GlDuke vs EDuke [Archive] - 3D Realms Forums

The Stinger

07-27-2000, 07:16 AM

How compatible are they.If I remember corectly GlDuke works for both 1.3 and 1.4/1.5!But Eduke only for 1.3!
And does Eduke work on every TC!

The Stinger

Guest

07-27-2000, 10:00 AM

They aren't compatible at all. And from the info in your post, it looks like you got everything backwards.

To the best of my knowledge, eDuke will not work on v1.3 but REQUIRES v1.5.

eDuke is specifically designed for TCs. It should handle all TCs that run with v1.3 thru v1.5, but allows for greater con control, meaning that there will soon be TCs with enhanced con mods that will require eDuke to run.

GlDuke, on the other hand, will be unable to handle most of the currebt TCs, and will be totally unable to handle TCs created for eDuke. GlDuke can't use CON files at all, so it won't be able to run any TC, add-on, or user map that has modified cons. Maybe they'll eventually find a way to make use of CON files, but it'll be a while.

Lastly, GlDuke seems nowhere near completion, while the first version of eDuke is supposed to be released sometime this week. By the time GlDuke is released, it will already be obsolete, and the guys making it will be playing catch-up.

The Stinger

07-28-2000, 12:54 AM

Eh..I meant 1.4/1.5!

The Stinger

Guest

07-31-2000, 03:49 AM

It sounds like neither of you have any of your facts straight.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>eDuke is specifically designed for TCs. It should handle all TCs that run with v1.3 thru v1.5<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It'll only handle TC's for ver 1.5, since you can only patch to eDuke with 1.5. Of course you could always go through and redo the cons, art, and other stuff for 1.5 and eDuke, which is pointless unless you're not even close to finishing a TC.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>GlDuke, on the other hand, will be unable to handle most of the currebt TCs, and will be totally unable to handle TCs created for eDuke.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been reading up a bit on both GLduke and eDuke and so far this looks mostly wrong. Who said GLduke won't be able to handle current TCs? The glDuke site said that it'll be able to handle TCs 100%.

I'm not sure if GLduke will be able to use eDuke but I am sure it'll run all the other versions of duke fine.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>GlDuke can't use CON files at all, so it won't be able to run any TC, add-on, or user map that has modified cons. Maybe they'll eventually find a way to make use of CON files, but it'll be a while.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who said GLduke won't be able to use the .cons? Lets hope it will or it won't be much of a mod. It would just be duke source, a useless application, and nothing to run duke. The source uses the .cons to define what the game should do and have. Without the .cons there would be no enemy AI, items, duke, etc.

I suggest you go here right now and set your heads straight http://vapps.emuforce.com/glduke/

I wish The Stinger would stop posting about eDuke and glDuke cuz he doesn't know what he's talking about. I suggest you go read up about this stuff and figure out the con basics.

If any of the veterans (Veldrik, Conan, Cyborg, and others) find me wrong on anything please correct me.

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Disclaimer:In no way am I or this post responsible for any of your actions. This includes bodily harm, death, or intoxication of underage squirrels.

Usurper

07-31-2000, 02:03 PM

They say a lot of things. Will they happen? Probably not. These are the same people who said they'd have a dukematch demo out at the end of May. They had no idea what they were getting into. Their program still doesn't display regular duke maps correctly. They lied about 3DR "approving" them, later to say that they were "tolerated". They have to recreate every aspect of gameplay from scratch. The point wasn't to make a prog to play mods with; they just want antialiased graphics.

Guest

07-31-2000, 05:11 PM

HappyBoner...

eDuke is a new game.exe for Duke3D. Think of it as Duke3D 1.6. It should be 100% backwards compatible. Just as one can run 1.3 maps with Atomic/Plutonium, one should also be able to run earlier maps and cons with eDuke. At the outside, it might take a conversion utility to upgrade an older map, but I don't think that even that will be neccesary.

A player will only absolutely need eDuke to run games made with eDuke's enhanced cons. This is no different than needing Atomic/Plutonium to run games made with and for Atomic/Plutonium.

"Who said GlDuke won't be able to use cons?" I'm pretty sure it was 3DR who said that. This is not, as I understand it, a technical problem, but a legal problem. If the GlDuke guys find a way to use Cons they will probably be in violation some 3DR patent or copyright. Most of the existing TCs use modified Cons. If the game engine can't handle those cons, then the TC will not run as intended. Ergo, GlDuke won't run (Properly) any of the existing Duke TCs.

"Lets hope it will [use cons] or it won't be much of a mod. It would just be duke source, a useless application, and nothing to run duke. The source uses the .cons to define what the game should do and have. Without the .cons there would be no enemy AI, items, duke, etc."

Exactly my point. GlDuke won't be able to do much at all, while eDuke will be tremendously useful to anyone who loves making or playing TCs.

Guest

07-31-2000, 07:16 PM

First of all why is this thread named GlDuke vs. Eduke? They're not in competition. Hopefully GLduke will be able to use Eduke. Nothing is making sense in this thread anymore, I'm not even sure if I'm getting my info right.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>eDuke is a new game.exe for Duke3D. Think of it as Duke3D 1.6. It should be 100% backwards compatible. Just as one can run 1.3 maps with Atomic/Plutonium, one should also be able to run earlier maps and cons with eDuke. At the outside, it might take a conversion utility to upgrade an older map, but I don't think that even that will be neccesary.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is just confusing, it sounds like your right about some things but you wrong about whats right. Confusing eh? Well, eDuke will not be 100% backwards compatible with all .cons. eDuke will not be compatible with 1.3 cons because eDuke is patched to 1.5. Also, I know it won't take a conversion utility for maps.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This is not, as I understand it, a technical problem, but a legal problem. If the GlDuke guys find a way to use Cons they will probably be in violation some 3DR patent or copyright. Most of the existing TCs use modified Cons. If the game engine can't handle those cons, then the TC will not run as intended. Ergo, GlDuke won't run (Properly) any of the existing Duke TCs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think I worded my question right. I shoulda said "Who said GLduke won't be able to handle cons?" This means GLduke won't modify the .cons so TC's will be able to run using GLduke. GLduke will simply make duke look nicer graphics wise, and maybe add a couple other things. I believe the person who is making this used to make emulators. They are simply trying to emulate the game's environment with more graphics, I think.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Exactly my point. GlDuke won't be able to do much at all, while eDuke will be tremendously useful to anyone who loves making or playing TCs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, my bad. I should of said that GLduke will be able to access the cons. GLduke should be able to access the cons, or else there'll be no way to play it.

Anyways, I don't know what to think about GLduke. It seems like the project isn't being done very professionally, even though most emulation projects are like that. Oh well, we'll find out sooner or later. But I think they should release screenshots weekly to show how much progress has been done.

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Disclaimer:In no way am I or this post responsible for any of your actions. This includes bodily harm, death, or intoxication of squirrels.

cyborg

07-31-2000, 07:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This is just confusing, it sounds like your right about some things but you wrong about whats right. Confusing eh? Well, eDuke will not be 100% backwards compatible with all .cons. eDuke will not be compatible with 1.3 cons because eDuke is patched to 1.5. Also, I know it won't take a conversion utility for maps.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong. Eduke will always be 100% compatable because none of the language's previous functions have been altered or removed. There is little difference between the CON language in 1.3 and 1.5 apart from new commands.

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RTCM (http://dukertcm.totalconversions.com) - Cyborg (http://dukertcm.totalconversions.com/Cyborg)

-->Your fault<--

Matteus

08-01-2000, 01:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by HappyBoner:
First of all why is this thread named GlDuke vs. Eduke? They're not in competition. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good point. They are not in competetion. They are two different things.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by HappyBoner:
Again, my bad. I should of said that GLduke will be able to access the cons. GLduke should be able to access the cons, or else there'll be no way to play it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. If they can't get the game (including CONs) working exactly like Duke, then there is no point.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>From http://vapps.emuforce.com (for some reaason not found on the official GLDuke site)

I'm back from reading a lot of messages about glDuke on various message boards. WTF? Why all you people are against glDuke? It won't hurt anyone, so why?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>[/b]
I don't think anybody is against it... I think people have doubts about whether you (Vapps) knows what you are getting into. For example, see my comments on the estimated work that you posted.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>From http://vapps.emuforce.com (not found on the official GLDuke site)
It's not possible? Take a look at this:

Map Rendering: Possible, got all the specs in BUILD help file.

ART file format: Possible, info is also included in the BUILD archive.

GRP file format: So easy to reverse-enginner. A baby could do it.

RTS file format: Also easy. It's the same as Doom WAD format.

ANM file format: Some info on this is also available, so it's possible.

VOC file format: Can be converted easily.
[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed. These all should be do-able. Not easy, but do-able.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
DMO file format: Info on D3D v1.3D is avaliable. Info on v1.4/v1.5 is avaliable though but it's not enough. Need to reverse-enginner here.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is way harder than you think. The Demo format is the saved inputs from the players. You will have to process these exactly as Duke does. That implies a whole ton of work. And, if you don't do it exactly correctly, the game will go out of sync (at best).

I'd suggest that GLDuke not support demos. This would save you a ton of hassle and not many people would actually miss it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
CON parsing/compiling: A LOT of information is avaliable at various places. So it's possible to emulate the CON language.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is possible. But, again, this is harder than you think.

There's a lot going on behind all of the CON commands that will need to work exactly the same as Duke does. So, it's not just the language that needs to be emulated, but how the language is processed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

AI and game rules: This information is all containted in the CONs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Completely incorrect. There is lots in Duke that is not accesible from CONs. (that's what EDuke is all about: exposing more control over these items)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Game menus, and general behavior: This can be guessed easily. Don't need to be a genius to know where the menus and game messages are appearing and what's the bullet needs to do when you're pressing FIRE.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, you do need to be a genius. You have to emulate the bullets EXACTLY the way Duke does it. This will not be easy.

What about Sprites? You totally left out discussion of sprites.
How will they be displayed (easiest).
How will you 'connect' them with the CON code (harder)?
How will you process colision detection (hardest)?

What about weapons? How are they displayed? How do they fire? How do you generate sprites and stay in sync?

Remember, you must process all this with EXACTLY the same results that Duke does if you want to support Demos.

And you must get damn close if you want Duke players to think it's just like Duke.

I don't thinke people are against GLDuke. I DO think that experienced game developers (myself included) have serious doubts that it can be pulled off.

But I'd like to see it done. Go for it.

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Matt Saettler
-The Last Person on Earth who can compile Duke(TM)

Guest

08-01-2000, 03:31 PM

quote:
"First of all why is this thread named GlDuke vs. Eduke? They're not in competition. Hopefully GLduke will be able to use Eduke."

Okay, let's make it real simple.
eDuke is a new executable which replaces the existing duke3d.exe
Likewise, glDuke is a new executable, which will replace the existing duke3d.exe
You can only use one or the other. They are, in fact, competing game engines. They are wholly incompatible with one another. You can't run eDuke with glDuke, and vice versa.

quote:
"Well, eDuke will not be 100% backwards compatible with all .cons. eDuke will not be compatible with 1.3 cons because eDuke is patched to 1.5. Also, I know it won't take a conversion utility for maps."

Why would you say something as silly as that? Just because you need v1.5 doesn't mean eDuke isn't compatible with 1.3 maps and cons. eDuke has all the original cons and will run those maps and cons just fine, just like v1.5 does. It's an upgrade, with new features, but it still has all the old features that earlier versions of Duke require.

And what's this nonsense about a conversion utility? Did you have to convert your old 1.3 maps when you upgraded to 1.5? No. Nothing needs to be converted.

Let's get this straight, when I say backwards compatible, I mean that eDuke will run maps and mods from earlier releases of Duke3D, not the other way around. Earlier releases of Duke will NOT be able to run eDuke maps and cons. If you want to run an eDuke map, con, TC, etc, you will need eDuke to play it.

quote:
"GLduke should be able to access the cons, or else there'll be no way to play it."

Believe me, glDuke won't be able to access and implement the data in the cons without using code that is almost identical to 3DR's copyrighted code. It ain't gonna happen.

I could go on, but I've already addressed a couple of other glDuke problems in the regular Duke forum. Check it out if you want.
http://www.3drealms.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/002495.html