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Old 04-06-2007, 05:49 AM   #401
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
John Carmack could learn something from these guys when it comes to lightning.

Ain't that the truth
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Old 04-06-2007, 06:23 AM   #402
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
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Keep in mind that the games you mentioned are based on maps which are much smaller than big open world of this game. If people really think that this game is graphically on par with mentioned games that is really an achievement. I don't really think that it has pretty standard graphics for today. Look at Oblivion and other open world games which are full of ugly compromises to make it posible to run decently.


Just name one todays game that is able to produce visuals like this:

http://www.pelit.fi/uploads/pics/Alan_Wake_2006_011.jpg

John Carmack could learn something from these guys when it comes to lightning.
please only post the url to the image, not the image itself.
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Old 04-06-2007, 06:58 AM   #403
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
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Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
Just name one todays game that is able to produce visuals like this:

http://www.pelit.fi/uploads/pics/Alan_Wake_2006_011.jpg

John Carmack could learn something from these guys when it comes to lightning.
Minus the insane amount of AA and in a playable resolution you will be surprised how good it looks.
For sure it won´t look bad...but it isn´t the best thing ever.
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Old 04-06-2007, 07:09 AM   #404
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
John Carmack could learn something from these guys when it comes to lightning.

Anyone can do lightning.

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Old 04-06-2007, 07:20 AM   #405
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
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Anyone can do lightning.
Not funny
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Old 04-06-2007, 07:22 AM   #406
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
Wasn't a joke.
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Old 04-06-2007, 07:25 AM   #407
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
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Wasn't a joke.
I know, you grammar nazi
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Old 04-06-2007, 07:44 AM   #408
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
In that case spelling not grammar (just kidding).

But anyway, AW, uses the same kind of lighting as Doom 3. Unified Per-Pixel Lighting, although obviously since the game will be shipping 3-4 years, most likely the latter, after Doom 3, the specific lighting model used will be more advanced. But the concept is exactly the same.

Edit:

The same holds true, more or less, for STALKER, UE3, CryEngine 2, Offset Engine.
Last edited by Kristian Joensen; 04-06-2007 at 07:47 AM.
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Old 04-06-2007, 08:20 AM   #409
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen View Post
But anyway, AW, uses the same kind of lighting as Doom 3. Unified Per-Pixel Lighting, although obviously since the game will be shipping 3-4 years, most likely the latter, after Doom 3, the specific lighting model used will be more advanced. But the concept is exactly the same.

Edit:

The same holds true, more or less, for STALKER, UE3, CryEngine 2, Offset Engine.
Yah, so if I write a pixel shader that puts out a blank white screen I'm using exactly the same lighting concept as Doom 3.
Seriously, apart from both being evaluated on a per-pixel basis (e.g. Phong shading; not to be mistaken with phong illumination) they most likely won't share a lot of similarity.
The shading method is just a negligible little detail compared to what's going on in the background in order to find the illumination values assigned to each Pixel (e.g. the illumination model).

Not sure if you're really interested but try reading up on jaakko lehtinens (from remedy) work on precomputed radiance transfer and spherical harmonics in case you are.
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Old 04-06-2007, 03:05 PM   #410
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
@theHunted: You got the link to Jaakko Lehtinens articles? Just thought of reading it for extra info. I can't seem to find it using Google.
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Old 04-08-2007, 01:31 PM   #411
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
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@theHunted: You got the link to Jaakko Lehtinens articles? Just thought of reading it for extra info. I can't seem to find it using Google.
Here you go:
http://www.tml.tkk.fi/~jaakko/
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Old 04-08-2007, 09:10 PM   #412
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethe
I'm totally confident that their game will be success visually, at least for me. I mean, Remedy are gods of flawless texturing, and believe it or not, my opinion is that max payne 2 is still one of the best looking games on the market. It didn't age a bit. Thanks to their texturing skills it still looks outstandingly real.
Yeah MP2 really does good, because of the high quality art they used throughout the game. It still looks sweet for a 2003 game.

I do think that AW does have very nice lighting shown within all the shots, creating a moody atmosphere of being in a remote countryside town. The car's do look a bit out of place compared to the surroundings which look exceptionally detailed. The only real complaint I have is that I don't have a computer capable of running this when it comes out. Yet.
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Old 04-08-2007, 11:50 PM   #413
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
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You've always been a good digger. Do you have more links like that for the rest of the team members so a person like me could quench his fanboyism??

BTW, those papers were nice. Not that I understood most of it.
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Old 04-09-2007, 09:33 AM   #414
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
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You've always been a good digger. Do you have more links like that for the rest of the team members so a person like me could quench his fanboyism??

BTW, those papers were nice. Not that I understood most of it.
Yeah, that stuff is quite involved. To be honest I didn't really mean to recommend those reads to anybody except for people with quite some experience on that field. I was mainly about pointing out how involved and complex the matter can be, and that it's not "just the same concept as doom 3", like Kristian Joensen said. I could go on bashing how STALKER's lighting approach is yet such another fundamentally new and different approach (google up "deferred shading"), but I'm just gonna stop it here.

Anyways, back to the fanboi talk. Unfortunately Jakkoo's stuff is the only one I know of, and hey at least it's got some fancy pictures for everybody to enjoy easily . I'm sure you've already seen the old gamasutra article on level design for max payne 1 by marvel, haven't you?
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Old 04-09-2007, 01:30 PM   #415
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
Does this game have a release date or it's a WID project?
BTW, looking forward for it
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Old 04-09-2007, 06:04 PM   #416
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
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Does this game have a release date or it's a WID project?
BTW, looking forward for it
When it's done.
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Old 04-09-2007, 06:12 PM   #417
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
I just saw through Remedy's bullshit:

Since MS is publishing their game, MS wants to push Vista and leave XP in the dust - so what better than to tell a developer to release only for the latest platform(s) that *shock* are only developed my Microsoft!

Sellouts.
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Old 04-09-2007, 06:15 PM   #418
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
What do you mean "just"? We've all been saying that since it was announced that Vista was a requirement. It will most likely use DX10 effects, but I mean really - theres no reason they can't make DX10 XP compatible.
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Old 04-09-2007, 07:05 PM   #419
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
No, i'm pretty sure their publishing deal means Vista only.

Really sucks they're going to screw over so many people who don't want/need to upgrade for Vista.
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Old 04-09-2007, 08:44 PM   #420
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
I am seriously thinking MS want to destroy PC gaming.
1. 360 exclusives to delate PC release...can you image playing Jade Empire after 2 years of its initial release on xbox?

2. The prohibiting cost of New OS and hardwares to further reduce the demand of PC gaming.
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Old 04-09-2007, 09:10 PM   #421
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
No, MS is just stretching for reasons for anyone to upgrade to their newest operating system.
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Old 04-10-2007, 01:09 AM   #422
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
Well, MS probably wants gamers to move on to Vista so they can market Windows as a gaming platform that's easy to use and doesn't have the problems associated with PC gaming. They're screwing the hardcore gamers while doing it, but I do think PC gaming needs to change to survive. Hopefully the hardware race slows down once quad cores gain hold in the marketplace.
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Old 04-10-2007, 06:19 AM   #423
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
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What do you mean "just"? We've all been saying that since it was announced that Vista was a requirement. It will most likely use DX10 effects, but I mean really - theres no reason they can't make DX10 XP compatible.
But DX10 cannot be made XP compatible unless you provide previous compatibility with previous versions of DirectX with a game. By making it Vista-exclusive, Remedy can focus development solely on DX10, eliminating a decent chunk of development time and QA testing.
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Old 04-10-2007, 07:01 AM   #424
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
I guess I'll be admiring all the hard work Remedy put into Alan Wake by watching
the videos and looking at pictures because I'll be damned if I'm switching to
Vista to play it.
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Old 04-10-2007, 07:22 AM   #425
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
Alan Wake supports DX9.

Quote:
Yah, so if I write a pixel shader that puts out a blank white screen I'm using exactly the same lighting concept as Doom 3.
This is straw man, seeing as Phong shading is an ACTUAL lighting model based on actual observations of how lighting works. It is an approximation of how lighting works in reality just like all other lighting models.

All I said is that Remedy and a bunch of other developers made the same basic design choice with regards to lighting as John Carmack did as opposed to Valve. Besides which I am pretty sure that AW supports Phong Shading just like UE3. Anyway obviously the specific implementation details will be different seeing as AW will be shipping 4 years after Doom 3. I am not in any way suggesting that these details are unimportant at all. They are of course very important. But the thing is in this day and age that is all stuff done via shader not in the engine code as such.

I am not really disagreeing with you at all.

As far as Deferred Shading goes it is actually something I am really interested in and from what I have seen, a very big proponent off.

Finally the various forms of PRT are very interesting but the biggest problem with them is the P, they are all Precomputed GI solutions. Because of that I find, solutions/techniques like Geomeric's Enligthen and Lightsprint Architect Edition, Splatting Indirect Illumination(talking Deferred Shading) better.
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Old 04-11-2007, 05:43 AM   #426
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
Doesn't Remedy also have to spend a lot of time on getting AW to run under DX9, considering the fact that the 360 doesn't truly support DX10 (which Vista does)?
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Old 04-11-2007, 09:08 AM   #427
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
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Doesn't Remedy also have to spend a lot of time on getting AW to run under DX9, considering the fact that the 360 doesn't truly support DX10 (which Vista does)?
By developing for 360, they will be optimising the game code for three cores, making it easier to adapt the game for multicore systems. They haven't really said much about developing for different versions of DirectX.
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Old 04-11-2007, 10:00 AM   #428
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
And don't forget, even after you bend over for Microsoft & fork out $$$ for a new OS (for no good reason), these Games for Windows titles will most certainly nickel & dime you you to death for every little download that would've been free before this marvelous "upgrade"
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Old 04-11-2007, 10:44 AM   #429
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
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By making it Vista-exclusive, Remedy can focus development solely on DX10, eliminating a decent chunk of development time and QA testing.
.....and a decent chunk of customers. How many people do you think will adopt Vista this early for gaming? The PC platform already has enough trouble selling games, if they think making it Vista only is a good thing they are mistaken. I hope Microsoft is paying an assload of compensation, because they'll need it.
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Old 04-11-2007, 11:28 AM   #430
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
Well lets put it this way, do you think Remedy have agreed to such a contract stipulation without getting anything in return ?
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Old 04-11-2007, 11:41 AM   #431
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
Thats my point. That and they probably predict the PC sales would pale in comparison to the 360 sales, much like every other game of late. So they probably really don't care.

So I'd count on Alan Wake being developed with the 360 in mind, and the PC version just being there for "extra" profit on the side. Count on bugs and consolized issues, because I bet they'll be there.
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:00 PM   #432
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
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Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen View Post
Finally the various forms of PRT are very interesting but the biggest problem with them is the P, they are all Precomputed GI solutions. Because of that I find, solutions/techniques like Geomeric's Enligthen and Lightsprint Architect Edition, Splatting Indirect Illumination(talking Deferred Shading) better.
Well, Jaakko also co-worked on a paper that showed how to bring PRT to dynamic objects ("Hemispherical Rasterization for Self-Shadowing of Dynamic Objects"). However I'm with you in this, I thought other approaches looked more promising. Real-time radiosity (like Lightsprint) is probably gonna be big in a couple of months I bet.
Judging from the videos and screenshots however Remedy (Jaakko) has been coming up with their own impressive lighting tech. Didn't have a doubt about that in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen View Post
"...seeing as Phong shading is an ACTUAL lighting model based on actual observations of how lighting works."
"... Besides which I am pretty sure that AW supports Phong Shading just like UE3."
I thought about whether or not to write this response for a while but I'll just have to be the nit-picking ass now because I think it would be of interest for you, as you seem to be quite into the matter (take this as an honor, not as an attempt to make you down ).
Phong Shading and the Phong Illumination model (or lighting model) are 2 separate things. Phong Shading just means that you are evaluating some illumination model per pixel. Next to Phong Shading there is Gouraud Shading (evaluation of illumination per vertex) and flat shading (per face). I assume you were referring to phong illumination.
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:24 PM   #433
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
Yeah, you are certainly correct in pointing that difference out. Actually that is one thing, I as a simple lay man gamer, can't stand, inconsistent use of terms, even some times in research papers or interviews with developers, etc.

"Hemispherical Rasterization for Self-Shadowing of Dynamic Objects"

That sounds quite interesting, have you got a link to that paper ? Especially since it mentions shadows another area of interest for me. Personally I am a big fan of Penumbral Wedge Rendered Shadow Volumes because of the image quality issues and also from what I understand it provides more accurate penumbra sizes than the VERY VERY many shadow buffer solutions around. As for the self-shadow side of things, shadow volumes(including penumbra wedge rendered ones) can handle that, correct ? Also POM can handle the bump granularity side of that, correct ?

Couldn't PWRSV + POM be a good shadow solution, once it become viable ? For me IQ and physical correctness(as far as possible) > perfomance within reasonable limits

"Real-time radiosity (like Lightsprint) is probably gonna be big in a couple of months I bet."

Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me, I don't know about Lightsprint, but I certainly could see Enligthen becoming popular, seeing how it is available for UE3 licensees, theren't aren't few of those....

"Judging from the videos and screenshots however Remedy (Jaakko) has been coming up with their own impressive lighting tech."

Yeah, that is certainly true, the media from AW sure looks impressive, also in that department.

Edit:

Btw,I enjoy this discussion with you very much.

Edit:
Found it. It sound very interesting, I especially like the "No precomputation is necessary" part so far. I see that Timo Aila is one of the authors he has also worked on Penumbral Wedge Rendered Shadow Volumes.
Last edited by Kristian Joensen; 04-11-2007 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 04-12-2007, 05:31 AM   #434
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen View Post
As for the self-shadow side of things, shadow volumes(including penumbra wedge rendered ones) can handle that, correct ? Also POM can handle the bump granularity side of that, correct ?

Couldn't PWRSV + POM be a good shadow solution, once it become viable ? For me IQ and physical correctness(as far as possible) > perfomance within reasonable limits
I don't really know too much about shadow volumes I have to say. I know how it works in theory and even heard of the wedge technique for soft shadows but can't really comment on specifics or discuss about it.
I'm not sure about the future of shadow volumes. With radiosity you get soft shadows due to area lights for free (not sure but I think they are even physically correct), so I could see shadow volumes and shadow mapping coming to an end once real-time radiosity has its big breakthrough and is fast enough to handle complex scenes. I'm not sure if its capable of doing that right now. But yeah, for now PWRSV + POM combined would most certainly look dope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen View Post
Edit:
Found it. It sound very interesting, I especially like the "No precomputation is necessary" part so far. I see that Timo Aila is one of the authors he has also worked on Penumbral Wedge Rendered Shadow Volumes.
Personally I'm in love with those crazy fin coders. They seem to come up with all the finest lighting techniques

There'd be so many more cool techniques like ambient occlusion (which is what I am working on for a project at university), real-time raytracing and all that to talk about but I think that'd be way too off-topic so let's better not get started.
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Old 04-12-2007, 03:15 PM   #435
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morry View Post
By making it Vista-exclusive, Remedy can focus development solely on DX10, eliminating a decent chunk of development time and QA testing.
But Alan Wake supports DX9. So they're already putting the time in for other version of DX... they've only taken out WinXP support. AW uses two version of DX since Vista will run DX9 based videos cards.

That is the issue a lot of people are having with the game... the game will run in DX9, a version of DX that WinXP has been using for a long time. And yet the game is Vista only.
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Old 04-16-2007, 05:43 AM   #436
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
Is it possible that Remedy thinks Alan Wake won't be out for quite some time (talking late 2008, maybe 2009), and by then a lot of users would have already moved over to Vista (SP1 most likely being available by then)?
Any thoughts on that?


Edit: Don't know if anyone has posted this, but this link has a nice roundup of Alan Wake related media.
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Last edited by Malgon; 04-16-2007 at 06:04 AM.
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Old 04-29-2007, 06:18 PM   #437
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
Some new info today!

http://www.alanwake.com/forum/showthread.php?p=23016

The short version: Microsoft Global PR Manager says that Alan Wake will be out in 2008.
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Old 04-29-2007, 07:13 PM   #438
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
So.. we have some time then.
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Old 04-30-2007, 12:11 AM   #439
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
Some of the alarmist silliness in this thread just became almost sigworthy.
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Old 04-30-2007, 06:09 AM   #440
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Re: Alan Wake - Remedy's New Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morry
Some new info today!

http://www.alanwake.com/forum/showthread.php?p=23016

The short version: Microsoft Global PR Manager says that Alan Wake will be out in 2008
I figured that AW would see a 2008 release date. Maybe that'll give me time to build a new computer, and buy Vista. Or just a 360 instead!
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