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Old 06-27-2007, 12:33 PM   #1
8IronBob

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Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Ever since I have a dual-boot between Vista and XP for software development, I've been using Visual Studio 6.0 as well as Visual Studio 2005. However, it seems like Vista seems to only support the most current, which is .Net-based, I HATE .NET!!! It's just too difficult to get used to, I'm sorry. I still would much rather use VS 6.0 and be done with it. Seems like the only language from the 6.0 days that Vista supports is Visual Basic, I mean, that's alright, but C++ and J++ are still by far the best. C# is nice for VS 2005, but it's still makes slow, boring apps. Anyone think that .Net is something to dread?
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:42 PM   #2
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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
What you got against .NET? If you don't like it, you can always still use C++ or Visual Basic as you say. So what's the problem? C# is about as useful as the next language too, so I don't understand what you mean by "boring" apps.

You could try Boo, that's a language for .NET, which is inspired by Python and includes Python-esque and Ruby-esque features.

There's also another language, IronPython, which is essentially Python ported for the .NET platform. AFAIK they've kept it as close to Python as possible.

If I understand you correctly, I don't think you really have a problem with .NET itself, just don't like the languages you tried to use with the CLI.
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:56 PM   #3
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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Well, it's not that I don't like it, but just too much to learn to convert from the old traditional code that we've been used to for at least the last 10 - 15 years. Plus converting code from VS 6.0 to VS .NET 2005 can be somewhat challenging, because VS 2005 doesn't seem to accept the traditional code at all...

In laymen's terms, I just don't like that VS 2005's not b/c to VS 6.0 code, and trying to find a good tutorial website or a book is frustrating in trying to convert VS 6.0 code to VS .NET, because hardly anyone has anything in laymen's terms whatsoever.
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Old 06-27-2007, 04:19 PM   #4
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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Absolutely LOVE .NET - I've been doing JAVA for the last year and I can't wait to go back.
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Old 06-27-2007, 05:49 PM   #5
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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
It's a rather common misconception that you must use .NET when using VS2005. You don't have to touch .NET/managed code at all, and it can still do C/C++ just fine.

As an example, I've compiled DOSBox's source, a non-.NET app, within VS2005 just fine.

The difference is that VS2005 doesn't include things like the Windows platform SDK, in favor of .NET. However, you can still install the Platform SDK separately, and you can still use most of the common C/C++ libraries out there.

There are options you can tweak in the project settings to determine whether it'll use managed (.NET) code, unmanaged (native) code, or both. I'm not sure where the option is off-hand, but it's there.
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Old 06-28-2007, 02:19 AM   #6
Altered Reality

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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
I hate .NET, and not because it's difficult: you eventually get used to its programming style. I hate it because it's SO DAMN SLOW!!! An application written in VB6 runs super-fast on a Pentium 200 w/MMX. The VERY SAME APPLICATION, converted to VB 2005, slows down to a crawl on a 2 GHz Pentium IV and eats a lot of memory. WTF is with that? Does Microsoft think that speed in your apps is just "a nice side effect"?
And no, "get a real computer" is not a solution. Can you imagine saying that to the customers that will have to run your application?
"Hey, why is the latest version of your program so slow?"
"That's just the way VB 2005 is! Get a real computer!"
"Sure I will, along with a program from your competitors!"
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Old 06-28-2007, 02:39 AM   #7
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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
They use .net where I work and the IT boys are all trying to get me interesting in using it for my job (I'm a web developer there).

But having used PHP and MySQL for a long time I think it'll be a huge jump to .net especially since it's not purely web based.
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Old 06-28-2007, 03:05 AM   #8
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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
.net is a proprietary Microsoft standard.

I am more interested in PHP, PEAR MySQL, Typo3 and AJAX if you have to deal with the new possibilities of web development.

Programming with .net seems to be more interesting if you can be sure that people do not show any interest in different operating system. mono does not seem to be a good choice for ported .net applications.

Why should one restart to learn .net if he can already solve his problems using Java?
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Old 06-28-2007, 08:16 AM   #9
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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Altered Reality: You have the same issues with Java. In fact, IMO, .NET runs significantly faster. Additionally there are plenty of things that can be done to speed the app up - most developers are simply lazy, or don't know how the runtime works and starts up.

Mon2908: .NET is no more a proprietary standard than JAVA. IMO switching back and forth from JAVA isn't hard. If you know one, you'll know the other (with the namespaces changing). IMO, .NET's advantage over JAVA is speed and configuration. It's far easier to get things up and running in .NET. Like you said though, Mono isn't a viable option for making .NET cross platform so if that's an issue then JAVA becomes the obvious choice.

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Old 06-28-2007, 08:56 AM   #10
Shadow Master

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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
.NET rocks, great for writing GUI applications quickly, demonstrating facts, etc.
I usually program in plain C though.

(And I learned C# .NET before C/C++ and Java)
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Old 06-28-2007, 10:06 AM   #11
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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
check your memory usage, then load a small .net app and check the memory usage again. you are not doing anyone any favors by distributing .net apps.
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Old 06-28-2007, 10:20 AM   #12
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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
That's why I write most end-user programs in C/C++ (no, not the .NET variant).
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Old 06-28-2007, 10:53 AM   #13
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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Bloodshed and DJGPP, and what not, they don't seem to use the .NET structure yet, do they?
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Old 06-28-2007, 10:57 AM   #14
Shadow Master

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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Or GNU compiler tools. And you can produce nice light-weight Windows native applications (which don't need the .NET thingy to run) with MS Visual C++ 2005.

And you don't even need that bunch of IDE. Just download the plain C++ compiler from Microsoft's download page and build everything by hand or by writing your own makefiles.
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Old 06-28-2007, 12:16 PM   #15
Samji

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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mon2908 View Post
.net is a proprietary Microsoft standard.
It's also an ECMA standard and has non-Microsoft sanctioned implementations such as Mono and dotGNU.
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Old 06-28-2007, 12:48 PM   #16
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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
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That's why I write most end-user programs in C/C++ (no, not the .NET variant).
That would be theoretically the best way, and that's how some months ago I wrote an app (a ladder diagram editor and interpreter). It was completely written in C. Not even Visual C, pure hardcore C code, and that includes the GUI (that's right, I did not use the standard Windows GUI elements, I made my own, specifically for that program). It was lightning fast. Unfortunately, the knuckleheads I made it for were totally confused by the nonstandard GUI, and they DEMANDED that I rewrote the program so that it looked like a Windows program.
And rewrite it I did. In VB2005.
The result was a piece of bloatware that looked just like any Windows application... and ran just as slow as any .NET application. But hey, if that prevents lusers from (god forbid!) reading a manual, and I'm paid explicitly to write bloatware, then I'm gonna write some bloatware like nobody ever did, not even the code monkeys who make barely functional operating systems at Microsoft!
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Old 06-29-2007, 03:17 AM   #17
Samji

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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
@A. Reality: I'm sensing a real hostility towards Microsoft. To be fair, Microsoft operating systems are not that bad generally. Still prefer Linux though.
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Old 06-29-2007, 04:39 AM   #18
Altered Reality

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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Not towards Microsoft in general. Towards Vista (that's what I meant with "barely functional operating systems") and the .NET products.
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Old 07-03-2007, 04:18 PM   #19
Destroyer
Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8IronBob View Post
Ever since I have a dual-boot between Vista and XP for software development, I've been using Visual Studio 6.0 as well as Visual Studio 2005. However, it seems like Vista seems to only support the most current, which is .Net-based, I HATE .NET!!! It's just too difficult to get used to, I'm sorry. I still would much rather use VS 6.0 and be done with it. Seems like the only language from the 6.0 days that Vista supports is Visual Basic, I mean, that's alright, but C++ and J++ are still by far the best. C# is nice for VS 2005, but it's still makes slow, boring apps. Anyone think that .Net is something to dread?
umm dont use .net then.
and dude .net is sooooo awesome you have no idea.
if you find it hard to get use to .net i can almost bet you havent tried to make a gui app using just C++/win32 or something like that.

"C# is nice for VS 2005, but it's still makes slow, boring apps."
WTF are you smoking dude. C# rocks. perhalps your a boring programmer?


but honestly dude .net is the future for alot of things. dont avoid it, learn it and enjoy it.
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Old 07-03-2007, 04:19 PM   #20
Destroyer
Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
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Originally Posted by Altered Reality View Post
Not towards Microsoft in general. Towards Vista (that's what I meant with "barely functional operating systems") and the .NET products.
Why is it barely functional? mine seems to be 100% functional.
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Old 07-04-2007, 07:07 AM   #21
8IronBob

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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Heh, I guess you're right... Maybe it's just because I've been doing traditional coding for more than 10+ years, and never gave .Net a chance... It's just that I never saw any backwards compatibility when I slapped in VS 2005 to the 6.0 code, and never bothered to adapt the code to .Net.
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Old 07-04-2007, 07:49 AM   #22
Shadow Master

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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samji View Post
@A. Reality: I'm sensing a real hostility towards Microsoft. To be fair, Microsoft operating systems are not that bad generally. Still prefer Linux though.
I'm glad to know I'm not the only Linux user who doesn't hate Microsoft operating system. I've got a full collection of them anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the thread starter
I mean, that's alright, but C++ and J++ are still by far the best. [...]
Weren't Visual J++ and MS Java VM deemed illegal due to their scarce (if any) interoperatibility and such with the real Java systems (i.e. Sun Microsystem's)?
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Old 07-04-2007, 04:26 PM   #23
8IronBob

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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Well, I'm guessing that J# is under about the same type of heat that J++ was. Just better hope that they won't be sued out of a lot. I know that Microsoft was in hot water for some things in the past by others claiming that they wanted exclusive rights. Just better hope that .Net wasn't based off of somebody else's technology framework, loosely, or in whole.
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Old 07-04-2007, 04:28 PM   #24
Shadow Master

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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
I thought J# was discontinued as J++ was.
The only technology .NET seems to be based on is Microsoft's COM+ framework.
And the Side-by-side assemblies technology which was introduced with Windows Whistler.

There are some weird similarities between .NET CLR and MSIL, and Sun's Java implementation and Virtual Machine mechanism.

Besides that, .NET uses an extension of the Win32 ABI, which are called .NET assemblies, basically Portable Executables with MSIL metadata and such.
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Old 07-04-2007, 04:41 PM   #25
8IronBob

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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Hmm, okay. I notice that there are other development tools outside of Visual Studio that use .Net, like Borland's Turbo series. Bloodshed doesn't use .Net, does it? I'm not sure if that was answered.

As stated before, I don't mind .Net, but I just don't like that there's no backwards compatibility to older code that is difficult to reconvert to the new standard. All sorts of different things to learn from traditional code to the new .Net code, that's where I was originally going for, as in reviving old programs of mine written in C/C++ from the earlier Windows days, and even DOS.
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:52 PM   #26
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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Well, .NET isn't the end all, be all of programming.

Despite its name, I don't think C# (or perhaps any .NET-centered language) is directly comparable to C/C++. I see them as separate things. Native code still has its place, especially for performance-intensive applications (like emulators).

If you're starting a new GUI app from scratch, it's probably not a bad idea to go with .NET. Only problem is portability, since Mono doesn't implement .NET's WinForms functions 100%. I believe there are alternative .NET/Mono GUI toolkits though.

And with things like the Tao Framework and SdlDotNet, it's become pretty feasible to write cross-platform .NET-based games.
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Old 07-05-2007, 08:07 AM   #27
Shadow Master

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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Quote:
Despite its name, I don't think C# (or perhaps any .NET-centered language) is directly comparable to C/C++. I see them as separate things. Native code still has its place, especially for performance-intensive applications (like emulators).
Oh, it's a completely different language based on some of C++ conventions. In contrast, C++ is an extension to C language, whereas C# is not. Your thoughts are facts.

Quote:
If you're starting a new GUI app from scratch, it's probably not a bad idea to go with .NET.
Ditto.

Quote:
Only problem is portability, since Mono doesn't implement .NET's WinForms functions 100%.
I guessed so.

Quote:
And with things like the Tao Framework and SdlDotNet, it's become pretty feasible to write cross-platform .NET-based games.
I prefer to write native cross-platform applications in C/C++ using cross-platform libraries, such as SDL (native SDL), Allegro and the good old C Runtime Library and C++ STL.

Just remember, AFAIK, most important applications nowadays are still written without .NET thingies like this.
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Old 07-05-2007, 12:02 PM   #28
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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Quote:
Why is it barely functional?
1) It's not user-friendly, it's user-obsequious. Okay for a media center, bad for anything else.
2) It takes more RAM and more processor power for nothing.
3) It does not allow non-certified drivers to be installed. So if someone wants to build a peripheral with drivers, he MUST pay Microsoft to have those drivers certified.
4) Compatibility with OpenGL games is a joke (of the kind where nobody laughs).
5) Existing drivers are buggy, and drivers for non-mainstream peripherals (stereoscopy, virtual reality) do not exist.

These points give me the idea of an operating system for people who use a computer like they would use a radio or a TV (=no programming and no gaming).
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Old 07-05-2007, 12:05 PM   #29
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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
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Originally Posted by Altered Reality View Post
3) It does not allow non-certified drivers to be installed. So if someone wants to build a peripheral with drivers, he MUST pay Microsoft to have those drivers certified.
My god, there must be some way to change that behaviour in system properties, or by manual registry editing. Otherwise all we can do is fu** Microsoft!
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Old 07-05-2007, 03:12 PM   #30
Delta

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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Doesn't the "certified drivers only" thing only apply to the 64-bit edition? At least for video drivers, I was able to install non-WHQL certified drivers just fine. Just like XP, it only gives a warning before letting you install the driver.
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Old 07-05-2007, 10:11 PM   #31
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Red face Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8IronBob
Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
We all do. Because it's clearly obvious that COBOL is the best language ever, and always will be.
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Old 07-06-2007, 04:31 AM   #32
Samji

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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta View Post
Only problem is portability, since Mono doesn't implement .NET's WinForms functions 100%. I believe there are alternative .NET/Mono GUI toolkits though.
Yeah, GTK# is a popular alternative.
Winforms is still nicer if you're targeting Windows though. GTK# has the advantage of being able to run 100% on many systems though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Master View Post
I thought J# was discontinued as J++ was.
I thought that too, due to Microsoft losing a lawsuit filed against them by Sun Microsystems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Master View Post
I'm glad to know I'm not the only Linux user who doesn't hate Microsoft operating system. I've got a full collection of them anyway.
I Linux. It has some really nice tools.
For games and stuff like that, Windows.

Although I did manage to get Max Payne working on Ubuntu - no sound though. I maybe need to use a "restricted" driver for that, rather than ALSA.
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Old 07-07-2007, 08:52 AM   #33
8IronBob

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Re: Who else thinks .Net is a pain in the butt?
Well, J# is in the original VS2005 suite, IIRC. I'm not too sure if it's Vista compatible after that lawsuit or not... It may be discontinued now, but since I have that Standard Edition package, it was still included. Just have to be careful on what I use that language for.
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