates is the Full Spectrum Battle Equipment vest, used exclusively by Force Recon Marines.

[FullMetalJacket]

Really, Ninja? Interesting. What I do know is that the standard Army PASGT flak vests are designed more for stopping shrapnel than bullets.
And there's more than the Full Spectrum armor. Guys like Delta Force have modular armor systems such as the Interceptor, I believe it's called. Some of their stuff is thin and unobtrusive and looks just like web gear, but actually has several small composite ceramic plates placed in vital areas. The way it's designed is that each little bit of ceramic plate will be rendered useless after it's hit by all but the most high-powered rifle rounds. If that now-useless plate were hit again, you'd be dead, but hey, it's actually impossible to shoot the exact same spot on a target twice.
Besides, the Deltas are, bar none, the fastest and best shots in the world. They'd take their targets down so quick that the Deltas' vest wouldn't have taken a shot.
Plus, half the characters they'd probably go up against are, like, poorly trained half-assed mountain boys with inaccurate weapons, who take hostages and murder children "in the name of God." Sounds like just about any terrorist in the world.
Raven Shield seemed quite realistic to me, aside from the unnaturally good aim of the tangos and the fact that they could kill you with one shot from a peashooter from a hundred yards, even when you wore the heaviest body armor.
And Skaven, MP2 will certainly be a fun game, I'll grant you that, but it's not fun when you walk up to someone and shoot him five times in the face and he ends up killing YOU, or if a baddie tries to run away and you shoot him in the back three times with a shotgun and he still ends up escaping alive. images/icons/rolleyes.gif images/icons/smile.gif

[Gatinater]

Why not dual

Browning 1911's

Springfield 1911's or

AMT 1911's (hard ballers)

James Browning designed the 1911 and springfield made the best version. But Colt's are abundant.

[Gatinater]

Le's see.

The Bretta 92 - 96 series are made in

9x19 and 40 cal.

The Beretta Couger series(Really nice guns) Are made in .357 sig. 40 cal. S&W and 45 ACP.

The .357 sig has much more pentration power than the .357 magnum. The sig can punch right through level 3 armor. Much mor devistating than .45

As for the Ingrams. It was never specified weather or not if they were 9x19(.35) .38, .40 or .45 caliber

Most police body armor doesn't have ceramic plating. So it's not as protective as plated armor. So why assume the bad guy will be wearing level 2 police armor?


What about a 10mm pistol or sub machine gun?

Colt has a really nice 10mm Delta pistol and H&K has been showing of their MP5 10mm A3 and A4.

[FullMetalJacket]

The Ingrams simply had to be 9mm Parabellum, .355 caliber.

The 10mm is also the best bullet for the submachine gun, as the .45 has too much recoil to be manageable on full auto for most shooters, and the 9mm offers too little stopping power. The 10mm is better than just a compromise -- it offers the brutal, instant-kill knock-down power of the .45 but with the high-velocity, armor-piercing capabilities of Magnum rounds.
images/icons/smile.gif

[Ninja]

Gatinater: .357 SIG is a nice round, but it doesn't offer anything that decent 9mm rounds don't. The best .357 SIG round is the 125 grain Gold Dot JHP, which offers nearly identical performance to the 9 mm 124 gr +P Speer Gold Dot JHP or 9mm 147 gr Winchester Ranger Talon JHP.

I assume you meant IIIA armour, because there is not a chance in hell of a pistol round going through a III plate which can stop rifle FMJ rounds.

The 10mm in a "hot configuration" is nice (although it beats the hell out of pistols), but in subsonic IMO it's pointless, .40S&W is a much better choice.

[ 08-13-2003, 01:27 AM: Message edited by: Ninja ]

[SkavenRMD]

FMJ and Ninja, sitting in a tree...

[Bushido]

Hey Skaven...remember back in the day when we'd get all these "experts" on guns spouting off about this flaw and that flaw? Ah memories... images/icons/smile.gif

[Gatinater]

Hey Ninja, Yes I did mean plateless level III armor, because here in the real world most tactical teams and law enforcement buy plateless armor, because it's cheaper and lighter. The plating makes it uncomfortable and hot too.

I've never seen any 9mm go through plateless level III armor, Not even talon, but I have seen .357 sig punch through it everytime. Nice thing about working for a law enforcment armorer is that I Get see live fire armor and ammunition demonstrations.

.357 sig is better, because it has more penetration, more power and most imortantly, it's cheaper. Most of the SWAt teams here don't even carry .45s anymore. They carry the Beretta Couger .357 sig.

All the police went over to the .40 92D or one of the .40 caliber Cougers, because it's better than the 9mm.

40 cal has the stopping power, but not the penetration of a .357. and a 10mm. It's also much easier to control and line up a consecutive shot.

You know why you don't see 10mm anymore? It was a great bullet and a lot of departments would have loves to use it, but it was just too expensive. Same thing is happening with the Talon round. They're not as cheap as .40cal. So they will die out.

The more power powerful 9mm are too expensive and the .40cal and the .357 sig are just as good and much cheaper. Therefore. Sig and .40 win.

[Gatinater]

Oh yes and aside from talon and the other heavy load 9mm being too expensive... They're load is also too powerful for most guns especially Berettas. So if you fire those rounds out of a 9mm that's not designed to fire heavy loads. It will damage, warp or ruin and eventually break the gun. The blow back is too much. That's another reason those rounds died out and never became mainstream.

The only weapon that would be suited to fire those rounds something that's designed specificly for heavy loads. Such as one of Magnum research inc's 9mm desert eagles. A heavy duty 9mm deagle.

I was just thinking about the left over boxes of talon in the shop and I remembered why they weren't used for very long.


In summery. Heavy load bullets are bad, because they will break your gun unless it's designed to fire heavy loads. Most 9mms aren't

[SkavenRMD]

Oh yes Bushido, those were the days... and those will be the days, judging the recent discussions here.

[Ninja]

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
FMJ and Ninja, sitting in a tree... <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not gonna happen, he loves his bulky .45s too much, I love 9mm and .40 instead images/icons/wink.gif

Gatinater: obviously the armour can't have been NIJ NIJ 0101.04 Type III rated then. Either that or it was IIIA rated and had failed the V50 test.

Since the highest level of soft body armour you can get is IIIA, I doubt there are such things as "plateless III" vests. You want to stop rifle rounds, you need a III plate. You can get IIIA plates, that is true, but putting a IIIA plate in front of a IIIA vest won't guarantee fully stopping a rifle round.

And as I've said before, the best .357 SIG rounds perform virtually the same as the best 9mm rouds, so you get slightly heavier recoil, greater wear and tear on your pistol, and fewer rounds for something a 9mm is equal to. It's a solution looking for a problem.

Oh, the only pistol I know of that can't handle 147 grain 9mm ammo is the P7: SIGs, Glocks and USPs handle it fine. For P7s, the spring is designed for 115 to 124 grain ammo, so if you use heavier (you NEVER use 158 grain or heavier rounds in a P7) rounds, you'll end up wearing it out very quickly.

[FullMetalJacket]

You're right about the P7, Ninja.

The .357 SIG, just so you know, is in fact essentially a beefed-up 9mm. Higher-grain 9mm rounds are passable, but I'm just saying that the stock 124-grain 9x19mm Parabellum round is woefully inadequate for combat use.

The .40S&W, also, is in fact just a slightly scaled-down 10mm.

[Gatinater]

No... You can get plateless level III armor. The problem with plateless armor is that it will stop a .44 mag and a .45, but you will suffer a lot of internal injurys from the impact, but a broken rib is much better than an a bullet through the chest.

Yes your right about the 10mm and the and the 9mms, but the .40 and the .357 sig are so succesful, because they are cheaper. Cheaper. Cheaper. You can buy a lot more of them for a lot less. So they're ideal more ideal than the heavy load 9mms. Plus as I said. Nobody wants the heavy load 9mms anymore, because a lot of sidearms were damaged by those rounds. Plus the rounds were are expensive.

[FullMetalJacket]

Yeah, but say you're in a unit like Delta Force, where you can use basically whatever the hell you want. You don't buy your equipment, it's issued to you, and you won't care how much it cost unless you break or lose it. images/icons/grin.gif

[asker]

You're right that a .357 Sig essentially is a slightly changed 9mm round. My theory is that they called it ".357 SIG" instead of "9mm SIG" because when people who know only a little bit about guns see ".357" they go "OOOOH BIG MAGNUM .357 KILL STUFF BIG HOLES BANG!" or something along those lines.

Sauers are cool because they are small, not because they will send someone flying away with a big chuck torn out of them. The Canadian Navy just replaced the Browning 9mm with a Sig P225 for all of their boarding parties, because they're small and reliable. (My friend Dave is in Signals, and he's hoping that they're gonna issue FNP90s to S-Ops instead of the standard C7. It ain't gonna happen but he doesn't believe me; he holds out hope).

It is also true that infantry body armor is only good at stopping shrapnel, and not much else. There's a reason for this, though: in World War 2, artillery and mortars killed a LOT more soldiers than bullets did, and since then, bombardment has become a bigger and bigger part of warfare, and pointing your rifle at the other guy and squeezing the trigger is growing ever-smaller.

The other factor is that body armor that will stop a 7.62x39mm out of an AK-47 is expensive and heavy. The Army can't afford to slap SWAT-equivalent armor on every grunt, and these soldiers also can't operate as effectively (marching as fast or as far, for example) carrying that much more weight.

I also feel I should mention that a 5.7mm doesn't feel like a needle when it hits you.

Yes, FMJ, it is likely that one 5.7 won't kill you unless it hits the head, heart, or another major organ and you don't get medical attention.

But you don't need to kill someone. If you are struck by any sort of proper bullet, even if it's in the arm, the pain alone will incapacitate you. A .22 might not do it, but a 5.7 or a 9mm in the hand, foot, arm, or leg will drop you like a sack of bricks.

[Ninja]

I recall MANY cases of people being shot and not reacting to it until later, or noticing that they've been shot but it didn't stop them focusing on their next actions.

Some people faint (even though physiologically they haven't lost enough blood to faint) after being shot, others ignore it until later. Everyone reacts differently.

You really can't guess how someone's going to react when they've been shot unless you shoot them between the eyes.

[MarkusRMD]

Err. Guys, pick up Raven Shield or something.. (you probably have images/icons/smile.gif

But I know my 2"3/4 00 buckshot from a bb gun pellet and have a clue what a grain is...

You'll have fun with Max2.

[SkavenRMD]

I also feel I should mention that a 5.7mm doesn't feel like a needle when it hits you.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Correct. And it often doesn't even just bore 'smoothly' through the body. The 5.7mm round is so light that when it hits the body, the bullet usually gets deformed and turns, with nasty results. The 5.7mm round is known to cause much worse internal bleeding than the 7.62mm round.

(yeah, what the hell, I'll partake... images/icons/smile.gif )

[Ninja]

Umm, sorry to correct you Skaven, but the SS190 wounds like a .22LR at best.

Refer to this quote by Doctor Gary K. Roberts, an expert in the terminal effects of bullets for over 20 years, and who studied under Colonel Martin L. Fackler (Ret), the originator of modern wound ballsitics research.

Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol.

I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4’s. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP’s fired from our duty 1911’s crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure.

Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90.

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.

--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.

--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.

--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.

--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.

--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

--Roberts G: “Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.”, AFTE Journal. In Press.

The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

Numerous other projectiles commonly used for law enforcement and military special operations applications, such as a good 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP JHP, the better 5.56 x 45 mm BTHP/JSP loads, as well as 12 gauge shotgun slugs and 00 buckshot, all provide better penetration, crush more tissue, and have far greater potential to reliably physiologically incapacitate an aggressor than the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90. Law enforcement agencies and military special operations units are strongly urged to avoid adoption of this weapon system.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000050.html

Plus all boat-tailed FMJ bullets tumble in tissue, partly because their centre of gravity is to the rear, and also (this goes for all bullets, except JHP and JSP points, whose noses tend to keep the bullet travelling fairly straight AFAIK due to the shift of the centre of gravity) because the spin rate on bullets is insufficient to keep them stable in AIR, not tissue. Human tissue is roughly 400 times more dense than air FYI.

[ 08-18-2003, 06:28 AM: Message edited by: Ninja ]

[FullMetalJacket]

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
Correct. And it often doesn't even just bore 'smoothly' through the body. The 5.7mm round is so light that when it hits the body, the bullet usually gets deformed and turns, with nasty results. The 5.7mm round is known to cause much worse internal bleeding than the 7.62mm round.

(yeah, what the hell, I'll partake... images/icons/smile.gif ) <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Same with a .223 round. It's so high-velocity that its direction can easily be changed. In fact, when it hits someone, the fluids inside the body can actually alter the course of the bullet.
It's actually possible, however unlikely, to shoot someone in the foot with a .223 round and the bullet ends up in his brain!

And I know I'll have fun with Max2, I just hope I don't have to empty a magazine into every enemy's face before he goes down. images/icons/smile.gif

[MikaRMD]

Whenever someone uses words "terminal performance" in conjunction, I am really not sure what to think... images/icons/wink.gif

[biXen]

Reading this topic just makes me worried. Who cares if bodily fluids alter the way the bullet goes, if you get shot you are all gonna moan like a little girl, that's a fact. Most people in here have seen too many movies and read too much about guns... yeah, you too Skaven images/icons/wink.gif

I'm still waiting for a game where they portray guns realistically. M16s jamming left and right images/icons/smile.gif Well they kind of did in Jagged Alliance (damn good games)

[j]

As long as people in the game die when I point a gun at them and shoot, I'm happy. Other than that, I don't much care (nor does pretty much anyone else). Some of you people really need new hobbies. It's not as if any one of you will ever need to actually shoot to kill someone. images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[ 08-18-2003, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: j ]

[Ninja]

Originally posted by FullMetalJacket:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
Correct. And it often doesn't even just bore 'smoothly' through the body. The 5.7mm round is so light that when it hits the body, the bullet usually gets deformed and turns, with nasty results. The 5.7mm round is known to cause much worse internal bleeding than the 7.62mm round.

(yeah, what the hell, I'll partake... images/icons/smile.gif ) <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Same with a .223 round. It's so high-velocity that its direction can easily be changed. In fact, when it hits someone, the fluids inside the body can actually alter the course of the bullet.
It's actually possible, however unlikely, to shoot someone in the foot with a .223 round and the bullet ends up in his brain!

And I know I'll have fun with Max2, I just hope I don't have to empty a magazine into every enemy's face before he goes down. images/icons/smile.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Cough"

Next you'll be telling me you can kill someone by shooting the air next to them images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Bullets create wounds by two methods: permanent and temporary cavity. Permanent cavity is the actually hole in tissue causes by the path of the bullet. Temporary cavity is the temporary displacement of tissue caused by the kinetic energy of a bullet passing through. Most tissue such as blood vessels and muscle is fairly elastic, so the streteching does not damage it. Temporary cavity (this applies only for rifle rounds, handgun bullets produce a pathetic temporary cavity) can however rupture inelastic organs, primarily fluid filled ones such as the liver or brain.

That's it, that's how bullets produce holes in people. I've heard people suggest the idea of hydrostatic shock, which medically applied to bullets is BS. What about the supersonic shockwave produced by supersonic bullets?

That particular wave arrives in tissue before the bullet (the speed of sound varied with the medium, so it's four times faster in tissue than it is in air), and DOES NO DAMAGE. You may have heard of a lithotripter: this is a device which breaks up kidney stones by high pressure sound waves. These waves have five times the amplitude of a bullet, and over 2000 of these waves are used in a sesson, with no damage to surrounding tissue.

/rant mode about wound ballistics off

[FullMetalJacket]

I'd need to, j.
Not for killing, but just for knowledge. Especially with practice on (nonliving) targets in ROTC this fall. images/icons/smile.gif

And biXen, modern M16s jam rarely, if ever, unless you don't know what the hell you're doing, and if you do know what the hell you're doing, you can clear a jam in an instant anyway, unless the round's a dud and gets lodged in the barrel. images/icons/smile.gif

[asker]

Sometimes they get cases where smaller rounds actually stop inside a large blood vessel and travel through the body. They have to use X-rays to find the bullet.

[shadow fox]

Originally posted by FullMetalJacket:
I'd need to, j.
Not for killing, but just for knowledge. Especially with practice on (nonliving) targets in ROTC this fall. images/icons/smile.gif

And biXen, modern M16s jam rarely, if ever, unless you don't know what the hell you're doing, and if you do know what the hell you're doing, you can clear a jam in an instant anyway, unless the round's a dud and gets lodged in the barrel. images/icons/smile.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">or if you tear a rim. during operation irene in somolia (1993) jamming occured often enough for mark bowden to metion it in his book. the only real jamming problems the m16 was in vetnam because macnamer's wiz kids and the army ordinace felt that scence Ugine Stoner did not put a crome receiver that it did not need one. but in combat all guns jam but can usually be cleared easily. but most reliable has to go to the AK47 as long as it has bullets and is mostly intact it will fire, but it is not the most useful rifle or the most acurate.
as far as max payne goes the guns he gets are revolvers, sawed off pump and auto shotguns, glocks, colt .45's, ak47's, ingrams, cop issue berettas, desert eagle .50 and .357, steir aug, m249, skorpion sub-machinegun, micro and full size uzi, mp5, m4, socom .45, and an assortmant of pipes, bottles, sticks, barrles, and homeless people.

[aavenr]

Originally posted by FullMetalJacket:
targets in ROTC this fall. images/icons/smile.gif
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Reserve Officer Training Corps? Nice. Good luck there images/icons/wink.gif

[FullMetalJacket]

Originally posted by aavenr:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FullMetalJacket:
targets in ROTC this fall. images/icons/smile.gif
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Reserve Officer Training Corps? Nice. Good luck there images/icons/wink.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Huh? I took ROTC all 4 years in high school, making it up to company commander as a cadet captain. Now I'm in RO another four years at college. What's the problem?

[asker]

AKs are made loose. Makes 'em jam rarely, but also makes 'em less accurate.

[Akari]

I think wants more important is that you guys make the Des Eagle animation right, I mean, NO ONE is that dumb to hold a powerful gun next to there face.

[Jokke_r]

what d oyou mean next to his face. he didn't hold it next to his face.

[eggyolk]

Originally posted by asker:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe Remedy could balance the .45s by making their ammo, and the guns themselves, super-rare, and of course they would be useless against armored opponents. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A .45 cal FMJ round (like those in just about every American-made police or self-defense .45 that isn't a hollowpoint bullet) will punch a Kevlar vest hard enough to break the ribs underneath, rupture organs, collapse lungs, etc.

It should also be pointed out that this "Guy takes a bullet in the vest and gets back up" movie stuff is crap. You take one in the Kevlar, your chances of survival are better (BETTER) but it ain't magical bullet-stopping material. "Bulletproof" is an extremely misleading word. Only the weakest of pistol and SMG rounds (often the same bullet; Berettas and MP5s share the same 9x19mm Parabellum rounds) will a vest reliably stop.

More powerful handgun bullets (.45, .357, .44, .50) can place enough impace force into a vest to severely injure the person underneath. Newer, more advanced bullet types like FN's 5.7x28mm round or H&K's brand-new 4.6mm bullets slide through kevlar like a knife through Kleenex, and any decent military or hunting rifle will all but ignore Kevlar.

Unless you're talking about hot SWAT armor (two Kevlar layers with a titanium plate in between) those "armored opponents" aren't going to take a big bullet like a .45 and laugh at you. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's why I aim for the head. images/icons/wink.gif

[Akari]

oh yeah?

http://www.massassi.net/ec/images/12435.jpg


think about the kick back from a weapon like that. You hold guns with your arms out. I shot a Des Eag once at a indoor shotting range and the kick is pretty strong.

[FullMetalJacket]

Hey Akari,

Hold a Deagle out properly, and your arms will be bent like that from the recoil. images/icons/smile.gif

[Akari]

?...don't belive me huh? Then fire one. You'll see.

[eggyolk]

No, I went to a shooting range and shot two M16s at the same time. One in each hand. I don't think a Deagle will do that.

[FullMetalJacket]

Originally posted by Akari:
?...don't belive me huh? Then fire one. You'll see. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Huh?! The Deagle DOES have a helluva kick! Hold it straight out in front of you, and it will kick almost up to your face -- much like how Max was holding it initially in that yellow render.

[Akari]

so...that was what I was sayinf FMJ...right?

eggyolk

Uh huh...ok..

[Variable]

Originally posted by eggyolk:
No, I went to a shooting range and shot two M16s at the same time. One in each hand. I don't think a Deagle will do that. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hehe, that musta looked cool.

[Akari]

or unlikly :rolleys:

[asker]

I've never shot an M16, but the Canadian variant (the C7) is very similar, and it doesn't kick very much. A Desert Eagle kicks a whole lot more, though real Desert Eagles jam like hell.

Putting gas-op in a handgun (even one that big) was just a bad idea to begin with. You can usually get through one magazine without it jamming, occasionally a second, but never three.

It's impossible to fire three whole clips through a Desert Eagle without cleaning it out in between.

EDIT: Yeah, I also saw Arnold Schwarzenegger fire an M16 in one hand in a movie. Only time I've ever seen it. Are you as strong as he is, Eggyolk?

[FullMetalJacket]

Arnie did that multiple times in Predator.

I can steadily hold an M16 in the hip-fire position one-handed like Arnie did, but I never tried actually firing it like that. It doesn't matter, because you wouldn't hit somebody unless he was close enough to touch you anyway. images/icons/smile.gif