Old 04-21-2009, 08:29 AM   #521
Puritan

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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Will moving objects cast shadow?

Example: An outdoor map in bright daylight. And a train/car/whatever passing by. Would it cast shadow as it moves along?
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:26 AM   #522
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Nightflame View Post
How long does the lighting process take?
In what way do you mean exactly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicken View Post
And what about usermaps? what will they look like lightwise?
The same as they do now, apart from hard coded objects that emit light (fire, switches etc)

Lights need to be defined in a similar process as how map hacks work in correcting sprites in the HRP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puritan View Post
Will moving objects cast shadow?

Example: An outdoor map in bright daylight. And a train/car/whatever passing by. Would it cast shadow as it moves along?
Short answer, Yes
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:38 AM   #523
Parkar

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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Nightflame View Post
How long does the lighting process take?
The lighting is fully dynamic so there is no precomputed light pass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicken View Post
And what about usermaps? what will they look like lightwise?
User maps will work just like the official ones. Not sure exactly what you mean with the question. Only difference with a user map is obviously that you can take advantage of both sector lighting and dynamic lights to get the best of both worlds while an already built map will have sector lighting that's not built with dynamic lights in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puritan View Post
Will moving objects cast shadow?

Example: An outdoor map in bright daylight. And a train/car/whatever passing by. Would it cast shadow as it moves along?
Yes. In fact everything will cast shadows including sprites. Anything that the light source can't see will be in shadow.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:52 AM   #524
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
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Originally Posted by Parkar View Post
User maps will work just like the official ones. Not sure exactly what you mean with the question. Only difference with a user map is obviously that you can take advantage of both sector lighting and dynamic lights to get the best of both worlds while an already built map will have sector lighting that's not built with dynamic lights in mind.
That answers my question, thanks. I was just worried that the already built ones would look pitchdark because no additional "new" lightsource is added.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:52 AM   #525
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
does it handle a ton of dynamic light emitting sprites well? like usemaps with lots of fire, or explosions?

cant wait to play it anyway
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:04 AM   #526
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
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Originally Posted by Usurper View Post
ZH was not build-based.
Your kidding me??? Despite the fact that it uses the same textures as the Build Engine, the inability to have room over room? The types of doors used in the game? The lighting effects, the inability to have proper mirrors, the way the cliffs and stuff are built???

It must have been something incredibly close to the build engine... I mean there are too many similarities??? So what engine did it use then???
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:49 AM   #527
Parkar

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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
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Originally Posted by chicken View Post
That answers my question, thanks. I was just worried that the already built ones would look pitchdark because no additional "new" lightsource is added.
The default behaviour is to use the shading in the level. A map hack that overrides the default shading is planed though. I am personally just hard coding everything dark at the moment.

---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piano Man View Post
Your kidding me??? Despite the fact that it uses the same textures as the Build Engine, the inability to have room over room? The types of doors used in the game? The lighting effects, the inability to have proper mirrors, the way the cliffs and stuff are built???

It must have been something incredibly close to the build engine... I mean there are too many similarities??? So what engine did it use then???
I don't recall seeing a single texture being reused from Duke 3D. And even if it did that's no indication of what engine is being used. Neither is the type of doors used.

Where do you get the impression it was incapable of doing room over room? As far as I can tell the Zero Hour game uses a "regular" polygon based graphics engine.

It also looks completely different then Duke 3D in pretty much every aspect from what I recall.
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:28 AM   #528
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
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Originally Posted by Parkar View Post
The lighting is fully dynamic so there is no precomputed light pass.
Mm. Judging by what you said before when I asked that (or someone else.), I assumed it's a prelighting the level sort of thing (Where you go into the map or maphack and manually insert light sources, kind of like the Quake II Evolved project did at one point.).
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Old 04-21-2009, 12:27 PM   #529
Parkar

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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
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Originally Posted by Blade Nightflame View Post
Mm. Judging by what you said before when I asked that (or someone else.), I assumed it's a prelighting the level sort of thing (Where you go into the map or maphack and manually insert light sources, kind of like the Quake II Evolved project did at one point.).
Ohh, I asumed you meant calculating lightmaps or some such.

Obviously it takes quiet a bit of time at the moment as you have to write the hacks manually in a text editor. I'd guess I have spent 50+ hours or so on E1L1 so far. With Mapster32 suport it would be quiet a bit faster of course.
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Old 04-21-2009, 12:47 PM   #530
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
So will Mapster32 support placing lights when the renderer gets released? Or will there be a period where we're all using text editors to place lights in our own maps?
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:00 PM   #531
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Couldn't you just include a new grp file with the icons for thenew lightsources? Then it would be just a case of getting E-Duke to load them on boot and then you can place the lights like sector effectors. If its a seperate GRP, then it won't have to use any of the tile numbers from the DN3D GRP - this prevents problems with user maps and mods.

How optimized is the new renederer?
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:04 PM   #532
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Using maphacks to place lights sucks big time, and I'll bet that gets remedied by release or shortly thereafter. I would not waste any time with maphacks myself.

Also, though I kind of dismissed the idea earlier, it would be possible to write CON script that takes a level and reinterprets it for polymer by adding dynamic lights based on shading, textures, and the sector based lighting effects in the map. The result will not be nearly as good as doing it by hand, but considering the large number of user maps and how much effort it would take to do them properly, an automated method would be welcome.
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Old 04-21-2009, 01:13 PM   #533
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
does it handle a ton of dynamic light emitting sprites well? like usemaps with lots of fire, or explosions?
A ton? Eh, not really. Think of it this way though: even if your rig can't handle dynamic lighting, the renderer still gives you corrected FOV, potential for zoom, and potential for room-over-room. It's epic win for everyone.
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:15 PM   #534
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Wouldn't it be just a matter off defining something like this in the def files?

dummytile 10000 10 10
texture 10000 { pal 0 { file "highres/textures/small_light_source_icon.png" } }

Definelightsource 10000
{
intensity 100
pal 0 { 100 (red intensity) 100 (blue intensity) 100 (green intensity) }
pal 1 { 0 100 0 }
Pal 8 { 0 0 100 }
}

( Or whatever the syntax is for dynamic lighting )

Quote:
A ton? Eh, not really. Think of it this way though: even if your rig can't handle dynamic lighting, the renderer still gives you corrected FOV, potential for zoom, and potential for room-over-room. It's epic win for everyone.
Does that stuff still work if you disable polymer and use polymost?
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:36 PM   #535
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
Wouldn't it be just a matter off defining something like this in the def files?

dummytile 10000 10 10
texture 10000 { pal 0 { file "highres/textures/small_light_source_icon.png" } }

Definelightsource 10000
{
intensity 100
pal 0 { 100 (red intensity) 100 (blue intensity) 100 (green intensity) }
pal 1 { 0 100 0 }
Pal 8 { 0 0 100 }
}

( Or whatever the syntax is for dynamic lighting )
You seem to be missing the point. What makes maphacks such a pain in the ass is that you have to provide exact map coordinates and characteristics for each light. That means you open up mapster, find a spot where it looks like a light should be, write down the exact coordinates. Switch to the text editor, enter the coordinates. Try to guess how bright it should be, what color, etc., and enter those numbers as well. Now, you don't know what it's going to look like in game, so you have to fire up EDuke32, go to where the light is, and check it. Chances are, it needs adjustment, so you fiddle with the def some more. Repeat this for every single light in the map.
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:55 PM   #536
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Unless TX can pull a trick out of his sleeve regarding Mapster32 via a Polymer rendering edit mode, where you get a WYSIWYG mode in regards to lighting.
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Old 04-21-2009, 03:05 PM   #537
lycanox

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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Yes, but if you define a wide array of sprites that emit a certain type of light that can be placed in a user map. You can do a lot of work without switching constantly.
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Old 04-21-2009, 03:13 PM   #538
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
There are many similarities between Zero Hour and Duke3d. I personally believe it was probably built that way purposefully. The game uses many textures from Duke3D.
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Old 04-21-2009, 03:36 PM   #539
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by lycanox View Post
Yes, but if you define a wide array of sprites that emit a certain type of light that can be placed in a user map. You can do a lot of work without switching constantly.
I was trying to explain why it is so difficult using the current implementation. I guess I misunderstood your post, not realizing it was a suggestion about how to make things easier.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:10 PM   #540
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
I'm sorry if you've already been asked this alot, but when can we expect this renderer? Weeks, months? It's just that I'm having trouble waiting for this and DNF when I don't know the expected release dates of both.

I know you're trying to make it as bugless as possible, but a simple timeframe would be apreciated by me and perhaps others. I won't get too upset if you don't though.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:45 PM   #541
KaiHanshen
Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
I have a question regarding the limitations of the new Renderer: will it be able to support Voxels, as minimum, with a good Rendering?
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:51 PM   #542
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
nope.
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:25 PM   #543
moggimus

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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeperThought View Post
Using maphacks to place lights sucks big time, and I'll bet that gets remedied by release or shortly thereafter. I would not waste any time with maphacks myself.

Also, though I kind of dismissed the idea earlier, it would be possible to write CON script that takes a level and reinterprets it for polymer by adding dynamic lights based on shading, textures, and the sector based lighting effects in the map. The result will not be nearly as good as doing it by hand, but considering the large number of user maps and how much effort it would take to do them properly, an automated method would be welcome.
This idea gets a thumbs up from me. Like you said, a simple automated generator would be incredibly useful because who's going to go back and fix every map that's ever been released?
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:48 PM   #544
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parkar View Post
I don't recall seeing a single texture being reused from Duke 3D. And even if it did that's no indication of what engine is being used. Neither is the type of doors used.

Where do you get the impression it was incapable of doing room over room? As far as I can tell the Zero Hour game uses a "regular" polygon based graphics engine.

It also looks completely different then Duke 3D in pretty much every aspect from what I recall.
You don't recall a single texture being used??? You're kidding me... Did you even play the game Zero Hour??? There were plenty of textures re-used, the rubble, materials, buildings, grates, insides of buildings etc... plenty of them.

The only difference was that the game had polygon based enemies characters and 'some' polygon props... thats why I thought it was a 'modified' version of the build engine.

But it certainly didn't use room over room... because there were plenty of board walks and other suspended platforms built using sprites... waterworld is a good example of this.

Sorry man, but there were plenty of similarites to the Build Engine, it just looked a little (really little) bit more advanced.
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Old 04-21-2009, 08:30 PM   #545
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
I've never played it, but looking at screens, its immediately obvious that this is a polygon engine (real 3D), thus not the BUILD engine.

@ Moggimus - we need a decent way of placing lights as otherwise there is no point in having them. Parkar isn't going to spend the rest of his life placing lights in notepad. I for one will want to update my map. Hell, now that we have decent lights and (the promise of) high-res models, I'll probably make a few more.
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Old 04-21-2009, 08:41 PM   #546
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
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Originally Posted by Tea Monster View Post
I've never played it, but looking at screens, its immediately obvious that this is a polygon engine (real 3D), thus not the BUILD engine.
You havent played it. The only aspects of this game that are for certain "polygonal" are the models and props. A lot of the enviroment gives a very strong Build engine vibe when you go through it. It even makes uses of "teleporter drops" in a few spots.

Cant wait for this renderer.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:09 PM   #547
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
EDIT: Never mind.
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:56 PM   #548
KaiHanshen
Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwissCM View Post
nope.
That is meant to reply the Voxels question? if so, that sucks.
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:12 AM   #549
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeperThought View Post
You seem to be missing the point. What makes maphacks such a pain in the ass is that you have to provide exact map coordinates and characteristics for each light. That means you open up mapster, find a spot where it looks like a light should be, write down the exact coordinates. Switch to the text editor, enter the coordinates. Try to guess how bright it should be, what color, etc., and enter those numbers as well. Now, you don't know what it's going to look like in game, so you have to fire up EDuke32, go to where the light is, and check it. Chances are, it needs adjustment, so you fiddle with the def some more. Repeat this for every single light in the map.
Why are you guys doing it that way, wouldnt it just be easier to create a new sprite type thats a "light", and export the entity information to a seperate data file and instead of loading the sprite data from the .map load it from a external file?

Sorry this process just seems way over complicated to me : ), but the screenshots look nice.
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:25 AM   #550
Jokke_r

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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Well i'm not that into Duke3D modding but, couldn't new dynamic light "entities" be added into Mapster32 which you could place in build and edit their properties in build but they wouldn't be saved in any way into the existing map files, they would be exported to a maphack textfile instead. Would require some coding but i guess most of the functionality already exists in Mapster, like placing stuff etc. Mapster would have to differentiate between these entities and regular map stuff though, so when exporting, or saving the level these dynamic light entities are saved to a maphack file.

Afaik you can edit the original map files in mapster right? So what you'd do it load up the level, place these dynamic lights within mapster, export the lights into a maphack and load the game to check it out.

Edit, looks like IceColdDuke beat me to it.
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Old 04-22-2009, 03:02 AM   #551
DeeperThought

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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by IceColdDuke View Post
Why are you guys doing it that way.
I was making an educated guess as to what they are doing, I don't know it for a fact. I'm sure there will be a better way that comes along as development progresses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokke_r View Post
Well i'm not that into Duke3D modding but, couldn't new dynamic light "entities" be added into Mapster32 which you could place in build and edit their properties in build but they wouldn't be saved in any way into the existing map files, they would be exported to a maphack textfile instead.
That sounds like a good solution for the 3DR maps that aren't distributed with EDuke32. Actually, there is nothing wrong with saving the light sprites to the local copy of the map, as long as there is an option for creating the text file as well. In fact, it's important to be able to save map progress and then create the text file at the end of the process.
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:56 AM   #552
Tea Monster

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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Parkar stated that there will be a 'default' setting that will use sector lighting and try to best approximate the maps natural lighting. Maybe it would be a good thing for EDuke32 to check for a separate maphack file in the same directory as the game map when it starts a user level. This would mess up the HRP when playing because the maphacks are in a separate folder. But you could have it only check the same folder when loading a user map. I can see problems with this, but I'm just trying to establish something that modders and mappers can do reliably to get custom lighting into their maps.

What would be a great addition was if when Mapster 32 was loaded in 32bit mode, if you could write out a maphack. You could specify it for HRP so it would reposition any models and sprites that didn't match the original orientation. Or you could just click a checkbox that said something like "Lighthacks" that would dump out a text file with the positions of any light effectors you'd put in.
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:34 AM   #553
Parkar

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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokke_r View Post
Well i'm not that into Duke3D modding but, couldn't new dynamic light "entities" be added into Mapster32 which you could place in build and edit their properties in build but they wouldn't be saved in any way into the existing map files, they would be exported to a maphack textfile instead. Would require some coding but i guess most of the functionality already exists in Mapster, like placing stuff etc. Mapster would have to differentiate between these entities and regular map stuff though, so when exporting, or saving the level these dynamic light entities are saved to a maphack file.

Afaik you can edit the original map files in mapster right? So what you'd do it load up the level, place these dynamic lights within mapster, export the lights into a maphack and load the game to check it out.

Edit, looks like IceColdDuke beat me to it.
Yes, and I think this is more or less what is planned. The way I see it the light hacked lights should appear as a new type of entity in mapster32 and not as a sprite.

For mods and such you may want to create special sprites to make more advanced use of the lights but that's a different matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea Monster View Post
Parkar stated that there will be a 'default' setting that will use sector lighting and try to best approximate the maps natural lighting. Maybe it would be a good thing for EDuke32 to check for a separate maphack file in the same directory as the game map when it starts a user level. This would mess up the HRP when playing because the maphacks are in a separate folder. But you could have it only check the same folder when loading a user map. I can see problems with this, but I'm just trying to establish something that modders and mappers can do reliably to get custom lighting into their maps.

What would be a great addition was if when Mapster 32 was loaded in 32bit mode, if you could write out a maphack. You could specify it for HRP so it would reposition any models and sprites that didn't match the original orientation. Or you could just click a checkbox that said something like "Lighthacks" that would dump out a text file with the positions of any light effectors you'd put in.
I think you might have misunderstood me. Polymer will render sector lighting more or less exactly like Polymost. With the help of a map hack you will be able to override this.

In other words there are no compatibility issues with Polymer. If there are no dynamic lights defined it will look just like it used to. Dynamic lights only adds to the sector lighting.

Not sure what you mean by the map hacks but it sounds like it's exactly how map hacks works today. There is nothing stopping you from using map hacks in user levels. The current implementattion of lights by maphacks will work just fine for user maps as well as for the original maps. Everything is handled the same way.

---------- Post added at 02:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:13 PM ----------

I see only one issue with user maps and that is if you want to make a level that takes full advantage of both Polymer and classic mode. They way you would use sectors would be completely different. For Polymer you would only have ambient lighting in the sectors and no shadows etc. You would also think in a different way when it comes to splitting up the map into sectors due to how the max number of lights affecting a surface affects things. You probably don't want these huge sectors as they would tend to be in the radius of many lights and have a higher chance of flickering once you go beyond the max limit.
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:42 PM   #554
Chip

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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
So hang on, can any sprite be defined as a light source by the end user? or is it just the hard coded things and the "spotlight"?
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Old 04-22-2009, 02:15 PM   #555
DeeperThought

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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip View Post
So hang on, can any sprite be defined as a light source by the end user?
As I understand it, you will be able to do something like that using CON code. I'm not sure how it will work in the unmodded game.
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Old 04-22-2009, 04:12 PM   #556
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeperThought View Post
I was making an educated guess as to what they are doing, I don't know it for a fact. I'm sure there will be a better way that comes along as development progresses.
Stop making guesses your confusing the simple people on the forums .
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Old 04-22-2009, 04:44 PM   #557
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Regarding Mapster32 and Polymer, my suggestion would be as follows:

1) Have light shown in Mapster32 (don't know if the implementation is straightforward though)
2) Overload some effector (for example, CYCLER) for lighting stuff, so that when, say, extra>=0, it's interpreted as polymer lighting. Let the characteristics of the light (of which there are a lot!) be settable with the tags.
3) Of course, light defs by way of maphacks will be also there, but as DeeperThought pointed out, they're mostly useful for enhancing existing maps.
4) In order to do 3) conveniently, have a function in mapster that exports all current light defs to a .mhk file

So, basically the only new suggestion here is 2) because I think it would be better if mappers could place the lights directly into the map, without requiring any new sprite/whatever definitions or special "light entities".


@sajberkg:
I tried out your normal maps, but they're almost unnoticable even after "sharpening" (there's probably a better way to "deepen" them in terms of a transformation of the RGB values, but I was lazy.) Also, I think PNG's would be a better choice (they're 2/5th of the size of the TGA's for me).

I'd love to see them for lo-res textures though! One thing I noticed is that if you have a 1 pixel wide "slope", as in the texture #191, the renderer seems to interpolate the normal on the border in some way and the result looks wrong:

Upsampling the normal map by 2 without interpolation resolves the problem:


Oh.. Polymer looks very, very good in action
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Old 04-22-2009, 05:11 PM   #558
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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helixhorned View Post
So, basically the only new suggestion here is 2) because I think it would be better if mappers could place the lights directly into the map, without requiring any new sprite/whatever definitions or special "light entities".
The problem with this would be that the maps become incompatible with the original game. If you had a separate light entity that is written/read to/from a maphack file you would still have a Duke compatible map without the maphack file.

*I'm not too familiar with the Cycler, but I'm making the assumption that overloading something like this might give unwanted side effects in the original game
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Old 04-22-2009, 05:16 PM   #559
Parkar

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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rider View Post
The problem with this would be that the maps become incompatible with the original game. If you had a separate light entity that is written/read to/from a maphack file you would still have a Duke compatible map without the maphack file.

*I'm not too familiar with the Cycler, but I'm making the assumption that overloading something like this might give unwanted side effects in the original game
Exaclty, no need to make it sprite based. Better to make a completly new type of entity.
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Old 04-22-2009, 05:58 PM   #560
Daedolon

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Re: New EDuke32 renderer!
Why does everyone except me seem to have the Polymer coated EDuke32
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