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Old 04-03-2013, 12:59 PM   #1001
Kit

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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Nihilanth knows the ins-and-outs of the story better, but from what I recall a programmer from NASA wanted in on the project as he was a massive Doom fan. He left after a year or so - I think he was working on the AI?

Anyway, it's that sort of behaviour that I reckon drove the development into 'CoD' mode. People who liked the glamour of working on such a cool project but were never going to see it through, or try to do the series justice.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:45 PM   #1003
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Good pull, Kristian. That is most likely him but I don't recall him having that many games under his belt? The NASA reference was the one that stuck with me.

Nihilanth posted him a few pages back. I will have a look if it's the same person.
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:30 PM   #1004
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Does anybody know how a next doom game should feel/play?
I sure don't know... I liked the old skool feel of doom3, but I don't think I would do so again...

Quake was IDs action oriented space shooter, strange for them to take doom the same way...
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:31 PM   #1005
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Are you ready to see me get shot down, Spinx? because my spidey sense is telling me that's whats going to happen after I post this.

Gameplay:

- Killing Floor weapon feedback - it's the best and that's the end of it!
- Left 4 dead style open environments
- Co-op leading a squad of marines - not all game but for a part of it
- Speed.

"We need speed, greasy, fast speed."

Quick run speed. Quick Weapon change. Quick reload. None of this realistic crap.

Visual theme:

- Same vein as Doom 3. I freakin loved the look, sound, and general atmosphere of that game.
- decades worth of effort going into the gib effects - gross me out, id!

Story:

Environmental story telling like Left 4 Dead.

Actually, sod it. No story would be fine.

That's all I've got.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kit View Post
Good pull, Kristian.

I will have a look if it's the same person.
Same person. God this game has been in development forever.
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:35 PM   #1006
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien_Azreal View Post
Yes, because if Kotaku posts it... it must be one hundred percent true.
You should know about Kotaku by now... of all the outlets with "insider" scoops, they really do have them... nearly 100% of the time.

There is a reason I have a lot of respect for Kotaku - and if you read their work carefully, it eludes to the level of reliability of their sources. When they are certain, they let you know - and they always hit those spot-on.

I won't go digging up that banter we had going on about Kotaku and Gearbox ... I got a temp ban for mocking the denial that was going on here.

I'm sure they get their share of disgruntled insiders who have their own B.S. info - the difference with Kotaku is they do a helluva job filtering out most of the riff-raff. It's not east getting the dirt on these companies when even the official statements are full of crap.
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:37 PM   #1007
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Hmm, this time last year didn't we hear a similar statement?

“An earlier version of Doom 4 did not exhibit the quality and excitement that Id and Bethesda intend to deliver and that Doom fans worldwide expect,” Bethesda's vice president of marketing and public relations Pete Hines said in a statement to Kotaku. “As a result, Id refocused its efforts on a new version of Doom 4 that promises to meet the very high expectations everyone has for this game and this franchise. When we’re ready to talk about the Doom 4 Id is making, we will let folks know.”
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:40 PM   #1008
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
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Originally Posted by KO Gilligan View Post
You should know about Kotaku by now... of all the outlets with "insider" scoops, they really do have them... nearly 100% of the time.
Kotaku is one of the many sites out there I hate. From the design of the site itself, to how articles are written... and about everything else about them.

I've know about Kotaku for years, and hated them for a long time.
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:47 PM   #1009
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
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Originally Posted by Kit View Post
Nihilanth knows the ins-and-outs of the story better, but from what I recall a programmer from NASA wanted in on the project as he was a massive Doom fan. He left after a year or so - I think he was working on the AI?

Anyway, it's that sort of behaviour that I reckon drove the development into 'CoD' mode. People who liked the glamour of working on such a cool project but were never going to see it through, or try to do the series justice.
Well, after looking at his Linkedin page, I would say that he was hardly affiliated with NASA, if at all.

"NASA-sponsored Mars exploration virtual learning game"

Meh.
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:53 PM   #1010
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Rofl!

Well he sells it hard at the start and that's what I remembered.

"* Experience as lead technologist working directly with liaisons at: FBI, CIA, DARPA, Army, Marines, and NASA"

Guy can certainly write a good CV.

Edit:

I am still chuckling away at this. xD
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Old 04-03-2013, 04:18 PM   #1011
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Yeah. The list could continue like this

FBI, CIA, DARPA, Army, Marines, NASA, NSA, CSI Miami, SOCOM, Navy SEALs, Delta Force, KGB and MI6

and still wouldn't satisfy this guy's ego.
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Old 04-03-2013, 04:46 PM   #1012
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
There is a lot of blame going straight at Rage for under-achievement, but when I think of Bethesda, I remember how they published Brink - I thought it was going to be good with all they said about it

- what a wonderous piece of stinky garbage that was.
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Old 04-03-2013, 04:51 PM   #1013
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Originally Posted by MAT View Post
Yeah. The list could continue like this

FBI, CIA, DARPA, Army, Marines, NASA, NSA, CSI Miami, SOCOM, Navy SEALs, Delta Force, KGB and MI6

and still wouldn't satisfy this guy's ego.
ha ha xD

Well, that's made my day. I am all smiles now.
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:35 PM   #1014
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by KO Gilligan View Post
There is a lot of blame going straight at Rage for under-achievement, but when I think of Bethesda, I remember how they published Brink - I thought it was going to be good with all they said about it

- what a wonderous piece of stinky garbage that was.
The big thing was ZeniMax were very quick to say that RAGE didn't meet sales expectations.
Yet, for a new IP the game sold extremely well. And reviewed very well. Despite some thinking the game was an open world FPS/RPG hybird... when id never meant for people to take it that way... a lot enjoyed it.


But, you have to wonder about ZeniMax's internal expectations for the game itself. This was after they had bought id Software.
So, they couldn't have been dense enough to expect RAGE to make up the money from buying id and finishing development of the game, could they?

And, in all honesty the majority of the "issues" with RAGE at launch were due to technical issues and driver incompatibilities.
But, given Bethesda/ZeniMax's "Quality Assurance" department, and the condition other titles they've released have come out...


I loved RAGE. It's a great shooter... nobody makes a shooter that feels or moves like an id Software title.
It may have "underperformed" in ZeniMax's eyes, but all I can say... is how high did they set their expectations? And why?
I know Rockstar threw a little bitch fit when LA Noire and Max Payne 3 didn't get millions of copies sold in their first months. Calling each title a "bomb".

This idea that a game is only good if it meets a certain sales number is crap.
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Old 04-04-2013, 12:22 AM   #1015
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
I've always known that 4+ years for a run&gun shooter means something is not going well. I kind of knew this was coming even though I've been silently hoping the next time we hear about DOOM 4 it'd be the best news.

It's unknown how much of the source info is correct (except for the confirmed restart). But funny, if it's true, then it turns out everything id has said about DOOM in a past was a complete bullshit. All those comments about how two teams benefit from each other, how the DOOM team learns from the RAGE team, how they feel good about it, how everything in DOOM 4 is like classic DOOM, how it was not supposed to be a DOOM 3 -like restart... If the info is true then it was all bullshit.

The lack of internal focus is also stunning considering id didn't notice the disaster that's been happening at the DOOM team for three years. Even if they were primarily focused on finishing RAGE, it's still weird.

I would like to think that the restart and the Zenimax intervention served as a much needed wake up call for id. They are now 100% focused on DOOM 4 so it's theirs "to be or not to be". But I have my doubts about this whole situation.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:12 AM   #1016
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien_Azreal View Post
I loved RAGE. It's a great shooter... nobody makes a shooter that feels or moves like an id Software title.
RAGE was also great looking game. Just the right amount of dark and gritty.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:21 AM   #1017
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
What a lack of management can undo!

Seeing how Doom 3 and RAGE had similarities in good ways, and how good both games feel IMO, I though they couldn't go wrong... missteps are round our way.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:02 PM   #1018
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Well, if Doom 4 never comes out, I still have Brutal Doom. Id should just look at Brutal Doom and emulate it in Doom 4. I believe if they make the action in Doom 4 as hard, satisfying, and intense as it is in Brutal Doom, then it should sell well.
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:57 PM   #1019
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Yes, because what the world needs is another generic shooter that has already been done thousands of times.

New and creative is not good. It's not gooood, damn it.
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:44 AM   #1020
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Honestly, the safest bet would be to make it like Brutal Doom, as John Doe suggested, mixed with elements of other recent hectic shooters. No need at all to go the CoD route.

The only drawback I see is technical. Could all the insane Brutal Doom gore be done in 3D, with all the next gen bells and whistles, without destroying performance?

They'd have to pull back on the graphics a fair bit I imagine.
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:11 AM   #1021
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Except Brutal DOOM sucks. But it seems to most people DOOM means ridiculous, sophomoric gore and chaos.
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:27 AM   #1022
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
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Originally Posted by Nihilanth View Post
Except Brutal DOOM sucks. But it seems to most people DOOM means ridiculous, sophomoric gore and chaos.
Satanic, sophomoric gore and chaos.

What is it supposed to be if not that?
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:10 AM   #1023
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
DOOM is not a Troma movie.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:07 AM   #1024
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Still not said what it's supposed to be like.
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Old 04-06-2013, 12:00 AM   #1025
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
To me DOOM is this visceral shooter experience in a sci-fi horror theme. Demons and technology. Action and exploration. Blood and gore. But even though it has some B-movie elements in it, it's still dark, hellish and serious. It's a sci-fi battle against forces of Hell, not a gore movie with extremely exaggerated violence and retarded fatalities. Gore reinforces the brutality of Hell, it's not a central point around which everything happens.
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Old 04-06-2013, 04:38 AM   #1026
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
I don't like Brutal Doom just because it gets boring with its exaggerated... everything very quickly.
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Old 04-06-2013, 04:44 PM   #1027
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
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Yes, because what the world needs is another generic shooter that has already been done thousands of times.

New and creative is not good. It's not gooood, damn it.
Yeah, making the combat of Doom 4 like the combat of Brutal Doom would simply make it another generic shooter. Please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilanth View Post
To me DOOM is this visceral shooter experience in a sci-fi horror theme. Demons and technology. Action and exploration. Blood and gore. But even though it has some B-movie elements in it, it's still dark, hellish and serious. It's a sci-fi battle against forces of Hell, not a gore movie with extremely exaggerated violence and retarded fatalities. Gore reinforces the brutality of Hell, it's not a central point around which everything happens.
And how does Brutal Doom ruin that? Because it makes it TOO visceral? Is the action TOO intense? To me, only Doom 3 was serious. The classic Doom's were less serious and more about action and violence. The story was only there so that there would be a reason to all the violence.

I will never understand why there are doom fans that don't like Brutal Doom. Oh, because it's exaggerated. You mean Doom wasn't exaggerated to begin with? Oh, because it's simply gore porn. Anyone who says such idiocy is missing the other very important aspects of Brutal Doom. Brutal Doom doesn't just make Doom more violent. It makes the combat faster, harder, and more intense. The weapons are loud and destructive and do massive damage to the demons. The monsters are faster, smarter, more aggressive, and have more attacks and abilities. I mean, I was surprised just by how slow the monsters in vanilla Doom actually moved compared to the monsters in Brutal Doom. The monsters are now a lot more interesting when they infight each other because now they can perform fatalities on one another. For example, the pinkies can chomp down smaller monsters like imps and zombies. The barons can rip zombies in half and throw their torsos at you. The cyberdemon can stomp monsters with his hoof and make them explode. Such little aspects of the monsters makes them a lot more interesting to fight and watch. Not only do the monsters have more abilities, the player has more abilities as well. Doomguy can now jump kick, use enemies as meat shields, pick up barrels and throw them at his enemies, and of course, he can perform the infamous fatalities. Yeah, the gore is a very obvious part of Brutal Doom, but if Brutal Doom only modified the gore of Doom and made no other changes, it would not be nearly as awesome as it is.
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:16 PM   #1028
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Brutal Doom is fun, but it makes Doom almost comical. The violence is entertaining, but because it's so over the top it's laughable.

Doom 4 should be violent, bloody and intense. But not to the extent that it's comical.
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Old 04-07-2013, 01:52 AM   #1029
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Exactly. Like I said, it's like a Troma movie where everything is so exaggerated it's almost funny, ridiculous. Violence in DOOM is and should be more along the lines of dark and disturbing. Brutal DOOM is more violent but to the point of being funny.

As for the gameplay, it's also past a certain point for me. Generally I never like mods that make everything louder and overpowered. Even in chaos there's got to be a bit of subtlety. It might be fun to a degree. Then it becomes too much.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:29 AM   #1030
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Just read some quite disturbing stuff about the creator of the Brutal Doom mod.

Still think it keeps in theme with the Doom series (it's crazy to say that isn't one of the key elements of the originals success) but I do agree regarding the 'fatalities' - it adds a comical side to Doom which shouldn't be there.

I think if you look at this trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTWP3wvAUuQ

The parts that would make Doom cooler for me is the section where he uses the BFG to turn that room full of imps into a bloodbath - that's the sort of epic destruction I thought the gun was capable of.
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:24 AM   #1031
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
After watching that video, i hope doom 4 will nothing be like that.
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:39 AM   #1032
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Agreed.

Like I said, I like Brutal Doom. But, because it's so over the top... makes me feel like I'm playing a Grindhouse version of Doom. It's not Doom. It's not what id intended Doom to be.

But it's fun because of how absurd it is.
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:01 PM   #1033
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Quote:
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After watching that video, i hope doom 4 will nothing be like that.
Oh yes. I am sure Doom 4 would be much better if it were like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4yIxUOWrtw

and this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NURfvG0lfpA

I mean just look at how serious and EPIC it is! Every retard in the world would be like "O MY GOSTCH! ITSTH LIKE A MICHAEL BAY FILM! ITSTH SO COOL N' EPIC!"

Anyway, it looks like we're not going to agree on this. However, I honestly believe that if id went back to its roots, made Doom 4 more of a classic shooter with really intense action and combat like Brutal Doom, it would stand out from the huge crowd of "serious" and "epic" shooters like COD and BF4 which try to be all "serious" and "cinematic" so that the little retards can feel like they're in a movie, but in reality those games are simply linear, on the rails, run through once and you're done type of shooters which have no lasting value and totally insult the intelligence of the gamer.

Plus, Brutal Doom has id's seal of approval. The trailer that Kit posted has a quote from Matt Hooper where he said "For those who haven't checked out Brutal Doom...you should, it's extremely cool and extremely brutal!" Due to that quote, I don't know where Damien_Azreal gets off saying that Brutal Doom is not what id intended Doom to be. If they had the tech back then to make Doom like that with more gore, death animations, etc. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't have made it that way.

And yeah, the creator of the mod has done some stupid things like put racist jokes into the code for which he was publicly reprimanded, but he since then apologized and removed the racist jokes from the code. And people have also ranted on him about the "real gore" mutator that he once made for Brutal Doom where the gore was made from pictures of real life gore from actual dead people, which is stupid since game devs have used real life gore as a reference to model gore in their games for years. I've heard other ridiculous things about him which I am skeptical of due to the fact that it's very easy to start false rumors on the internet.
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:14 PM   #1034
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
I don't "get off" by saying anything.
And, I say id didn't intend that to be Doom because they weren't making a parody of action games. That's what Brutal Doom is. It's an over exaggeration of action and horror.
Amplified to comical proportions because it looks cool.

It's a Grindhouse parody of Doom. It's fun, I love brutal Doom... but it's not "Doom". It's not what made/makes Doom great.
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:50 PM   #1035
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Hey guys, remember when in Aliens, Hicks ripped that xenomorph in half and told the alien queen to go **** herself?

And who is Matt Hooper? He didn't work on Doom 1 or 2 as far as I can tell because his name isn't in the credits. Is this some guy working on Doom 4? He sure knows what id intended back in 1993. Seems like he worked on Doom 3 though. Sure made it brutal.
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:58 PM   #1036
MAT

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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by john_doe2 View Post
Oh yes. I am sure Doom 4 would be much better if it were like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4yIxUOWrtw

and this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NURfvG0lfpA

I mean just look at how serious and EPIC it is! Every retard in the world would be like "O MY GOSTCH! ITSTH LIKE A MICHAEL BAY FILM! ITSTH SO COOL N' EPIC!"
Good one, but this is another extremity. Of course I don't want a COD-like Doom 4 where you are not even allowed basic freedoms. But I surely don't want to kill hordes of generic, mediocre, brainless enemies attacking me from all directions. That's Serious Sam. It's a parody and it's fun.

But Doom 3 set the right feeling for how a Doom game should be. Horror elements, dark, mature, backed up with a cool Sci-Fi story. Apart from some bad design here and there, it was a fantastic game. I think Doom 4 should improve upon that.
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Old 04-07-2013, 03:00 PM   #1037
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
We can debate the merits of ultra-carnage Doom all we want, but the masses would hate it. It would probably do good as a DLC pack.

But I first thought the original mention of making Doom 4 like Brutal Doom was trolling. It'll never happen, so I never thought this would keep going.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:04 PM   #1038
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
I don't see it as trolling. Doom 2 had walls with limbless, bloody, corpses splatter on them with chains hanging off. It's a pretty damn gory game so kicking it up a notch doesn't seem all that mad to me.

Regardless, it's such a tough one for id. Go in a completely new direction and face a backlash from the original fans for not sticking to the routes of the series. Keep too inline with previous games and it might do poorly like Rage. Certainly a tough situation for them.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:38 AM   #1039
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
In hindsight it apparently is not trolling.

They'll obviously put out a good game, and I would like a bunch of cringe inducing body damage modeling

- the problem is the non-gaming public will throw up screenshots on network news for parents at dinner time, and the game critics will call the efforts a "gimmick" which will overshadow the true qualities of the game.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:28 AM   #1040
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Re: Doom 4 Thread Part 2
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- the problem is the non-gaming public will throw up screenshots on network news for parents at dinner time, and the game critics will call the efforts a "gimmick" which will overshadow the true qualities of the game.
True. I definitely do not want a Doom game where extreme violence is the only selling point like Manhunt or Carmageddon. Hope that didn't come across in my posts!

Going to be so interesting to see how id respond. Do they do a Resi 4 and go in a completely different direction with the combat? do they go with a Serious Sam/ L4D style model of play? maybe continue with the atmospheric tension of Doom 3?

If recent games have taught me anything though, it's that they need to go down one path and not get too caught up with pleasing everyone - or we could end up with an abomination like Resi 6.
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