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Old 07-17-2009, 02:11 PM   #561
Sang

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Re: New id Game - Rage
I think both methods are cool if done right.
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Old 07-17-2009, 03:03 PM   #562
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Re: New id Game - Rage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokke_r View Post
They are a better gameplay element than regenerating health, with regenerating health you don't ever have the same sense of urgency and danger.
With regenarating health you will never be runnign around for many minutes with 5hp of health knowing that the next encounter might be your last and you are forced to play with caution, progressing slowly since you do not know what is behing the next corner. Even though you might end up with a trial and error situation where you have to play a certain segment many times before you beat it, it's still more rewarding and exciting than hiding behind a barrel for 10 seconds waiting for your health to regenerate. :/
Problem is that it's harder to design for the level designers, especially in a free-ish open world where specific conflicts are harder to predict. With health packs you run the risk of creating either a) situations that are impossible for the player to get through resulting in much frustration and loading of a previous save game, or b) making the game too easy in order to avoid a).
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Old 07-17-2009, 03:22 PM   #563
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Re: New id Game - Rage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokke_r View Post
They are a better gameplay element than regenerating health, with regenerating health you don't ever have the same sense of urgency and danger.
With regenarating health you will never be runnign around for many minutes with 5hp of health knowing that the next encounter might be your last and you are forced to play with caution, progressing slowly since you do not know what is behing the next corner. Even though you might end up with a trial and error situation where you have to play a certain segment many times before you beat it, it's still more rewarding and exciting than hiding behind a barrel for 10 seconds waiting for your health to regenerate. :/
well thats the same discussion as "always".
its the dilema between chalange and fluidity ^^.
although i have to say as for regenerating health, it massivly depends on the "kind of game" you make, and im kinda miffed that its the current "have to have"
idk why we couldnt have a mix of both, to prevent the game from abandoning you with to little health , nor plastering the suroundings with arbitrary healthpacks, make a threshold under which you may regenerate to a less vulnerable state, but cap the regen to keep you from abusing it.

thats my problem with all of the mechanisms that evolved gaming from "chalenging to the extend to prevent you from finishing it" to "interactive movie" they are now.
Of course you can argue "don't use it, dont abuse it" on the otherhand they generate slopier game design , sometimes "forcing" you to use them, which always massivly lowers my threshold to keep using them.
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Old 07-17-2009, 03:29 PM   #564
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Re: New id Game - Rage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokke_r View Post
They are a better gameplay element than regenerating health, with regenerating health you don't ever have the same sense of urgency and danger.
With regenarating health you will never be runnign around for many minutes with 5hp of health knowing that the next encounter might be your last and you are forced to play with caution, progressing slowly since you do not know what is behing the next corner. Even though you might end up with a trial and error situation where you have to play a certain segment many times before you beat it, it's still more rewarding and exciting than hiding behind a barrel for 10 seconds waiting for your health to regenerate. :/
I rather not die 100 times to beat a level since I'm stuck with 5HP and there are no health packs. See Call of Duty 1. Veteran mode is oh so fun on those levels like Pegasus Bridge where the enemy shoots for you rather than your parnters.

It all depends on the way the maps work and how the game works. There is nothing conceptually wrong with Regenerating Health. CoD2 or CoD4 would be complete ass rape games if it was based on health kits.

More fun = greater reward than just trial and error. I've gone through trial and error situations and it's more frustration than "OH **** YEAH I DID IT WOOO!"
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Old 07-17-2009, 03:53 PM   #565
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Re: New id Game - Rage
There were few missions in CoD4 that ass raped you, the difficulty varied a lot.
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Old 07-17-2009, 04:01 PM   #566
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Re: New id Game - Rage
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZuljinRaynor View Post
I rather not die 100 times to beat a level since I'm stuck with 5HP and there are no health packs. See Call of Duty 1. Veteran mode is oh so fun on those levels like Pegasus Bridge where the enemy shoots for you rather than your parnters.
That's not really a fair argument, I think Veteran was very much intended to be a difficulty mode only for those hard enough to beat it. If Pegasus Bridge and, I guess, Pavlov House bother you on Veteran then you should play them on an easier skill.

Quote:
CoD2 or CoD4 would be complete ass rape games if it was based on health kits.
True, I found COD2 to have hugely challenging parts despite the regenerating health and I guess only being able to rely on autosaves also made the player a bit more careful about wildly diving into fights. So it's really the same effect as having only 5 HP and proceeding very carefully.

For example, in COD2 there's a level where you have to defend a bunker on a hill. It's a level that is VERY challenging and I had to reload it countless times, eventually I just ended up using cover as much as possible and it was hugely satisfying to finally win the battle. Seems like the same effect that you anti-regenhealth zealots claim only appears in games with health packs.

The problem has never been that regenerating health is "unrealistic", it's that people feel it makes things too easy but I don't think so.. I find games with regenerating health to still be pretty darn challenging, except they play more fluid, which as Pansa suggested, has become an important element in a game for me.
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Old 07-17-2009, 04:05 PM   #567
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Re: New id Game - Rage
That is absolutely amazing, any higher-quality scans ?
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Old 07-17-2009, 04:21 PM   #568
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Re: New id Game - Rage
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Originally Posted by Sang View Post
That's not really a fair argument, I think Veteran was very much intended to be a difficulty mode only for those hard enough to beat it. If Pegasus Bridge and, I guess, Pavlov House bother you on Veteran then you should play them on an easier skill.
I already beat the whole game on Hardened. What was there to do next? Play it on Veteran. At least after the car ride in UO on the first map they were kind enough to give you full HP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sang View Post
The problem has never been that regenerating health is "unrealistic", it's that people feel it makes things too easy but I don't think so.. I find games with regenerating health to still be pretty darn challenging, except they play more fluid, which as Pansa suggested, has become an important element in a game for me.
It's not like health packs aren't unrealistic. No health system is realistic. The closest to realistic is the MGS3 heal your body system.
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Old 07-17-2009, 05:12 PM   #569
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Re: New id Game - Rage
Damn, those screens look sweet! NEED BETTER QUALITY!
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Old 07-17-2009, 05:44 PM   #570
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Re: New id Game - Rage
I'm going to swing by Barnes and Nobles on the way out to see if they have it. If they do I'lll get it and if they still aren't available I'll take some pics for you guys (12.3 mp so they'll be hq) or scan them if I don't feel lazy.
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Old 07-17-2009, 05:46 PM   #571
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Re: New id Game - Rage
I like those, the fidelity is really above the competition. Thanks to id Tech 5 & the great artist over at id Software.

BUT, it's only the visuals so far that have gotten me interested in this game. I want to know what the selling points are story / gameplay wise.
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Old 07-18-2009, 07:09 PM   #573
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Re: New id Game - Rage
^ Um, can you really post scans like that? I think that magazine issue is being currently sold.
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Old 07-18-2009, 07:17 PM   #574
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Re: New id Game - Rage
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/1749/img0001med.jpg
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/5818/img0002med.jpg
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/2374/img0003med.jpg
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5809/img0004med.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/6846/img0005med.jpg
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8308/img0006med.jpg
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2279/img0007med.jpg
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/8068/img0008med.jpg
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/1707/img0009med.jpg
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6408/img0010med.jpg

Here are some medium resolution versions of the scans if you dont want to download the larger ones.

---------- Post added at 02:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo Black View Post
^ Um, can you really post scans like that? I think that magazine issue is being currently sold.
It will be fine,magazine scans get of upcoming games get posted around the net all the time.
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Old 07-18-2009, 07:27 PM   #575
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Re: New id Game - Rage
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It will be fine,magazine scans get of upcoming games get posted around the net all the time.
I'm sure they get posted, but is that really allowed on the 3DR forums, specifically? You should PM a mod/admin before you post that kind of stuff.
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Old 07-18-2009, 07:53 PM   #576
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Re: New id Game - Rage
"Doom 3 was too long."

I don't think so. Doom 3 was intense, but if you play it without sound it turns out to be less scary, or if you play it without reading the e-mails and the PDA's it will of course be a shorter experience. Doom 3 was long enough and I liked that, it was a focused game with a good background story. Now, that statement makes me worry about the lenght of RAGE.
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Old 07-18-2009, 08:53 PM   #577
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Re: New id Game - Rage
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"Doom 3 was too long."

I don't think so. Doom 3 was intense, but if you play it without sound it turns out to be less scary, or if you play it without reading the e-mails and the PDA's it will of course be a shorter experience. Doom 3 was long enough and I liked that, it was a focused game with a good background story. Now, that statement makes me worry about the lenght of RAGE.
Yeah, it feels like games are just getting shorter and shorter nowadays. Except RPGs, they're still pretty long. But FPSs are just getting too short.

I mean, I know that some shooters can just drag on, but I really appreciate a good single player campaign that takes me longer than just a few days to finish.

I hope Doom 4 is of pretty good length. Hopefully, it will have some replay value to it aswell.
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Old 07-18-2009, 08:56 PM   #578
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Re: New id Game - Rage
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Now, that statement makes me worry about the lenght of RAGE.
Modern shooters are short. The last I beat was COJ: Bound in Blood and it took me under 6h. I wouldn't be surprised if Rage's content is on the 10h range. Maybe the exploration will extend it.
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Old 07-18-2009, 11:57 PM   #579
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Re: New id Game - Rage
I love short games. Too many games worth playing! Short games means I can fit more in :P Plus short means less filler.
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Old 07-19-2009, 09:54 AM   #580
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Re: New id Game - Rage
Yeah, but for a game that costs $50 it better be good. I enjoyed Max Payne & 2 - the pacing was perfect, but a lot felt they were short. Better short & quality than longer with filler.
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Old 07-19-2009, 10:08 AM   #581
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Re: New id Game - Rage
Agreed. IMO the Max Payne games, the new CoJ... PREY... they had the perfect length for the story they were telling. Making a game longer by adding in filler levels can really kill the pacing and progression of the story.
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Old 07-19-2009, 10:22 AM   #582
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Re: New id Game - Rage
This sounds exactly like Fallout 3 O.o

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but the similarities are just surreal.
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Old 07-19-2009, 10:22 AM   #583
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Re: New id Game - Rage
If the game is fun (though short) you'll be replaying it more often than a much longer game anyway so it all balances out.
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Old 07-19-2009, 12:21 PM   #584
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Re: New id Game - Rage
Seeing it has lots of things: it's a FPS with Races you can compete and a full story; it has chances to explore in all of it and not becoming a filled game.. and subsequently giving some hours of gameplay and exploring. It isn't just a new shooter only, it's an open world game too.

I liked PREY lenght, short, but it was perfect for its story, I agree. The same goes of the Max Payne games, those are one of the few games I keep playing since they first came out.

id made me feel inside the game in Doom 3. It wasn't RPG or Open World, but those audiologs and e-mails made you feel in the middle of something. I know some people met the game with mixed feelings because of its issues. So, I hope they're smart enough to keep what was cool from it and change what was 'wrong' for Rage. Up to now I'm impressed. I know they always get it right .
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Old 07-19-2009, 12:32 PM   #585
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Re: New id Game - Rage
i feel like it's going to end up much like crysis'-open-world instead of stalker's-open-world
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Old 07-19-2009, 01:16 PM   #586
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Thumbs up Re: New id Game - Rage
Damn, this is going to be the best looking game when it's out.

I also like how Carmack admits to his mistakes in Doom 3. Thanks for sharing the scans here!
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Old 07-19-2009, 02:06 PM   #587
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Re: New id Game - Rage
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This sounds exactly like Fallout 3 O.o

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but the similarities are just surreal.
Have you played Fallout 3? If so, they are nothing alike.
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Old 07-19-2009, 03:21 PM   #588
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Re: New id Game - Rage
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This sounds exactly like Fallout 3 O.o

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but the similarities are just surreal.
Well yeah but you've gotta be fair here.. surely any post-apocalyptic game is going to bear some resemblance to Fallout. Like how FPS'es were Doom clones back then, or how urban sandbox games are almost destined to be GTA clones to some extent, a game taking place in a post-apocalyptic world will most likely partially feel like a Fallout clone.

Then again Fallout didn't have the racing and stuff..
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Old 07-19-2009, 03:49 PM   #589
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Re: New id Game - Rage
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Have you played Fallout 3? If so, they are nothing alike.
Yeah I've played and beaten FO3. In fact i'm playing it again.. and that feature list that was posted screamed "Fallout 3 inspired!".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sang View Post
Well yeah but you've gotta be fair here.. surely any post-apocalyptic game is going to bear some resemblance to Fallout. Like how FPS'es were Doom clones back then, or how urban sandbox games are almost destined to be GTA clones to some extent, a game taking place in a post-apocalyptic world will most likely partially feel like a Fallout clone.

Then again Fallout didn't have the racing and stuff..
I can understand that, and I am not saying it's going to be a FO3 clone with vehicles.. but when you announce a feature list like that, without giving any other incite into the game, you have to admit it sounds like they're trying to attract the FO3 audience.
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Old 07-19-2009, 04:21 PM   #590
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Re: New id Game - Rage
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you have to admit it sounds like they're trying to attract the FO3 audience.
How so, exactly? (Not saying you have a burden of proof but it'll be easier to discuss your ideas if you are more specific about them )
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Old 07-19-2009, 04:42 PM   #591
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Re: New id Game - Rage
Specifically the open area sandbox type gameplay, the "Arks" or "Vaults" that the player comes out of, Quest-structure, Mutant enemies, building weapons, and the stealth-based character build approach.

Honestly, I would disregard the FO comparisons if we knew more about the game but id isn't giving much more details at this time. It could be a completely different monster, however given the known information combined with the similarities with FO3 (minus the vehicles) it's hard not to compare it to last years GOTY.
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Old 07-19-2009, 04:56 PM   #592
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Re: New id Game - Rage
I reckon only the Ark/Vault thing and the Mutant enemies are fair points of criticism. Still I agree mostly.
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Old 07-19-2009, 05:50 PM   #593
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Re: New id Game - Rage
Ugh.

People complain because id does the same thing all the time, people complain when id tries something new because it's similar to something else someone has done.

Nothing is original.
No matter what someone comes up with, the idea has been done before. So what if there are similarities to Fallout, the thing is this is id Software.
A company that has done only corridor style run and gun shooters. This company is doing an open world themed shooter that does not rely on blood and gore to get interest.

Sorry, I'm tired and I've got a headache... but I'm sick of comparisons just because game A did it first.
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Old 07-19-2009, 06:12 PM   #594
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Re: New id Game - Rage
I just want to play it.

Thanks for the scans KareBear.
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Old 07-19-2009, 06:12 PM   #595
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Re: New id Game - Rage
This game seems to have enough own ideas and styles NOT to be shot down for looking too much like any other game.

It has guns, it has a story, it has combat racing, it has exploring, it has mutant bash tv, it has stealth elements, it has amazing graphics...its a first person shooter unlike many i've seen before.
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Old 07-19-2009, 07:27 PM   #596
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Re: New id Game - Rage
I'm hoping for a blu ray release on PC...
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Old 07-19-2009, 07:38 PM   #597
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Re: New id Game - Rage
How many open area sandbox games have we had? How about mutants? Only done in Fallout 3? Yeah, I don't get this comparison at all. If there is some similarities, it doesn't sound "exactly" like Fallout 3.
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Old 07-19-2009, 07:41 PM   #598
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Re: New id Game - Rage
Yes and any game with aliens rips off of Maniac Mansion.., come on.. this has blatant similarities to FO3 and you know it.
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Old 07-19-2009, 08:01 PM   #599
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Re: New id Game - Rage
Still, it doesn't sound exactly like Fallout 3. Some similarities, but these do not play alike.
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Old 07-19-2009, 10:09 PM   #600
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Re: New id Game - Rage
Weird... I keep clicking page 16 of this thread but it takes me to page 15. (Using default page numbering)
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