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Old 06-18-2009, 10:07 AM   #41
crunchy superman

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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
This whole mess has really jaded me on the entire Duke franchise. I don't really care if it ever comes out or not, regardless of who makes it.
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Old 06-18-2009, 05:16 PM   #42
Arexx

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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinX View Post
to stay on topic... only way to finish this game is to make a new and solid deal with take 2, and as gentlemen they must give them publishing rights for an console release as well...
Gentlemen? 3DRealms has spent over $20million on this game. And now Take 2 wants a huge chunk of the pie after only spending $2.5 million on it at most? (the $12m they spent for the publishing rights wasn't paid to 3DRealms)

From what I read in Take 2's complaint, I understood the original agreement was that Take 2 could work on a PORT independently. They're trying to twist it now so it looks like it was an agreement to allow them to work on a different version of the game altogether when it is obvious that this had only to do with PORTING DNF when it was complete and then selling it on consoles, the independent development having to do with the porting process only. Now Take 2 wants a bigger piece of the pie and wants to be the one finishing development on something that is 3DRealms baby.

I hope 3DRealms wins this in court and Take 2 ends up with nothing at all. If Take 2 wants a bigger piece of the pie, they should be made to pay for it. $2.5million is NOTHING compared to the total cost to 3DRealms.
Last edited by Arexx; 06-18-2009 at 05:20 PM. Reason: I really need to learn to proofread BEFORE I post ;)
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:13 PM   #43
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Electronic Arts or Activision Blizzard.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:27 PM   #44
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arexx View Post
From what I read in Take 2's complaint, I understood the original agreement was that Take 2 could work on a PORT independently. They're trying to twist it now so it looks like it was an agreement to allow them to work on a different version of the game altogether when it is obvious that this had only to do with PORTING DNF when it was complete and then selling it on consoles, the independent development having to do with the porting process only.
From what it sounds like (according to T2, which of course isn't necessarily the whole truth) you're correct, they want to exercise their right to make the port. Allegedly they offered that work to 3DR who declined, so they now want all of 3DR's material so someone else can work on the port. That's how ports work. It's not a case of requiring the game to be 100% complete before the porting process can start.
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:36 PM   #45
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosma View Post
I think it's safe to assume that Take-Two would rather not spend any more money on it. I think they're genuinely just seeking damages.
It may be reasonable to assume, but not "safe", imo. If T2 wins, gets reimbursed for their investment, and IN ADDITION gets all of the game assets, then they might have a 75% completed game with a very minimal investment. Remember, they were attempting to exercise their option for a x360 port, at their expense, when 3dr disbanded. This proves that they did have some faith in the profitability of the game.

So, with the admittedly limited amount of information we have, I would tend to agree with KaiserSoze in rooting for T2 (as long as their case had merit).
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Old 06-19-2009, 05:01 AM   #46
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arexx View Post
I hope 3DRealms wins this in court and Take 2 ends up with nothing at all.
If 3DR wins, it gains them nothing. They'll be pretty much in the same boat they are now - unfinished game, no development team, no money to pay another developer and no other publishers able to advance them anything.

The good news is that they'd be free to talk to us again and give press releases to explain . . . . . oh yeah, this is 3DRealms, I forgot.
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Old 06-19-2009, 09:51 PM   #47
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Wow, you know a lot about 3DRealms ability to generate revenue in the future. I don't care what 3DRealms does with the game to be honest. It's their game to do with what they want. I don't think it is right for Take 2 to steal 3DRealm's game and IP from them and make money of all their work after T2 paid almost nothing towards DNF or Duke Nukem in general.

It belongs to 3DRealms, no matter what you think of them and how they handled the game, it is THEIR game to handle however they please.

I want to play this as much as you do, but I won't stand by and condone bully tactics and hope someone steals a lot of hard work away from 3DRealms. I'm a programmer myself, and I wouldn't like to work years on a project only to have someone else come and take it away from me.

Shit happens, this is a small hiccup. If nothing, it's been a learning experience for 3DRealms. I wouldn't be surprised if they grew stronger as a company after all the litigation is out of the way. I have always been a fan of theirs (why would you post here otherwise?) and I'm not going to stop hoping the best for them just because of a couple mistakes. We all make mistakes... well except a few people on these forums I guess.
Last edited by Arexx; 06-19-2009 at 09:56 PM. Reason: Spelling mistake... (gotta learn to proof read!)
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Old 06-19-2009, 10:04 PM   #48
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Nobody's stealing anything.
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Old 06-19-2009, 10:35 PM   #49
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Nope, they're not. Take 2 will lose their court case and the game will stay where it belongs.
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Last edited by Arexx; 06-19-2009 at 10:36 PM. Reason: Clarification.
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Old 06-19-2009, 11:48 PM   #50
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Exclamation Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arexx View Post
Nope, they're not. Take 2 will lose their court case and the game will stay where it belongs.
The court case has nothing to do with stealing anything. Take-Two already has certain rights to Duke Nukem Forever (which they paid for) which are no longer accessible. THAT is what needs to be resolved.

You need to not misstate what the lawsuit is actually about. It's just confusing the issue.
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Old 06-20-2009, 02:01 AM   #51
Arexx

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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
They have a contract that gives them the right to PORT a FINISHED DNF to consoles. It isn't finished so... they get nothing and 3DR has until 2012 to complete it according to Take 2's own complaint. But they ARE trying to steal it. In their complaint they want the IP, they want all DNF materials etc... that is way beyond what their original contract was for.
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Last edited by Arexx; 06-20-2009 at 02:02 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 06-20-2009, 04:35 AM   #52
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Exclamation Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arexx View Post
It isn't finished so... they get nothing and 3DR has until 2012 to complete it according to Take 2's own complaint.
Look, I've explained how lawsuits work. If there is no reasonable intention of meeting the future deadline then they can be found in breach of contract now. That's why Take-Two have sued them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arexx View Post
In their complaint they want the IP, they want all DNF materials etc... that is way beyond what their original contract was for.
When people are referring to "IP grab" they're talking about Duke Nukem characters/universe and/or the Duke Nukem Forever concept. The lawsuit refers to the source code and content, not the copyrights/trademarks. You're confusing these things. By simplifying the issue, you're missing the point of the lawsuit.
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Old 06-20-2009, 05:35 AM   #53
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Arexx, you clearly have no idea what stealing is. It's taking something unlawfully; taking something that you have no rights over. Despite what you think, with no idea what the contract says and without any legal training, if the court somehow ends up awarding T2 with all the materials 3DR has so far created for DNF, that will be totally legal: the court will have determined that T2 do in fact have rights over the material.

If T2 were trying to steal the IP, 3DR would have a cause of action against them (not to mention potential criminal proceedings), not the other way around.
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Old 06-20-2009, 06:05 AM   #54
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Basically, 3DR has to provide evidence that they are going to be able to carry through their contract. If they can't provide this, they can be found in breach, as Crosma said.

I can see no reason why the judge would even have permission to assign Take Two the Duke Nukem IP, as this isn't a bankruptcy hearing or so on. To be honest, if Take Two wins, there's probably one of two possibilities. The moneys Take Two is requesting is granted, in whole or in part. They may attempt to settle out of court, or be willing to accept an alternative sentence of (or setting out of court for) the Duke Nukem Forever source, including all assets and a license to use the Duke Nukem label.

I can think of no reason why a judge even could award the Duke Nukem IP.

And unless 3D Realms can provide some good evidence suggesting that they can fulfill their end of the contract, they will be obligated to pay any and all damages and charges that are stipulated in the contract, or are awarded by the courts.

It's not looking too great for 3DR at the moment, unless they've got a pile of money under their Nuke floor-logo.
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Old 06-20-2009, 01:02 PM   #55
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Anyhow, this is getting off track... in answer to the original question, I think DNF will stay with 3DRealms, where it belongs.
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Old 06-20-2009, 10:55 PM   #56
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Hey, ask the law student about legal stuff.

Check out UCC 2-609 it will help you understand why and how Take 2 initiated this lawsuit.

You can also read AMF, Inc v. McDonald's Corp 536 f.2d 1167
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Old 06-22-2009, 06:07 PM   #57
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
The project is overdue to the extent where I wouldn't be suprised if the code is a real mess and full of bugs. Most grossly overdue software projects eventually die.They are almost impossible to hand over to another team because of poor design leading to loads of non documented adhoc fixes.You get to a point where it is cheaper and quicker to start again than to spend any more time on it trying to fix it.

The sooner it's officially dead the better but I'm sure people will still be posting twelve years form any announcement
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Old 06-23-2009, 07:35 PM   #58
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
They have (or George has) 10% to finish based on the progression stated in the files released with the media. If it’s more, seriously just can the game already, but if they really have only 10% to complete, then surely a relatively small team could familiarise themselves with what’s been done and finish the project.
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Old 06-23-2009, 07:48 PM   #59
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inanimate Carbon Rod View Post
Hey, ask the law student about legal stuff.

Check out UCC 2-609 it will help you understand why and how Take 2 initiated this lawsuit.

You can also read AMF, Inc v. McDonald's Corp 536 f.2d 1167
That's great, but it would be even better for you, as a law student, to explain it in layman's terms. Also, I doubt there is will for people to dig that latter reference up, unless they are lawyers
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:42 PM   #60
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
George B. at shacknews:

Quote:
There's no better company that could have bought id.

We're all pretty lucky, as I expect Zenimax to largely leave id alone to do what they do as they do with Bethesda. Remember that Oblivion and Fallout 3 were made under this same arrangement.

If this were another publisher it might be cause for a wake, but in this case it's nearly cause for celebration.
I bet he is a bit jealous. He wishes (and we all wish) someone like Zenimax buy 3drealms
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Old 06-25-2009, 06:44 AM   #61
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodenSword View Post
George B. at shacknews:

I bet he is a bit jealous. He wishes (and we all wish) someone like Zenimax buy 3drealms
You can't just "buy" a company, they have to be willing to sell it. Which they aren't.
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Old 06-25-2009, 08:47 AM   #62
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
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Originally Posted by lordlonelobo View Post
You can't just "buy" a company, they have to be willing to sell it. Which they aren't.
Say that to C. Montgomery Burns. Everyone and everything can be bought, you just have to have the right amount of money or whatever they want.
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Old 06-25-2009, 12:05 PM   #63
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
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Say that to C. Montgomery Burns. Everyone and everything can be bought, you just have to have the right amount of money or whatever they want.
yes, if they have good terms. Remember Scott's response at shacknews: "Hell, I would have also!" (to sell the IP for 30 million $)
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Old 06-25-2009, 01:52 PM   #64
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
He just wishes that Take 2 would just drop this and go back to normal.It is hard to keep an unbiased viewpoint of George Broussard when he keeps talking and saying dumb things. I think Zenimax would be smart enough to realise that there are some companies like id who can be trusted to be left alone by themselves and some who need to be constantly watched, like 3DR.

tl;dr: Game developers are children.
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Old 06-25-2009, 04:06 PM   #65
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Since reading both Take2s version and 3DRs counter, along with the little pressrelease we have, I still have seen 0 people coming up with a real reason Take2 is going to win this one. Keep seeing people posting about it, but im far, far from convinced.

Seriously, in my eyes, Take2s chanses are extremely slim here.

So, anyone that truly believes they are going to win it, could you please sum up your arguments as for why?
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Old 06-25-2009, 07:09 PM   #66
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arexx View Post
It belongs to 3DRealms, no matter what you think of them and how they handled the game, it is THEIR game to handle however they please.
Why is it that people keep forgetting the LAW?!?

When was the last time you screwed a contract over and got away scott free?

WHEN?!?

SM and GB won't even tell us what's going on, sitting on their high horses saying "oh, you will see one day, we will be vindicated, blah blah blah..."

As the ultimate supporter of 3DR, I would like to know your stance on the big "if" of them winning. Which still leaves us with:

Quote:
If 3DR wins, it gains them nothing. They'll be pretty much in the same boat they are now - unfinished game, no development team, no money to pay another developer and no other publishers able to advance them anything.
Retort?

---------- Post added at 07:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:52 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arexx View Post
Nope, they're not. Take 2 will lose their court case and the game will stay where it belongs.
It will stay where it belongs, yes - Unfinished and unreleased, forever standing as the memorial to poor management.
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Old 06-25-2009, 07:49 PM   #67
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
I don't want Take Two making DNF. Yeah, you'll get a game with the name Duke Nukem Forever on it but it'll suck. It's not like it'll be everything it was supposed to be without 3DR running the show. And the whole DNF team is gone now. So it'd either be a huge clash to what the DNF team did and be far too jarring or it'll start over from scratch and churn out something mediocre that everyone will buy just because it has the name Duke Nukem Forever on it. Either way it'd suck.
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Old 06-25-2009, 09:23 PM   #68
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
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Originally Posted by Tualmasok View Post
It will stay where it belongs, yes - Unfinished and unreleased, forever standing as the memorial to poor management.
Why? The build was obviously on track. If it was a mess Take2 woudnt even fight for the source code.
Pretty sure something will happen the coming months. Dont know what. Heres hoping its anything that gets this build going. A year? Then its probably scratched again, no mather who owns the rights by that time.
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Old 06-25-2009, 10:20 PM   #69
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Quote:
SM and GB won't even tell us what's going on
*face palm*

They're in a lawsuit, dude.
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Old 06-26-2009, 01:26 AM   #70
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Exclamation Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
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Originally Posted by LeonZyCoene View Post
They're in a lawsuit, dude.
What's that got to do with anything? It's not a criminal case.

3D Realms rarely ever talked to their fans. The website updates slowed down to crawl, and they got rid of the .plan years ago. Things haven't really changed. Whenever there was any news, it usually just got posted on Shacknews.
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Old 06-26-2009, 05:47 AM   #71
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosma View Post
What's that got to do with anything? It's not a criminal case.

3D Realms rarely ever talked to their fans. The website updates slowed down to crawl, and they got rid of the .plan years ago. Things haven't really changed. Whenever there was any news, it usually just got posted on Shacknews.
Now they can't say that DNF is frozen. Its not that they are not allowed by the law but it is 1) They will lose the case if they do, 2) Maybe (maaaaaaybe) they hope to find an investor/company "x" in the following 9 months. So in the court they could say: "hey, we have given DNF to company "x". We are continuing the development"

In a few words, it's not in their benefit (for both court and the game) to say the true status of DNF now, hoping also that maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe meanwhile in the future something good happens.
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Old 06-26-2009, 06:39 AM   #72
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
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Originally Posted by KaiserSoze View Post
I originally posted this on Duke4.net:
I agree all and i would add that for me George and Scott were very badly behaved with their fans, with all their secrets and for having made this DNF.
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Old 06-27-2009, 09:12 AM   #73
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
I don't see why 3D Realms doesn't just borrow the few million they need to finish the game from a bank, and then repay them after the game goes on sale? Problem solved and Duke Nukem Forever can be finished without delay.
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Old 06-27-2009, 10:40 AM   #74
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
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Originally Posted by Dunedain View Post
I don't see why 3D Realms doesn't just borrow the few million they need to finish the game from a bank, and then repay them after the game goes on sale? Problem solved and Duke Nukem Forever can be finished without delay.
Well, it'd break their whole "we've never had a loan" thing, but more importantly, a bank would probably take a look, see the fact the company hasn't produced anything substantial in 12 years and tell them to GTFO.
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Old 06-27-2009, 05:16 PM   #75
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
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Originally Posted by lordlonelobo View Post
Well, it'd break their whole "we've never had a loan" thing, but more importantly, a bank would probably take a look, see the fact the company hasn't produced anything substantial in 12 years and tell them to GTFO.
Depends on the bank really, some are lenient (to a point) while others are the one you said above.
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Old 06-27-2009, 07:18 PM   #76
Monkey Butler
Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
I seriously doubt any bank in the current climate is going to look at 3DR's financial situation and agree to hand over $5,000,000. If it was at all possible, I'm sure 3DR would have done that by now.
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Old 06-27-2009, 11:43 PM   #77
Mr. PHP
Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Butler View Post
I seriously doubt any bank in the current climate is going to look at 3DR's financial situation and agree to hand over $5,000,000. If it was at all possible, I'm sure 3DR would have done that by now.
According to Take 2's lawyers, 3DR has enough in offshore-bank accounts to finish DNF. If this turns out to be true...
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Old 06-28-2009, 12:59 AM   #78
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. PHP View Post
According to Take 2's lawyers, 3DR has enough in offshore-bank accounts to finish DNF. If this turns out to be true...
No, Take 2 said they had enough in offshore bank accounts to pay their debts, not to finish the game.

Apogee denied the claim.
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Old 06-28-2009, 01:30 AM   #79
Mr. PHP
Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
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Originally Posted by lordlonelobo View Post
No, Take 2 said they had enough in offshore bank accounts to pay their debts, not to finish the game.

Apogee denied the claim.
LOL "Fund their obligations"
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Old 06-28-2009, 01:53 AM   #80
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Re: Who do you think DNF will go to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arexx View Post
Anyhow, this is getting off track... in answer to the original question, I think DNF will stay with 3DRealms, where it belongs.
You mean back into obscurity where it will never be finished and still remain the biggest joke of the gaming industry?
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