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Old 11-09-2008, 01:39 PM   #1
Drazula

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DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
Spore, Fallout 3, Far Cry 2 etc. have caused an uproar with their DRM. Worse, they are forcing people to find "creative" ways of getting their legal copies working. The most ridiculous thing about all of this is that the DRM is worked around just as fast as the tried and true CD checks.

If someone is determined get a game for free they are going to do it. But to force paying customers to behave like pirates to get their game to work, something is very wrong. Hasn't any seen what has happened with music DRM and the RIAA?

Can someone at 3DR explain to me why publishers of PC games keep pissing off their paying customers with draconian DRM? Why use SecuROM over a simple CD check?
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Old 11-09-2008, 01:44 PM   #2
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
I think the solution is steam to be honest. It's the mid-point. It's DRM, but it also gives you added bonuses, such as redownloading the game on new installs, manuals you just click to access, the steam overlay and for some games achievements and server browsers. The average user can't pirate the game, but as usual if pirates want it - they'll get it.

I think the bigger problem is when games use securom WHILE on steam. That's just plain retarded. I mean we already need an internet connection to even install the game, why ask again to run it the first time? That's nonsense and they know it.
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Old 11-09-2008, 02:28 PM   #3
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
I doubt that developers have much choice about the copy protection used by the game.
I always thought DRM was inflicted on us by the publishers.
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Old 11-09-2008, 02:30 PM   #4
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
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I always thought DRM was inflicted on us by the publishers.
Bingo.
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Old 11-09-2008, 02:34 PM   #5
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
It's like they don't care what the consumers think -- all they want is to be convinced that the developers are doing something to "stop" piracy. Unfortunately, they're no longer fooled into thinking that a CD-key will cut it, and demand ever-more intrusive "anti-piracy" measures. Maybe eventually they'll realise that it's hurting sales... though they'll probably abandon PC gaming entirely when they do
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Old 11-09-2008, 03:12 PM   #6
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
like I have said many times before, drm is not targeted towards piracy, it is targeted towards the resale market. it is questionable as to if piracy causes any lost revenue, whereas the resale market does cause lots of lost revenue. Now they will certainly claim piracy, but in this case you can follow the money to see the reasons.
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Old 11-09-2008, 03:17 PM   #7
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
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Maybe eventually they'll realise that it's hurting sales... though they'll probably abandon PC gaming entirely when they do
Then people will start pirating more console games.
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Old 11-09-2008, 03:20 PM   #8
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
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Originally Posted by Drazula View Post
Why use SecuROM over a simple CD check?
That is Fallout 3 uses from the SecuROM suite. You don't have to use all the options. Sadly people are retards and see SecuROM and do not research.
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Old 11-09-2008, 05:22 PM   #9
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Cool Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
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That is Fallout 3 uses from the SecuROM suite. You don't have to use all the options. Sadly people are retards and see SecuROM and do not research.
Granted, SecuROM's reputation proceeds itself. Is that the fault of the consumer?

Bethesda is using a tank as a golf cart. People are still having problems with Fallout 3 DRM. Otherwise, why would there be a replacement executable?

As for publishers, they better be careful because SecuROM may have the legal status of a rootkit. Honestly, I never liked CD checks, but I understood them. This DRM makes no sense to me.
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Old 11-09-2008, 05:51 PM   #10
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
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Bethesda is using a tank as a golf cart. People are still having problems with Fallout 3 DRM. Otherwise, why would there be a replacement executable?
Hmm. Emulation software. You know, copy protection usually has problems with that.
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Old 11-09-2008, 11:59 PM   #11
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
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Hmm. Emulation software. You know, copy protection usually has problems with that.
That can harm some legit customers. A friend of mine plays games on his laptop, but his laptop's DVD drive got busted. Whenever he wants to install a new game, he has to rip a disc image using another PC, save it on his pen drive, then extract it to his laptop's desktop to emulate a virtual drive.
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Old 11-10-2008, 01:39 AM   #12
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
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like I have said many times before, drm is not targeted towards piracy, it is targeted towards the resale market. it is questionable as to if piracy causes any lost revenue, whereas the resale market does cause lots of lost revenue. Now they will certainly claim piracy, but in this case you can follow the money to see the reasons.
CD Keys already screw up the resale market, as they can get banned and someone can give that key to a retailer.

No retailer around here even accepts used PC games anymore.
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:37 AM   #13
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
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That can harm some legit customers. A friend of mine plays games on his laptop, but his laptop's DVD drive got busted. Whenever he wants to install a new game, he has to rip a disc image using another PC, save it on his pen drive, then extract it to his laptop's desktop to emulate a virtual drive.
On the other hand - how many people actually do have to do it that way?


That secuROM has the status of a rootkit isn't really new, though. It's been said many many times and still it is being used fpr retail games.
avatar_58 is right, I guess: Steam probably is the best solution for both sides when it comes to (anti)piracy without DRM on DVDs.
It's still no easy topic, though. I cuold write pages about the Pros and Cons of each side - it's a topic that has be discussed to death and still there is no definate yes or no answer.
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:53 AM   #14
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
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On the other hand - how many people actually do have to do it that way?
It's sad companies have to think about making that "tradeoff". Harming legit customers (even in the slightest) while attempting (and let's be honest, failing) to fend off pirates should be a very objectionable stance. Then again, almost no company cares about it, and the mistrust placed upon their fellow sly, human clients is easily explained, I'm afraid.
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:59 AM   #15
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
Even publishers know this stuff doesn't work, but there are shareholders to pacified, and that's what they want.
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Old 11-10-2008, 07:00 AM   #16
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
I'm kinda curious about the shareholders of video/computer game companies. Are they just normal people, or people who know how the game industry works?
 
Old 11-10-2008, 07:27 AM   #17
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
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It's sad companies have to think about making that "tradeoff". Harming legit customers (even in the slightest) while attempting (and let's be honest, failing) to fend off pirates should be a very objectionable stance. Then again, almost no company cares about it, and the mistrust placed upon their fellow sly, human clients is easily explained, I'm afraid.
Contrary to consoles you always have problems with all the numerous hardware setups. I am sure the developers and even the publishers want to be sure that a product runs on as many different hardware setups as bossible. After all every unsopported system is a potential loss in sales. It's not just a 'tradeoff' for the user.
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Old 11-10-2008, 08:15 AM   #18
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
I don't understand what's the big deal with DRM. It allows you to install the game an infinite number of time on the same machine UP TO 5 different machines. How many computers do you need really?
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Old 11-10-2008, 08:20 AM   #19
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
I'm also finding out that EBGames/GameStop's Download Service that they came up with is probably DRM, pretty much. Seems like that's what GameStop resorted to now, since their physical CD-ROM in a box on the shelf thing seems to be fading away from their stores, and putting them all on downloads that you have to activate upon download for up to 3 times. Might be okay that they're doing that, but nothing beats the feeling of walking up to the cashier and getting the actual CD-ROM/DVD-ROM version of that game.
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Old 11-10-2008, 08:26 AM   #20
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
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I don't understand what's the big deal with DRM. It allows you to install the game an infinite number of time on the same machine UP TO 5 different machines. How many computers do you need really?
If you upgrade that's a different machine, some DRM methods consider a new CPU or new GPU to be a 'new machine'. Securom has a 'de-activate' utility but it would be better knowing they don't limit future installs.
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Old 11-10-2008, 10:01 AM   #21
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Duke Nukem Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
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Originally Posted by Drazula View Post
Can someone at 3DR explain to me why publishers of PC games keep pissing off their paying customers with draconian DRM?
Because it keeps the shareholders happy. It's as simple as that.
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Old 11-10-2008, 10:03 AM   #22
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Duke Nukem Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
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CD Keys already screw up the resale market, as they can get banned and someone can give that key to a retailer.

No retailer around here even accepts used PC games anymore.
Yep. The PC resale market is pretty much dead seeing as publisher pressure put an end to it years ago.
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Old 11-10-2008, 10:05 AM   #23
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
Nah I can still by used PC games at Mega Media Xchange, it's great - even older titles.
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Old 11-10-2008, 10:09 AM   #24
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
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Nah I can still by used PC games at Mega Media Xchange, it's great - even older titles.
Yes but securom and online activation tools are putting an end to it. You can't resell a game like Mass Effect or Bioshock.
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Old 11-10-2008, 10:09 AM   #25
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Duke Nukem Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
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Nah I can still by used PC games at Mega Media Xchange, it's great - even older titles.
You can find the odd store that stocks used PC titles, but they're not as ubiquitous as they used to be, and it's generally a very small selection.
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Old 11-10-2008, 10:12 AM   #26
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
I saw Bioshock for resale
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Old 11-10-2008, 01:58 PM   #27
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
The basic problem with DRM is that it will never work on PCs where "non-trusted" software (like debuggers and virtual machines) are allowed to run alongside the protected software.

The only exception to this I can think of are MMORPGs, where a constant internet connection is required. This allows the publisher to continuously check the validity of the users keys, file CRCs, etc and deny access to the game server, if necessary.
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:22 PM   #28
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
Yeah, I was looking at GameStop's site for a physical copy of a game, but the only way that they seem to sell those is through download only now, which sux. No matter why their PC game section in brick and mortar is dwindling.
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:43 PM   #29
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
To stop resellers?!? Hmm, could that be it!? I didn't think the PC game reseller market was ever big... not like consoles.

Don't get me wrong, a minor inconvenience to protect from being robbed is one thing. And a CD check does that just fine. But this other stuff, c'mon. If this stuff was around in the Quake and Duke 3D days, do you think we could still fire them up and play them without going through some nightmare? Heck, for some of us upgrade fiends, even Max Payne would have been installed on several PCs by now.

CD check good, all this other stuff is the pits.
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Old 11-10-2008, 04:02 PM   #30
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
Just doesn't feel right when you go to an online reseller just to find that you have to download it on a limited basis vs. buying a physical copy with a CD Key without big brother watching how many times you download and install a game and where you download and install it on. I'm one of those who likes to buy once, and have that game follow me from one PC build to the next when I upgrade to a new machine. I don't want to have to buy a whole new copy of a game when I have to reformat or build a new PC. That's just TOO overprotective, imo.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:45 PM   #31
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Re: DRM for PC Games... Can I get a developers view
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Honestly, I never liked CD checks, but I understood them. This DRM makes no sense to me.
My thoughts exactly. Simple things like CD Keys and Checks make perfect sence, but all the crazy methods out there nowadays I just dont understand the least bit
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