What I dont understand is

[Akari]

Why you guys could add the Havok engine into MAX-FX and not just do some simple (I know cause a friend of mine has done it for a game (Chrome) ) character decals...

WHY DAMIT!!!!!!!!!! WHY???
That is all

*Continues Gummy Bears fest*

[j]

By character decals, do you mean, like, bulletholes and blood and such on the characters? How do you know they're not in?

[biXen]

*scratches head*

I'm gonna quote Maddieman here.... "Elaborating isn't your strong point, is it?"

To elaborate, what the hell do you mean? images/icons/smile.gif

[FullMetalJacket]

Originally posted by j:
By character decals, do you mean, like, bulletholes and blood and such on the characters? How do you know they're not in? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bulletholes or "Squibs" as I call 'em, are for some reason quite rare in games, only appearing in SWAT3, SOF1&2, and Hitman1 IIRC.
But one of our screenshots showed squibs. It was one where a guy dressed in blue and armed with an AK47 got perforated. You could see squibs and nice blood effects on his arm and leg. images/icons/smile.gif

[SkavenRMD]

FullMetalJacket;
But one of our screenshots showed squibs. It was one where a guy dressed in blue and armed with an AK47 got perforated. You could see squibs and nice blood effects on his arm and leg. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FMJ, yeah, I remember you gushing about "blood effects occurring exactly where the bullet hits".. well, technically it's true. It was true with Max Payne 1 too: the bullethit_character particle effect was started where the bullet collided with the character. This also happens in Max Payne 2.

But no; we don't have skin decals.

*pauses for a few seconds to let the groaning, booing and hissing fade*

I have asked our programmers about it and they just scratch their head and say there's no good, fast way to do it; either it would use horrible amounts of CPU (especially when more skin decals accumilate) or require some horrible texture allocation kludge to work, and they don't want to go through that.

This is probably why they were removed from Hitman 2, and why only few games have it. (Akari, if your friend says its simple, well, I wonder.)

Wishful thinking, I thought hey, maybe I can create an "object space" particle effect that kinda looks like a bullet wound, and gets parented to the bone the bullet hits. No, that won't work, either, said the programmers. Bullet hits cannot be parented to bones - even though if you start the effect from the bone itself, it does get parented. I wondered why. The programmers refused to explain, and looked insulted.

I wanted skin decals as much as you do, but what can you do... *pouts* *jaw trembles* WAAHHH!!WE DON'T HAVE SKIN DECALS!! WITHOUT THEM THE GAME IS NOTHING!!! http://www.modplug.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crying2.gif graemlins/brickwall.gif

images/icons/blush.gif *regains composure* images/icons/grin.gif

But then, the designers said that Max Payne isn't that much about gore, anyway. And was there skin decals or not, you're going to get tons of cool stuff. You'll see. images/icons/smile.gif

[ 09-05-2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: SkavenRMD ]

[MikaRMD]

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
But then, the designers said that Max Payne isn't that much about gore, anyway. And was there skin decals or not, you're going to get tons of cool stuff. You'll see. images/icons/smile.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What he said.

The Cool Stuff (TM) will be both stylish and tasteful.

[asker]

Rogue Spear, and Aliens vs Predator (the first one) had to-the-pixel-precise bullet holes left in people when you shot 'em. The hole appeared right where the bullet hit. Aliens vs Predator 1 seriously is NOT a system requirements hog; it can't be THAT bad to implement. Even when you shot a dead Predator fifty or sixty times and left dozens of bright green holes in it, there was no performance difference.

[ADM]

I loved SOF2's decals. Grabbing a machine gun and spraying an enemy and everywhere the bullet hit left a bullet wound in the enemy was graemlins/love.gif

But after 5 minutes it became boring. So I'd rather good gameplay and no gore then heaps of gore and no gameplay.

[biXen]

Remedy has a certain standard on everything they do, if it can't be done as well as they want it to look and still be fast and function well they'll probably throw it. From my experience with them and features anyway images/icons/smile.gif

[Akari]

But what he did was make it use the vertex (like vertex shading sorta) instead of a alpha mapped image. That's possible. And quick.

PS Rem: I have added decals in one of my mods by making a projectile appear after death, and it's slighty above the AXIS images/icons/tongue.gif Cheap...but I like decals alot images/icons/tongue.gif

[Akari]

http://www.massassi.net/ec/images/12571.jpg

Here's a shot.

[FullMetalJacket]

Akari, what the heck game is that from?!

[Komb.at]

Originally posted by Akari:
Here's a shot. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*cough* pun *cough* graemlins/dopefish.gif

[theHunted]

Originally posted by Akari:
Here's a shot. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and where do you want to tell us a character-decal is located on that image?

[ 09-05-2003, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: theHunted ]

[KillJoy]

I assume he means the blood splattered all over the ground and the guy's face. It looks like it only registers on the skull though.

[Akari]

Nope. It also does the hands, torso...anywere.

[FullMetalJacket]

But where the hell is that screenshot from?

[Yatta]

Originally posted by FullMetalJacket:
But where the hell is that screenshot from? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My best guess would be Soldier of Fortune 2, since that's one hell of a gory game.

[needhelp]

Half Life 2 has it - see below.
That screen posted by Akari is from Chrome. By the way that game blows. I played a demo of it the other day.
http://www.hostmysig.com/data/needhelp/128952.php
They also showed this screen in PC Gamer and pointed out the bullet hole in the creature.

[PlayfulPuppy]

Easiest way I could think of doing decals would be to get the nearest 9 verticies (Approximatly 4 quads) and use those vertex references to draw the blood decal on. Since you'd be referencing the verticies from the actual model itself, bones wouldn't be a problem.

Main problem with this method, however, is that you'd have to have an awful lot of connectivity information for all the verticies, and a quick way to traverse through it. That could prove to be one bastard of a memory hog.

[FullMetalJacket]

Um, I've played SOF1 and 2 excessively and that shot Akari posted is from neither of those games.
The dead guy looks like a Tank out of Quake 2!!! WHAT THE HELL GAME IS IT FROM?! images/icons/frown.gif

[KillJoy]

Chrome

[needhelp]

Originally posted by FullMetalJacket:

The dead guy looks like a Tank out of Quake 2!!! WHAT THE HELL GAME IS IT FROM?! images/icons/frown.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by needhelp:

That screen posted by Akari is from Chrome. By the way that game blows. I played a demo of it the other day.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you read the posts?

[Akari]

Rem...try this


When I was crackin MGS2 Sub's textures, I found out that they just used animatied bmps for their decals. When Solidus touches his bloody eye after the Harrier battle, it changes the hands bmp to stain_hand_tex bmp.

[PlayfulPuppy]

Originally posted by Akari:
Rem...try this


When I was crackin MGS2 Sub's textures, I found out that they just used animatied bmps for their decals. When Solidus touches his bloody eye after the Harrier battle, it changes the hands bmp to stain_hand_tex bmp. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's just a texture sub-replacement, that's easy to do.

Problem is, however, that to do that for a enemy in the game, any texture replacements would alter the textures on any other enemies sharing the same skin, and the ONLY way to get around that is to have a seperate skin for EVERY SINGLE enemy in the level, and as you should know that's just not feasible. :\

[Jokke_r]

hmm doom3 has this feature.. don't ask me how i know. not like it would be a secret that they have but still...


bullet holes tend to look pretty stupid. if you get shot through a leather jacket you would not actually see a bullet hole like in most games. if would just be blood around the hole. and a pretty simple (not as good looking) way to do this would be somekinda vertex shader. i dunno what it really is. but it would not include a actual texture for the wound it would only colorize some of the triangles in the area of where one was shot. (goldeneye 64, Perfect Dark) im gonna dig up a picture to explain

[Akari]

Yeah I know what it is

As far as to your Max Payne point though...

well let's see...what the hell did they do....damn it...hmmmmmmmm...good point...stupid MAX-FX engine images/icons/tongue.gif

[Akari]

I owed both gamers dude. I have done it my self PC wise too. I know what exactly what youy mean I just what to "re-agrange" someone's face for them images/icons/smile.gif

[PlayfulPuppy]

Originally posted by Jokke_r:
hmm doom3 has this feature.. don't ask me how i know. not like it would be a secret that they have but still... <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Out of what I can tell they're just using a projected texture from the point of impact. It's kinda memory intensive, but if implemented correctly (This means planning it as a feature FROM THE BEGINNING, it's not really a cheap hack you can just throw over the top) then it can work well.

That's to my understanding, at least.

Decals are very possible to do, it's just that out of what I can gather the Max Payne engine, as is, hasn't been designed to support it, and would make it both ugly and flaky to throw in at this point.

[SkavenRMD]

^^^ PlayfulPuppy;

Like you said it; that's why. images/icons/smile.gif It's a simple thing - but only if it's there from the start.

needhelp;
Half Life 2 has it - see below.
http://www.hostmysig.com/data/needhelp/128952.php
They also showed this screen in PC Gamer and pointed out the bullet hole in the creature.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But are you sure the feature is there? Has Gabe Newell mentioned it in the interviews himself? I'm just asking because I have previously witnessed (p)reviewers "seeing things" that aren't really there, including in our own game. Wishful thinking? Or maybe just unfamiliarity with the realities of game development.

(I haven't read all the interviews myself; I have watched most of the Bink videos out there, but it's hard to tell.)

[ 09-06-2003, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: SkavenRMD ]

[PetriRMD]

Guys,

A game like Max Payne is not really about a single feature. The overall stylistics are much more important.

There's a gazillion of small nice to have features that we play around with, sometimes even take prototypes pretty far (like the laser sight on the Desert Eagle in Max1) and then end up dropping because we either feel that they don't necessarily fit the theme and style of the game, or wouldn't be able to execute to a level of polish that we demand from the game.

(Which is why we're nowadays so stingy with the screenshots. Until the game is golden, we're tweaking and changing things, and we're trying to avoid misleading people with things that might not make it into the final game).

Max Payne is not about enemies gibbing or intestines flailing. If that's the thing that floats your boat, then I'd recommend picking up or re-playing SOF2.

However, if you get kicks out of extremely stylistic slowmotion gun ballet, being able to dive into a room, whirl around and pull two handguns into the face of the badguy sending him flying over the railing in a slowmotion spectacle of death, then you should probably consider picking up Max2 images/icons/wink.gif

Basically, we're not out to copy every feature that some other game has, we're doing all we can to make the best out of the unique combination of gameplay that we have.

[shadow_ninja]

However, if you get kicks out of extremely stylistic slowmotion gun ballet, being able to dive into a room, whirl around and pull two handguns into the face of the badguy sending him flying over the railing in a slowmotion spectacle of death, then you should probably consider picking up Max2
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AMEN to that!!!!!!!!! images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif
thats why i love this game! images/icons/smile.gif

[DET]

Originally posted by PetriRMD:
However, if you get kicks out of extremely stylistic slowmotion gun ballet, being able to dive into a room, whirl around and pull two handguns into the face of the badguy sending him flying over the railing in a slowmotion spectacle of death, then you should probably consider picking up Max2 images/icons/wink.gif
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/bowdown.gif

[SkavenRMD]

On the other hand...

http://www.futurecrew.org/skaven/share/skin-decals-in-max-payne.gif


(DISLCAIMER: the creators of the original strip (http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-08-13&res=l) retain the copyright for the image. This modification was made for humorous purposes only.)

[Jokke_r]

OMG LOL.. hahah that was great...

[Kevin's girl]

Hey that was funny! images/icons/smile.gif

[needhelp]

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:


needhelp;
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Half Life 2 has it - see below.
http://www.hostmysig.com/data/needhelp/128952.php
They also showed this screen in PC Gamer and pointed out the bullet hole in the creature.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But are you sure the feature is there? Has Gabe Newell mentioned it in the interviews himself? I'm just asking because I have previously witnessed (p)reviewers "seeing things" that aren't really there, including in our own game. Wishful thinking? Or maybe just unfamiliarity with the realities of game development.

(I haven't read all the interviews myself; I have watched most of the Bink videos out there, but it's hard to tell.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See the PC Gamer issue June or July. I forget which one. I'm working from memory here but I'm pretty darn sure that they said bullet decals are in there.

I also remember PC Gamer using the picture I posted and clearly pointing out that bullet hole decal on the creature.

Also see the picture for yourself it is certainly visible. Just like you guys did for Max Payne they might take it out....who knows?

By the way I am sure as F**KING HELL getting Max Payne 2 so don't you guys worry. images/icons/grin.gif
I loved Max Payne and Max Payne 2 can only be better.

PS:
I'd definitely have great gameplay than a couple of cool features in a sh*t game. I was just contributing to the conversation....umm...whining. images/icons/tongue.gif

[ 09-06-2003, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: needhelp ]

[FullMetalJacket]

Originally posted by shadow_ninja:
AMEN to that!!!!!!!!! images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif
thats why i love this game! images/icons/smile.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ditto. images/icons/smile.gif

[SkavenRMD]

Originally posted by needhelp:
See the PC Gamer issue June or July. I forget which one. I'm working from memory here but I'm pretty darn sure that they said bullet decals are in there.

I also remember PC Gamer using the picture I posted and clearly pointing out that bullet hole decal on the creature.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have seen that particular preview. What I meant was that previewers haven't sometimes seen the game in action. They've only seen screenshots, maybe a couple of videos, and read a press release. They sometimes make "educated guesses" based on those. I've seen this happen with Max Payne 2 as well. (and the first Max Payne, too)

This is why I wanted to hear / see an actual confirmation from Gabe Newell regarding this.

Also see the picture for yourself it is certainly visible.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, but it could just be in the texture. images/icons/smile.gif

PS:I'd definitely have great gameplay than a couple of cool features in a sh*t game. I was just contributing to the conversation....umm...whining. images/icons/tongue.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh but then, why not take both? You could have both great features and great gameplay in one game. It just.. might.. take a while.. to.. complete (eh, George?). images/icons/smile.gif

(now, take into account how many years we've had to work on Max Payne 2)

[Kev_Hectic]

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
On the other hand...

http://www.futurecrew.org/skaven/share/skin-decals-in-max-payne.gif


(DISLCAIMER: the creators of the original strip (http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-08-13&res=l) retain the copyright for the image. This modification was made for humorous purposes only.) <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh, I don't usually like Penny Arcades comics, but that's pretty funny images/icons/smile.gif

[Joe Siegler]

Don't forget this classic.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2001-07-30

[Yatta]

Originally posted by Joe3DR:
Don't forget this classic.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2001-07-30 <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You posted the same one a while ago in the Post Thread I think. Indeed a classic. images/icons/grin.gif

[Hudson]

Originally posted by ADoomedMarine:
I loved SOF2's decals. Grabbing a machine gun and spraying an enemy and everywhere the bullet hit left a bullet wound in the enemy was graemlins/love.gif

But after 5 minutes it became boring. So I'd rather good gameplay and no gore then heaps of gore and no gameplay. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I loved SoF2, however your right about the replay value. If by chance we get a SoF3 im hoping they take it more of a tactical level (i.e. Operation Flashpoint). But yeah, the gore fxcking rules images/icons/grin.gif

[Hudson]

Originally posted by Joe3DR:
Don't forget this classic.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2001-07-30 <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Haha yeah man I remember that images/icons/grin.gif