Superman: Man of Steel

[KO Gilligan]

Originally Posted by X-Vector

Perhaps we should move away from the sucking and rephrase it to something more palatable, such as: "Superman always was the Wesley Crusher of superheroes".



"For truth, justice and the American way!"

[Pansa]

Originally Posted by KO Gilligan

I wonder how your time machine exists in such a vacuum that you can't easily acknowledge that whatever is missing from Black and White TV now was not missing at the time?

Actually, it was always missing, which is why we don't do it anymore. THis is called progress. (what specifically constitutes progress in contrast with decay is a matter of opinion). This will be easier to explain with the other examples, but the pacing would have been of for me aswell had I seen it back then. It's not the black and white media that have changed. What changed is the fact that cutting and shooting got cheaper, so that we can skip over filler scenes of "man walking down hallway for 3 minutes" when people knew exactly what the point was after 1.

I made it very clear that the context seemed to be a blanketing statement about the quality of the creation. Perhaps it was not. I'm inclined to believe that he didn't intend to hurt anyone's feelings, but I did not ignore anything. I am, however, a little unsettled about people on the internet throwing out adversarial statements and then buffing the inevitable response with "IMO".

I can understand that, because I have issues with that often aswell. But the problem is people argue that the "imho" is automatically implied, because the generalisation past the personal makes no sense, so that can't be the intend, so no need to clarify. People forget that they should make the distinction anyway, because there ARE people who make these kind of blanked statements and mean them.
It is a bit like using the indicator in a car.

Do you think, in your opinion, personally, that 8-track tapes always sucked?
Because they were horrible, absolutely horrible. The player ate the tape after first stretching and distorting the music, and it was a continuous loop design which makes you scratch your head about the engineering.

Yes. I would even go as far as calling certain steps in the development of progress "objectively bad". And think that in many cases bad products dominated the market although better solutions where available.

Funny thing is how awesome they were...how they changed the way we listened to our own personal music, and how they simply changed popular music nearly as much as any other single stage in the history of pop culture.

8-track tape players WERE awesome, and so WAS Superman. Just a couple FACTS in which I choose to acknowledge, and the very exact literal opposit of "Personally, IMO, they/he/it always sucked"

No, they sucked, but LOOKED awesome because they filled the market, pushing asside better solutions with the same benefits. The things you attribute to 8-track tapes is not inherent to them. While many of the downsides unarguably ARE.

Which is different from superman and B&W, because what "we" percieve as downsides now, where upsides for people back then. Some because they didn't know better, and some because needs were different.
There is nothing wrong with slow, or simplistic and predictable.
But it is entirely valid to argue that for us those qualities always sucked.

The problem is there is a valid distinction between pointing out that superman was like that from the beginning, instead of NOW being like that.
One is arguing a decay in quality, the other is questioning whether these qualities have been consistent, but unattractive.

and for the record, I'd much rather debate the apparent direction and costume style. I think I see some definite disagreement there as well.

Only thing I have to say about that is pointing at X-men.
"Would you rather prefer blue and yellow spandex".
They can't update the character without losing it, anachronistic as it may be, but at least he doesn't have to wear his underpants on the outside anymore.

[KO Gilligan]

In Star Trek Voyager Tom Paris created a recurring "Captain Proton" holodeck program. Definitely an homage to Flash Gordon and a golden age. There was a big clunky robot, and the control panels and electronic gizmos were really goofy. The holodeck converted everything to black and white to capture the feeling, the atmosphere. Perhaps this was the writer's somewhat pensive reflection on the original Star Trek series as well with it's chunky style and sparks and smoke.

None of the characters in the show could understand nostalgia very well. Most were oblivious to his viewpoint, and even mocked the technological evolution he held dear. He always had a deep appreciation for things that were created at a time when they were awesome. He loved old V8 classic automobiles, and there are more examples. Paris was one of the favorite characters in Star Trek universe, and his ability to very respectfully reflect on ancient creations as well as being the most well versed in propulsion technology was at the core of a remarkable personality.

But I think this issue speaks to that nostalgia directly.

Originally Posted by Pansa

There is nothing wrong with slow, or simplistic and predictable.
But it is entirely valid to argue that for us those qualities always sucked.

Perhaps in your opinion, but not for me. In certain company and context it is, of course, bad manners.

For me, arguing from that point of view is gruff, insensitive, and entirely unattractive.

[Damien_Azreal]

SO....

How about that movie thing that Christopher Nolan and Zack Snyder are making....

[KO Gilligan]

Which product(s) will be featured in the film? I'm thinking Clark Kent in a Ford Flex.

[Pansa]

Originally Posted by KO Gilligan

None of the characters in the show could understand nostalgia very well.

I understand nostalgia very well. But it need pointing out that nostalgia is a trait that requires enough self-analysis to be able to SPLIT nostalgia from objective critic. Nostalgia most often is a bias. Sure, that bias can be grounded in objective assertions, but equally nostalgia shrouds one from the fact that the old wasn't "good", but better in certain aspects that readily could have been kept in the new, but weren't.

This is why I readily argued that it's not actually B&W I dislike. It's certain prevalent aspects of filmmaking that are rooted in the B&W aera (and partially to be blamed on the state of tech and market at the time) that makes watching most B&W media excrutiating to me.

It is an important ability to be able to disect once nostalgia into these aspects. And to realise what specific components enter into it.

Perhaps in your opinion, but not for me. In certain company and context it is, of course, bad manners.

For me, arguing from that point of view is gruff, insensitive, and entirely unattractive.

Again, you are seriously not understanding the point being made.
Namely that whatever you think about it, Superman has been a rather preserved, constant character. Which I find always sucked. It's the DIRECT conclusion. If he is as he was, and I think he sucks now, he sucked then.
TO ME.

There was no argument that his qualities have to suck to you, too. There are two distinct thoughts in this. One is about what superman IS, and the other what we do or don't think about that.
Which is why keeping him alive as a property is such an issue. Increasingly his attributes become anachronistic (which still doesn't invalidate your nostalgia). And any move to modernise him will either result in him not being true to the character, or not being attractive to current consumers.

What you are somehow implying is that me having a constant opinion on a constant phenomenon is a bad thing. I don't have to change my current stance to accomodate different times.

People used to drink quicksilver for congestion. I understand why they did. I get why people thought it was a good idea. I am even compassionate about that. But that doesn't change the fact that I think it was a bad thing to do. My opinion is that drinking quicksilver was never a good thing.

[KO Gilligan]

....edited by KO Gilligan

[Pansa]

Originally Posted by KO Gilligan

The context was not "during my life the character sucked, to me" that position was actually appended.

It has nothing to do with anyones lifetime. Things CAN be concidered bad in hindsight! To concidere something bad in hindsight is not restricted to ones own lifetime. And it doesn't proclude leaving space for other peoples opinion.

Nostalgia doesn't define that things WERE good, nor that someone else has to be nostalgic about the same thing.

What you are implying is that I HAVE to think that superman was a better character back then, than he is now, although I don't like him now, and he hasn't changed.

Read my first response again... the Tom Paris anology fits perfectly. He actually had nearly this same discussions about his car. It was an important and iconic part of an evolution in transportation, and the era was unmatched.

Yes, and that area included a lot of details which I find grounded in missperceptions and a mindset that I personally do not like.
WHich is exactly what is important to understand about nostalgia. It's not an objective quality. It CAN be suplemented with objective reasons, but for the most parts those are shrouded in selective bias and active discarding of downsides.

And that includes things I am nostalgic about. I can try to explain WHY I am nostalgic about them, but I have to accept that this is a personal perspective and other people may not be able to relate, both from people who WERE there, aswell as people who weren't.
They might even communicate their ideas of why they disagree, and I will have to accept certain aspects that I like to forget/set aside about them.

This is not drinking Quicksilver,


it's Superman - the seed for Superheroes which came after - the first costume - loved by absolutely everyone - an iconic form of American ideology during World War II - and I could go on... He didn't "Always Suck"

LMAO

Yep - way different than always sucking...

No, it's not different from always sucking (to me)

When I hear people complain that "those were simpler times" , I hear "those were the times were we didn't have to care for details".
I still can appreciate WHY people think that way, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.
And what people liked/don't like doesn't have to change my opinion.
It is a complete reasonable position to say "I know why people thought he was great, but I disagree with that".

What you are trying to argue is that the downsides I percieve are invalid due to context. WHich is saying that quicksilver was a good thing back then because it relieved congestion and was part of the historic development of medicine.
Which isn't actually WRONG, but I am fully free to still point at the downsides and have an overall opinion differenting from the nostalgic perspective.

and go ahead and blabber along with your modern perspective in contempt of the things that got you here... you'll be just fine until you make your little "IMO - that was (lame)/(stupid)/(always sucked)" about something held in such high regard, in front of somebody that was there at the time - at which point you may get a lesson in manners.

I am not really sure why you keep bringing up manners, unless you are proposing that it is good manners to confuse differenting opinions on a topic with an attack on ones manlihood that needs retaliation.
Which to me is EXACTLY the kind black and white painting of issues that some people are nostalgic about.
My opinion on superman does not invalidate yours. But your opinion on the historical context does not mean I have to value attributes differently, just because they were held in higher regard.
And even less if it is through a heavy lens of nostalgia. (You are confusing this with disrespect for the opinion holder. The fact is that I am nostalgic about a lot of things aswell, and have to actively seperate subjective reasons that people might disagree with, without jumping down their throats aswell)

[KO Gilligan]

...

pointless bickering noted

Edited by KO

[Damien_Azreal]

Are we seriously still going back and forth on this?


Lets hope something for this film gets released soon so it can distract from this pointless bickering.

[KO Gilligan]

Originally Posted by Damien_Azreal

Are we seriously still going back and forth on this?


Lets hope something for this film gets released soon so it can distract from this pointless bickering.

But

But

You should love Superman

I edited some posts...
Sorry to go on about it.

[dan2091]

Man Of Steel - Trailer #2

Looks pretty neat.

Originally Posted by dan2091

Man Of Steel - Trailer #2

Looks pretty neat.

This trailer indicates that his might turn out to be the Superman film that I always wanted to see.

Not that I am particularly interested in the character (not generally anyway), there's just to few works in which I enjoyed him at all. Some incarnations of Superman I enjoy greatly, however.

Maybe this film could be one of them.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Originally Posted by dan2091

Man Of Steel - Trailer #2

Looks pretty neat.

The "Maybe" line from the trailer made me want to see the movie.

Finally a superman movie in which Superman/Kent isn't perfect.

[Kit]

Looks alright I guess. Still think casting Kevin Costner was a bad move.

[Damien_Azreal]

Costner is a good actor. He's made some bad calls, but... he's still a good actor.

[Kalki]

Good or bad, I don't want his character getting killed off. Had enough of that with the past movies & Smallville.

Trailer looks nice.

[Kit]

Watched the trailer again and it's better on a second viewing. Must have missed it first time around but Russell Crowe as Supermans dad seems like a good move.

Originally Posted by Damien_Azreal

Costner is a good actor. He's made some bad calls, but... he's still a good actor.

Just checked some of the shockers he's put out and I stand by not putting him in this. He's been nominated for 3 worst actor razzie's, 3!

I don't care how good he was in Field of Dreams that is shocking!

[KO Gilligan]

It might speak to the kind of Superman we're getting in the movie.

Maybe even deeper and darker than what I was thinking.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Originally Posted by Kalki

Good or bad, I don't want his character getting killed off. Had enough of that with the past movies & Smallville.

Trailer looks nice.

In the trailer superman says "my father believed". Which implies Kostner dies at some point.

[KO Gilligan]

Emoman confirmed \o/

Spoiler:

show spoiler

and he'll have a gadget car

[Kalki]

Originally Posted by Inanimate Carbon Rod

In the trailer superman says "my father believed". Which implies Kostner dies at some point.

Augh.

[X-Vector]

Originally Posted by KO Gilligan

Emoman confirmed \o/

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

New Trailer - probably the last one I will watch before seeing this movie in theaters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6DJc...ature=youtu.be

Originally Posted by Inanimate Carbon Rod

In the trailer superman says "my father believed".

And did the trailer suggest which one he meant?

[Kit]

All turned around on this. The score sounds good too.

[Kalki]

TV spot 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wnrse7H7kU

Ideally, I should take a leaf from ICR's book and stay away from future trailers.

[FullMetalJacket]

I'm normally not that interested in Superman...but this looks SO good.

[Kit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlOF03DUoWc

Holy christ of jesus!

Can it actually live up to that trailer!?

[dan2091]

I just saw this... and suddenly, 3 weeks are too far away.

[FullMetalJacket]

Originally Posted by Kit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlOF03DUoWc

Holy christ of jesus!

Can it actually live up to that trailer!?

Yeah, wow.

Just saw it at my local press screening. Go watch it when it's out!

It isn't perfect but really fun and very well executed.
Also, it's so absurdly spectacular that I wonder what the film-makers are going do to top themselves in the sequel.

I guess they'll have to blow up the Universe.

[Kalki]

Ha! Got my tickets for saturday.

[Damien_Azreal]

May go try to see this Saturday/Sunday with Bonnie.

[Kalki]

Watched it last night. Man of Steel was alright, a ton of great effects and spectacular battles but it could have used more warmth and character growth I guess. It's a bit hard pointing out the flaws because the movie had some lovely moments, yet I found myself bored at other times. It's not a bad movie by any means and some folks here could definitely enjoy all of it. Acting was good but I didn't empathize or engage with the movie as much as I wished. Had one minor canon-related issue regarding Superman's vulnerability, wonder how they'll proceed with that.

[Damien_Azreal]

That was something I actually liked about it. By giving him some vulnerability they made him more engaging.

Just got back from seeing it. I really liked it. There are a couple big action scenes towards the end that could've been edited down a bit, as they feel like they go on a bit too long. But... that's a small complaint.
The story is very well told, I really like how they bring in the characters and how the film flows. Not doing it how people expected. With the childhood bits all up front. How they did it was very nice.

Also, I like how they took the character of Kal El. The portrayal of him in this just feels like a more (even with him being an alien) human character.
I'm actually really interested to see where they take him in the next film. And, I'm actually excited to see it.

As someone who's never liked Superman (Yes, I really dislike the Christopher Reeve's films) and absolutely hated "Superman Returns"... I was very surprised by how much I liked this.
By actually taking away a lot of the invulnerable powers and crap... and giving him some depth. Actually making him look like he's struggling with his morality and even controlling himself... they made him a character that's more interesting.

Flying takes focus here, using the lasers from his eyes... looks like it hurts him. Everything together works so much better here.

[FullMetalJacket]

Finally saw it, and was absolutely blown away. I also thought there was a great deal of warmth and emotion to it, and I found the whole film thrilling and heartwarming at the same time. Once the credits rolled, I was just floored by what a great film it was, and I can't WAIT to see what comes next. Not since Casino Royale in 2006 has a movie excited me so much.

[crunchy superman]

Saw this today and I really enjoyed it. The action/destruction was way over the top, but I found myself thinking "finally!". A couple of Kryptonians going at it on Earth would cause such chaos and I felt it was something that's been missing from Superman on the big screen. Still several plot holes for the sake of convenience, but I can overlook them stacked up against all the awesome. Nice little nods at Lexcorp & Wayne Enterprises too.

[dan2091]

I really, really enjoyed it as well... It was very well cast and performed. Thought, I didn't like the zoom-in effect used on the camera. It was used a lot. Also, there was just one bit I got bored, don't know if it's the same Kalki tries to allude to.

But otherwise, I think of it as a superb movie. Hope they make moaarrr.... D:

[Kalki]

So the news of "the sequel" has rippled through mainstream media for days. My local newspaper had mentioned it on the front page and they don't talk about movies that way. So what do you guys think? Will it work? I am totally excited. Hope they don't mess it up.

Announcement videos:
http://youtu.be/m05YaiPnRHU / http://youtu.be/K-iGPHD1RBE

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...psddf8a562.jpg