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Old 02-20-2005, 02:26 PM   #201
CorpusC
Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
I have a 1.4 athlon....thats ACTUAL gigaherts.
it came out before the days of the XP naming system, so it is equivalent to approximately a xp 1800 (or so i have been told). my videocard is irrelevent (just so Iggy knows).

while my computer is considered low end these days, it is not ancient/disabled.
this should be plenty to run a modernized version of duke 3d.

a 900k .bmp file loads NOTICEABLY faster than an 80k .jpg in my Direct3D engine.
yeah its not duke, and yeah its not .png.

just giving you some facts that might go against some peoples ideas on filesize relating to loading speed.
misinterpret and poopoo this fact as you wish.
that is a HUGE hit in speed. and JFDuke does seem to load additional textures during gameplay.
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Old 02-20-2005, 04:48 PM   #202
Night Hacker

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Of course a BMP loads noticably faster, it should be noticably faster than a PNG as well as a BMP has ZERO compression. PNGs and JPGs have compression. Feel free to convert all the textures to BMPs, if you have the space to spare. The texture folder converted to all BMPs (yes, I checked) takes up 111Megs.

What does BMPs have to do with anything anyhow? Nobody is using BMPs for their textures that I know of, but hey, knock yourself out.
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Old 02-20-2005, 05:04 PM   #203
Parkar

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Now I am confused, a bmp with no compression is quicker to load then a jpg since it has no compression but a png is slower since it has less compression. Is this what you are saying.

If it realy is qucker to use bmp files then a 8-bit uncompressed file would be the best solution if you ask me.I dont realy belive the bmp's to be quickest since the slowest part of loading a file is the disk access, please correct me if I am missing something here.
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Old 02-20-2005, 09:59 PM   #204
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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Let's make things less confusing. You are talking about the speed of my picture library (KPLIB.C), and there's only 1 way to know for sure how fast it is. I hacked up a little program that tests loading & decoding speed of each format. For my test image, I used the full quality 1024x1024 image from Parkar's "babe" SDK. Here are my results:

Code:
stripper1_hr.bmp: Load time: 0.005117, Min decode time (16 trials): 0.003013 <-  8ms total, 3145782 bytes
stripper1_hr.tga: Load time: 0.004885, Min decode time (16 trials): 0.006867 <- 12ms total, 2726004 bytes
stripper1_hr.pcx: Load time: 0.004509, Min decode time (16 trials): 0.027879 <- 32ms total, 2679581 bytes
stripper1_hr.png: Load time: 0.003300, Min decode time (16 trials): 0.043842 <- 47ms total, 1547397 bytes
stripper1_hr.gif: Load time: 0.001963, Min decode time (16 trials): 0.011152 <- 13ms total,  639447 bytes
stripper1_hr.pn8: Load time: 0.001607, Min decode time (16 trials): 0.017412 <- 19ms total,  528791 bytes
stripper1_hr.jpg: Load time: 0.000868, Min decode time (16 trials): 0.033121 <- 34ms total,  358182 bytes
Notes:
* Test machine: P4-3.6Ghz, 1GB RAM
* KZTEST.EXE compiled with MSVC 6.0 with full optimizations enabled
* All files were already in the disk cache before running (can affect load time significantly).
* My PNG and JPG decoder is somewhat optimized. I have not put as much effort in the other formats.
* The TGA uses RLE, the PCX is 24-bit (lossless), the GIF is 8-bit (lossy), the PN8 is 8-bit PNG (lossy), the JPG quality is "95" (lossy)
* I consider differences of less than 10% insignificant

Here are my conclusions from this test:
* My JPG decoder is faster than my PNG decoder.
* It appears that GIF provides the fastest loading speed with reasonable file size. Don't use GIF though - it's uncool!

Another big factor in loading time is the speed of copying a system buffer to video memory. I did not address this in my test. There are 2 ways to deal with this: use lower resolution, or load images with DXT compression (.DDS files). JFDuke3D doesn't yet support this.

I attached my test program (KZTEST.EXE). Feel free to run it on other machines and test images. I'd be curious to know of any other conclusions that you may draw from it.
Attached Files
File Type: zip 788413-kztest.zip (40.1 KB, 43 views)
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Old 02-21-2005, 01:21 AM   #205
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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Great, Awesoken!
Thanks for clarifying the subject .
Now I may only add , that most of games based on Q3 engine (and Q3 itself) used jpg.
Somebody may deny overal interst value of ID games, but nobody can deny that John Carmack can make engines with balanced resourses - that is well known fact...
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Old 02-21-2005, 02:04 AM   #206
CorpusC
Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Quote:
Night Hacker said:
Of course a BMP loads noticably faster, it should be noticably faster than a PNG as well as a BMP has ZERO compression. PNGs and JPGs have compression. Feel free to convert all the textures to BMPs, if you have the space to spare. The texture folder converted to all BMPs (yes, I checked) takes up 111Megs.

What does BMPs have to do with anything anyhow? Nobody is using BMPs for their textures that I know of, but hey, knock yourself out.
maaaan, you were just saying that small file sizes were quicker to load. there is more to TEXTURE "loading" than simply reading the file data.
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Old 02-21-2005, 03:39 AM   #207
Night Hacker

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Again I ask, what in hell do BMPs have to do with JPGs or PNGs? They're not used as textures, sheesh.

From the look of Ken's tests JPGs are quicker than 24bit PNGs as I suspected. 8bit PNGs are faster than JPGs, but 8bit PNGs look alot worse than JPGs do and are still larger in size as well.

I guess it's a matter of taste. If you don't like JPGs, DON'T USE 'EM! Sheesh, don't get all over me because I am offering them to those that DO prefer them though.



Ken: Thanks alot for that program, I'll definately be running it on my system.


Edit: Here are my times using differing compression levels...

All these were Parker's stripper texture from his babe SDK, I shortened the file names for easier typing at the command prompt

Code:
PNG with NO compression
s0.png (3M):  Load time:  0.007591, Min decode time (16 trials):  0.074388

PNG with level 6 compression
s6.png (1.48M):  Load time:  0.003507, Min decode time (16 trials):  0.088910

PNG with level 9 compression
s9.png (1.47M):  Load time:  0.003574, Min decode time (16 trials):  0.088530

8bit PNG with level 9 compression
s9_8bit.png (439K): Load time:  0.001129, Min decode time (16 trials):  0.026961

Various levels of JPG compression, sizes and times...
s75.jpg (117K): Load time:  0.000360, Min decode time (16 trials):  0.028918
s90.jpg (228K): Load time:  0.000609, Min decode time (16 trials):  0.034316
s95.jpg (349K): Load time:  0.000936, Min decode time (16 trials):  0.039547
The 24bit PNG is way slower, almost 3 times slower where an 8bit PNG is only marginally faster while being alot larger with more noticable lossyness (banding and dithering).

I think these tests have definately ruled out 24bit PNGs as being a viable texture format.
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Old 02-21-2005, 04:38 AM   #208
Parkar

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Nice to get it all cleared out ken, seams like there is little diffrence between png and jpg as suspected. I would say its just a matter of taste then wich format to use.

Only reason for argueing if you ask me is wich version the texture artist will use and the best option would be if the original artist would use lossless formats and then us making packs can compress the files to the versions we want to use. This will also be a good thing if we in the future get get another better option like dxt format since we then have the lossless files to make dxt files of instead of he lossy 8-bit and jpg files.

So 24bit png as a matter of releaseing individual textures(having a lossy format going with it would ofcourse be good for users that dont feel like having to compress all there textures) and jpg or png-8 for textures ingame. This is the way I'll be doing it from now on 24-bit png for individual textures and 8-bit png in my hrp pack.
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Old 02-21-2005, 04:52 AM   #209
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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Quote:
Parkar said:
Nice to get it all cleared out ken, seams like there is little diffrence between png and jpg as suspected. I would say its just a matter of taste then wich format to use.

Only reason for argueing if you ask me is wich version the texture artist will use and the best option would be if the original artist would use lossless formats and then us making packs can compress the files to the versions we want to use. This will also be a good thing if we in the future get get another better option like dxt format since we then have the lossless files to make dxt files of instead of he lossy 8-bit and jpg files.

So 24bit png as a matter of releaseing individual textures(having a lossy format going with it would ofcourse be good for users that dont feel like having to compress all there textures) and jpg or png-8 for textures ingame. This is the way I'll be doing it from now on 24-bit png for individual textures and 8-bit png in my hrp pack.
I do hope somebody will make a 24-bit jpg version of the hrp pack, my computer can handle, however I don't have the time to download all the 24-bit pngs, turn them into jpgs, and manually write all the definetexture things. I just don't, couple it with a little laziness, and I'd like to see a 24bit version I can just install with click of a mouse.
 
Old 02-21-2005, 04:54 AM   #210
Parkar

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
there is one already mad eby night hacker containing the textures for hrp look in the enhancing thread.
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Old 02-21-2005, 05:26 AM   #211
Night Hacker

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
I have to agree with you Parker. I was thinking about this earlier and came to the same conclusion as you did. The only problem with this is 24bit PNGs make for large textures and difficult to attach to a message on these forums.
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Old 02-21-2005, 05:30 AM   #212
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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Quote:
Night Hacker said:
I have to agree with you Parker. I was thinking about this earlier and came to the same conclusion as you did. The only problem with this is 24bit PNGs make for large textures and difficult to attach to a message on these forums.
I have yet to learn a lot about these kinda businesses, but could an imagehost like ImageShack.us or PhotoBucket.com be a solution?
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Old 02-21-2005, 05:31 AM   #213
Night Hacker

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Someone was kind enough to mirror the JPG textures.

Remember, this isn't the entire HRP, it is just the textures +definition.

http://download.dukemaps.net/hrp/highres.zip
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Old 02-21-2005, 05:49 AM   #214
Parkar

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Yes thats the problem. There was a host we could use posted here somewere with ftp login and password. Dont have time to find it right now but if its still around using it would solve the problem even though it might not be to fast.
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Old 02-21-2005, 06:39 AM   #215
Iggy

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Quote:
Night Hacker said:
Someone was kind enough to mirror the JPG textures.

Remember, this isn't the entire HRP, it is just the textures +definition.

http://download.dukemaps.net/hrp/highres.zip
Whenever it gets updated, please notify me so I can update it. (Send an e-mail to webmaster [at] dukemaps.net please)
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Old 02-21-2005, 06:44 AM   #216
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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Quote:
Night Hacker said:
Someone was kind enough to mirror the JPG textures.

Remember, this isn't the entire HRP, it is just the textures +definition.

http://download.dukemaps.net/hrp/highres.zip
So, uh, how do I best load these textures and the models from the Duke one without rewriting the zip files? Just had /ghighres.zip behind it? Or does that double load everything, or cause things to go bad?
 
Old 02-21-2005, 09:40 AM   #217
Parkar

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Going through the pack improving texture quality on my textures. If you feel like helping out look through the pack and see if you find textures with artifacts, then find them on these boards and make a post here with the originaly released texture. You can ofcourse skip all textures made by me since I am redoing them from my source files already.

Here is a list of the ones Myron has already found for me.

0170
0171
0476
0481
0482
0483
0484
0485
0486
0488
0843
0963
1074
1076
1075
3672
3673
3674
3675

If you have made textures in the pack and have textures in original 24bit versions and want me to redo all of them a link to a zip file with all in one would make things alot easier.

Also jpg textures are not included in this rehaul unless you want me to make them 8bit-png instead(I ofcorse need the file in its pree jpg compressed form to do this).

The reson I am doing this is to repair any damage I have done to textures by using photoshops 8-bit palletteizer wich is realy bad as soon as you have more then 1 color on the texture.
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Old 02-21-2005, 02:58 PM   #218
Balgias

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Is there any new models\textures that have been released on these forums that wasn't in the high-res pack ?

Please post links if there are any!

Btw, There's some nice new welcome additions in the high-res pack.. the 3d pig cop and reptoid troopers.. But i have only 1 question..

Why hasn't the strippers and duke nukem been converted to 3d yet ?!?
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Old 02-21-2005, 02:59 PM   #219
ProAsm

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Parkar if you like you can have a look at these I modified myself for my own use and maybe others might like em

http://www.unreal.co.za/files/other/3pics.zip
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Old 02-21-2005, 03:20 PM   #220
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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Quote:
Balgias said:
Is there any new models\textures that have been released on these forums that wasn't in the high-res pack ?

Please post links if there are any!

Btw, There's some nice new welcome additions in the high-res pack.. the 3d pig cop and reptoid troopers.. But i have only 1 question..

Why hasn't the strippers and duke nukem been converted to 3d yet ?!?
Welcome to a month ago.
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Old 02-21-2005, 03:28 PM   #221
Parkar

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Got a new hud in hrp now, thanks.

The other 2 are a diffrent matter.

the one with the nuke symbol cant be used since its made using the original (correct me if I am wrong).

The 3dr logo is cool but to low res.

Thinking of making a hrp screen instead of the 3dr logo but not sure if I realy want to remove it since they made the game and I kind of like having it there. Not sure what to do, suggestions are welcome.
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Old 02-21-2005, 03:34 PM   #222
Iggy

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Quote:
Parkar said:Thinking of making a hrp screen instead of the 3dr logo but not sure if I realy want to remove it since they made the game and I kind of like having it there. Not sure what to do, suggestions are welcome.
Then just leave the logo right there. =P

Got me a question, how long will it take before the next hrp-pack will be released (containing all of the new updates ofcourse)?
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Old 02-21-2005, 03:39 PM   #223
Parkar

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Depends on a few things.

Jonof needs to make a new release with /g working. (dont want to make a release with everything in a folder)

Need to do the "quality revision" of all things. (inprogress)

Optionally have some nice hud weapons if the other 2 takes long enough.

There will not be a patch since a lot of textures will be recompressed and there is a completly new structure wich is now incorperated (And I aint ever touching it again).
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Old 02-21-2005, 03:42 PM   #224
Iggy

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Ah, I see. Then we'll have to be patience then.
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Old 02-21-2005, 04:00 PM   #225
CorpusC
Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Quote:
Night Hacker said:
Again I ask, what in hell do BMPs have to do with JPGs or PNGs? They're not used as textures, sheesh.

I gave you a fact. Fact is, your assertion that smaller file sizes == faster texture loading is just plain wrong.
If you can't figure out the relevance to the conversation....well, then you are special.

So in this specific example Ken's library happens to be best optimized to DECOMPRESS .jpgs.
The decompress speed is what matters. File size has little to do the overall speed of loading a texture on most systems. That was the point I was trying to make and that you were trying to ignore. Feel free to keep discussing it if you wish, I am done on the subject.
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Old 02-21-2005, 04:53 PM   #226
Killd a ton

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Weal i guess your a ignorance then.

any way you twist or turn it bmp will be the slowest texture to load in jfduke3d and jpeg will most likely be the fastest.
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Old 02-21-2005, 05:44 PM   #227
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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Can somebody (soon) make an 'update' patch for the pack ? Theres been a lot of fixes and new models posted in alot of different topics. So could somebody make an update of the pack?
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Old 02-21-2005, 06:57 PM   #228
Killd a ton

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Try reading the curent topic of the discution, that is just excatly what me and parker + others are doing atm
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Old 02-21-2005, 07:28 PM   #229
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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Quote:
Parkar said:
Thinking of making a hrp screen instead of the 3dr logo but not sure if I realy want to remove it since they made the game and I kind of like having it there. Not sure what to do, suggestions are welcome.
Remove that 3DR logo shit out of HRP. The first question I've got when launched jfDuke with HRP was "wtf is that crap doing there". Make some non-3DR-relative logo like this shit I did once I was drunk:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 788947-DN3DLogo.jpg (59.3 KB, 43 views)
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Old 02-21-2005, 10:46 PM   #230
Atum Ra
Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Quote:
Remove that 3DR logo shit out of HRP. The first question I've got when launched jfDuke with HRP was "wtf is that crap doing there". Make some non-3DR-relative logo like this shit I did once I was drunk:
Thats frikkin wicked!!! I get most of my good ideas when im tired or drunk too :P
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Old 02-21-2005, 11:35 PM   #231
Night Hacker

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Note to self: Backup 3DR Logo so it doesn't get replaced.
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Old 02-22-2005, 02:35 AM   #232
Iggy

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Quote:
Night Hacker said:
Note to self: Backup 3DR Logo so it doesn't get replaced.
I'll follow your example. =P
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Old 02-22-2005, 05:50 AM   #233
Piterplus

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Quote:
Parkar said:
Going through the pack improving texture quality on my textures.
.......
The reson I am doing this is to repair any damage I have done to textures by using photoshops 8-bit palletteizer wich is realy bad as soon as you have more then 1 color on the texture.
Dies it mean that your beatiful stripper model skin was also converted from 24 bit to 8 bit? (actually, some artifacts are noticable) If it so , maybe you could release it in 24 bit formal separately (for forum users, who not going to load whole new pack)
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Old 02-22-2005, 08:38 AM   #234
Killd a ton

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
you can find the original in his sdk (stripper developing kit)
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Old 02-22-2005, 10:10 AM   #235
Parkar

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
here are comparison pics ahowing what I am doing.

This is the texture as it is in the current pack.
http://hem.bredband.net/pa_duke/1312_stripper_ps.png

And here is the one that went through bright and png crush instead.
http://hem.bredband.net/pa_duke/1312...per_bright.png

And finaly here is the original 14bit image so you can better see were the 2 images losses precision.
http://hem.bredband.net/pa_duke/1312_stripper.png

This is what I plan on doing on as many textures as possible. To some this might seam like lunacy since there is not very much diffrence between the two but I like it better when its as good as it can be.

What realy is the diffrence is that bright preserves the image quality better then ps and then pngcrush is used to find the optimal compression format. So to save space all I would need is run pngcrush since that makes the image as small as the bright version (even smaller in this example) but I realy like to improve the color quality as well.

edit: updated the bright version since I found the eyes and lip not good enough and managed to make it abot smallerr by making more unused texture space balck.
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Old 02-22-2005, 11:14 AM   #236
CorpusC
Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Quote:
Killd a ton said:
Weal i guess your a ignorance then.

any way you twist or turn it bmp will be the slowest texture to load in jfduke3d and jpeg will most likely be the fastest.
u seem to have trouble with the english language.
i have no problem with that.
it is just kind of ironic to tell me i am ignorant when you can't understand what I said.
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Old 02-22-2005, 04:10 PM   #237
Phayzon

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Quote:
Killd a ton said:
Try reading the curent topic of the discution, that is just excatly what me and parker + others are doing atm

Yeah sorry about that i just gave up reading cuz ive been waiting for my account approval for so long now... Its an even longer story than that but ill just leave it at that.
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Old 02-22-2005, 06:33 PM   #238
Roma Loom

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
Quote:
Night Hacker said:
Note to self: Backup 3DR Logo so it doesn't get replaced.
Hey, Neil - I'm not against this 3DR logo - I'm only against its very poor quality.
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Old 02-22-2005, 08:23 PM   #239
peter_m_green
Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
what about modding the game to resize the logo and draw something else with it?
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Old 02-22-2005, 09:08 PM   #240
Odin
 

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D: High resolution pack released
I use the red-style 3DR logo, which I ripped from the Highres Textures Zip Pack. Not too hard on the eyes.

Anyways, I think that the newer DN3D intro screen is too bright. I could just darken it a bit, though, if I had better art-editing programs than MSPaint.
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