Did PC Gamer diss Max?

[Nessus]

In this months PCGamer they look at 21 upcoming shooters and give them a rating on how good they think they will be. ^ bullets is the highest and games like HL2 and Halo for PC got 6, but Max, only 3 bullets and the accomanying article made it sound like it was just more of the same, did anyone else notice this?

[SpaceCow]

I don't really put stock into what they say about games. Or what any gaming magazine says about games. Doesn't everyone decide what they're going to buy on the merit of a demo or something?

[eggyolk]

Originally posted by Nessus:
In this months PCGamer they look at 21 upcoming shooters and give them a rating on how good they think they will be. ^ <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's the catch. They THINK. Have they played it? They judge the game by what? Around 20 screenshots of what doesn't even appear to be gameplay. Give me a break.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

The only real thing that pisses me off about MP2 is the extreme overuse of fire when shooting a gun.

[Yatta]

^ I like gunfire! You should see CoD's gunfire... images/icons/wink.gif

Thank G-d for demos, because I'll never be able to judge a game as well as I'll be able to judge it if I play it.

[LeadBullet]

Yeah, in Matrix Reloaded, where Trinity is flying out that window shooting at the agent that came out behind her (seen in trailer), they did something like that there as well. Instead of a flash of light they had actual flames coming out which I believe is probably as unrealistic as you can get.

[X-Vector]

You know, there's a middle ground between (preliminary) praising a game to high heavens and 'dissing' it and it seems that PCG have found it for MP2.
Muted enthusiasm and a feeling of MOTS pretty much mirror my expectation of the game and I don't think I'm dissing MP2 in any way by saying that.
If every game on PCG's list had recieved a 6/6, the whole anticipation score concept would have seemed even more trivial than it already does.

[Qtipie]

meanwhile i’m a little afraid that mp 2 could fall victim to its own success. has anyone ever thought about the possibility that mp2 could probably not meet our expectations, cause we're all simply expecting too much? like the first game became transfigured, turned into something supernatural and now we're hoping for something to top all that. it’s like building the tower of babel. at some point you can’t get any higher. honestly i think the guys at remedy have not yet reached the peak of their capabilities but it might be healthy for us and relieving for them in some way, that somebody is tugging at our trouser legs from time to time to get us back on the ground. i do hope and think max payne 2 will rock but at the moment i feel like we’re goading each other on. you can only be surprised by what you don’t expect, so in a way i'm oddly comfortable with that rating.

[j]

Originally posted by LeadBullet:
Yeah, in Matrix Reloaded, where Trinity is flying out that window shooting at the agent that came out behind her (seen in trailer), they did something like that there as well. Instead of a flash of light they had actual flames coming out which I believe is probably as unrealistic as you can get. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Umm.. it's not just a "flash of light" that comes out. What would generate the flash of light if not the flames coming out? But yeah, it isn't portrayed realistically, a muzzleflash only lasts like 3 milliseconds so there should be more like hundreds of small muzzleflashes instead of the continuos stream of fire like in Reloaded.

[biXen]

...but the latter looks better than the former. If you can't comprehend that you shouldn't see movies or play games.

About dissing, I doubt anyone including me who haven't played the game have any clue how good it may be. But I think we'll be surprised. Remedy hasn't disappointed me yet, and with more help from Rockstar this time around I'm sure this game is gonna kick ass, and be even more fun.

[SkavenRMD]

meanwhile i’m a little afraid that mp 2 could fall victim to its own success. has anyone ever thought about the possibility that mp2 could probably not meet our expectations, cause we're all simply expecting too much? like the first game became transfigured, turned into something supernatural and now we're hoping for something to top all that.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, like biXen just said. Just don't wait for anything supernatural, and you'll love the sequel.

(Playing the first game again a while before the sequel comes out, can also help to erode some of that gold-leafed nostalgia. images/icons/wink.gif )

j; But yeah, it isn't portrayed realistically, a muzzleflash only lasts like 3 milliseconds so there should be more like hundreds of small muzzleflashes instead of the continuos stream of fire like in Reloaded. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed. If you watch the film footage behind the link in this thread (Real life Bullet Time) (http://forums.3drealms.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=003923), you may notice that muzzleflashes last for only a very short time. The muzzle flashes in Max Payne last much longer than that.

However, there is a certain technicality that lead to this. You see, 3D hardware renders the graphics frame at a time, but it does not work like exposure on film. Therefore, if there is anything on screen that's visible for a shorter time than one frame, it may not get drawn at all.

Example: let's say the game's framerate is 25 fps. One frame lasts 0.04 seconds. If the muzzle flash particles' lifetimes were shorter than 0.04 seconds, not all the particles in the muzzle flash may show correctly. Due to this, the muzzle flashes had to last at least 0.06 seconds, just to make sure they always show up correctly even if the framerate happens to drop.

[dark_angel]

^^^^^
Lol ! we all know that the Next BIG Thing in Video gaming will be Duke Nukem Forever !

[FullMetalJacket]

Originally posted by Inanimate Carbon Rod:
The only real thing that pisses me off about MP2 is the extreme overuse of fire when shooting a gun. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You mean muzzle flash? It's actually a very small spurt of flame when you fire a gun, and it's so fast you can barely notice it.

I think they gave MP such nice muzzle flashes to make it more cinematic. They're still the best muzzle flashes I've ever seen in a game. images/icons/smile.gif

[Synti]

Yup, those muzzleflashes were really cinematic. It doesen't always has to be about realism, you know.

And I trust that MP2 will be atleast good. Afterall, these guys made Deathrally! Best. Car game. Ever!

[Presto]

I think you're all understating the enthusiasm that should go into hyping MP2. i highly doubt we'll be dissapointed no matter what images/icons/grin.gif

[wxpoet22]

Originally posted by Synti:
Yup, those muzzleflashes were really cinematic. It doesen't always has to be about realism, you know.

And I trust that MP2 will be atleast good. Afterall, these guys made Deathrally! Best. Car game. Ever! <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm, Death Rally was an ok racing game although I can't say it was as great a racing game as some of us were looking for. I'd like to see Remedy come out with a more realistic sequel and not restrict the view to top-to-bottom.

P.S.: I too think MP2 will be a great game even if there is no multiplayer which isn't all that needed anyway especially since this appears to be a story game like the first one which I'm more interested in.

[ 09-01-2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: wxpoet22 ]

[Nessus]

It still struck me as odd that Halo for PC was rated as having twice the potential and anticipation of Max2, is that really accurate? And the article seemed a little flat compared to that of other games. I think Max2 will sell huge the first month and every month after and that people are very excited about it.

[poo_al]

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
j; </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But yeah, it isn't portrayed realistically, a muzzleflash only lasts like 3 milliseconds so there should be more like hundreds of small muzzleflashes instead of the continuos stream of fire like in Reloaded. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed. If you watch the film footage behind the link in this thread (Real life Bullet Time) (http://forums.3drealms.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=003923), you may notice that muzzleflashes last for only a very short time. The muzzle flashes in Max Payne last much longer than that.

However, there is a certain technicality that lead to this. You see, 3D hardware renders the graphics frame at a time, but it does not work like exposure on film. Therefore, if there is anything on screen that's visible for a shorter time than one frame, it may not get drawn at all.

Example: let's say the game's framerate is 25 fps. One frame lasts 0.04 seconds. If the muzzle flash particles' lifetimes were shorter than 0.04 seconds, not all the particles in the muzzle flash may show correctly. Due to this, the muzzle flashes had to last at least 0.06 seconds, just to make sure they always show up correctly even if the framerate happens to drop. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I remember that someone asked if the bullets travelled at realistic speeds in Max1 and you gave a similar response. I remember you said you had to tone down the bullet speed significantly if the renderer was able to display the bullet in the short time that it took to reach its target.

[SkavenRMD]

That would be absolutely correct.

[Wamplet]

Originally posted by Nessus:
In this months PCGamer they look at 21 upcoming shooters and give them a rating on how good they think they will be. ^ bullets is the highest and games like HL2 and Halo for PC got 6, but Max, only 3 bullets and the accomanying article made it sound like it was just more of the same, did anyone else notice this? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I saw that too, but expected them to do it. The PCG Reviews and I hardly get along. images/icons/grin.gif

I personally don't give a rats arse about Doom3, Halo, HL2, or some of the other no name games they listed, but that's just me. images/icons/confused.gif

[Jokke_r]

i don't think halo for pc won't have a chance. since like 90% of the people have allready played it on the XBOX or attleast tried it and therefore it's old news when they release. attleast i won't buy it sonce it allready played it through at my friends house on the xbox

[eggyolk]

Originally posted by Jokke_r:
i don't think halo for pc won't have a chance. since like 90% of the people have allready played it on the XBOX or attleast tried it and therefore it's old news when they release. attleast i won't buy it sonce it allready played it through at my friends house on the xbox <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you play it online through X-box live?

You are a God.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

This is the bullshit im talking about from the extreme use of muzzle fire. It's a friggen handgun for God's sake.

http://www.maxpayneheadquarters.com/images/screenshots2/mp2_07.jpg

[FullMetalJacket]

Originally posted by Inanimate Carbon Rod:
This is the bullshit im talking about from the extreme use of muzzle fire. It's a friggen handgun for God's sake.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's not like it's some sort of ground-breaking news that Max Payne was not a realistic game. After all, you can dodge bullets! And you can shoot an enemy 3 times in the face with a sawed-off shotgun at point-blank range and he'll still be standing....so all that is perfectly acceptable, and yet a beautiful and fully volumetric, albeit large and bright, muzzle flash is somehow disgusting and intolerable? images/icons/rolleyes.gif images/icons/confused.gif

[FullMetalJacket]

Good. You wouldn't be able to see the bullets anyway, unless you were using tracers, which are sometimes dangerous to use...
And the bullet would hit its target almost instantaneously. Even the slowest of bullets travel at a good 600 feet per second, which is far faster than any human can move. I don't want to see any Hitman-style WALKING out of the path of bullets that are headed right for you. images/icons/smile.gif

[FullMetalJacket]

Okay, well, if they tone down the muzzle flash, then they might as well have a somewhat realistic damage model. Max often dies from one shotgun blast to the chest, and yet enemies can withstand multiple blasts to the face sometimes..... images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[Claws]

So I'm the only one who thinks it's more of the same? Don't mean to troll or sound like an ass. MP2 doesn;t seem to offer anything innovative. I was really hoping that Remedy would come up with a new feature that can breath fresh air the same way Bullet Time did with MP1.

[mixuk]

It's not like we've revealed a lot about the game. Chill out and wait until you see it in action.

Personally I think the greatest feature will be "it's fun as hell".

Heck, I wonder why that wasn't a bulletpoint on the webpage.

[theHunted]

people, haven't you read any previews? you can't judge that there are no new features just by watching some screenshots. everybody that got to play max 2 was amazed by the improved bullettime thats even more action movie like, plus does have new features like being able to stay on the ground shooting after a bullet-dive.

[ 09-03-2003, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: theHunted ]

[Claws]

I did read the previews, I did read that bullet time has been improved. I'm glad Remedy is trying to improve the fun factor. Mixuk, here is hoping that you guys still have some really cool unannounced features.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

When its that big, yes.

[Thriller]

Im hoping for a lot more moves and animations.

Other than that I have no doubt remedy will deliver.

[FullMetalJacket]

Originally posted by Thriller:
Im hoping for a lot more moves and animations.

Other than that I have no doubt remedy will deliver. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We already know that Max has an immeasurable amount of new moves. And as for animations, I'm not sure what you mean. There's multiple reload animations for the weapons (Max reloads a weapon differently in real-time than he does in bullet-time) but do you mean death animations? With the Havok2.0 physics engine, the amount of death animations is literally unlimited this time around.