Improvements to the FX engine?

[Claws]

- Improved facial animation.

- Realistic physics, accurate collision detection. (No goddamn clipping through walls)

- A new ground breaking feature that can replace Bullet Time. Bullet Time will not have the same "WOW" it did in MP1.

- Sharper textures... Sky boxes...

[Krursk]

Well bullet time needs enhancement. For example the slow mo finish could be replaced with a slow mo replay from several angles. Or have the "6000 miles to Graceland" style bullet collision in a cut scene. And the physics engine on bodies would rock, note that physics for bodies can also be added to map entities for realistic debris and items getting flung about.
Basically Max Payne 2 needs more style and finesse.

[SkavenRMD]

Well bullet time needs enhancement. For example the slow mo finish could be replaced with a slow mo replay from several angles. Or have the "6000 miles to Graceland" style bullet collision in a cut scene. And the physics engine on bodies would rock, note that physics for bodies can also be added to map entities for realistic debris and items getting flung about.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Basically Max Payne 2 needs more style and finesse.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is there an actual connection between these two paragraphs?

In my book, technical tricks != style and finesse.

[Cathome]

Originally posted by Claws:

- Realistic physics, accurate collision detection. (No goddamn clipping through walls)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I remember the latest case when deadly wounded Max slips down and his head appears in the next room.

[Krursk]

In my book, technical tricks != style and finesse.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well I will leave the style up to you guys, Hell max payne was so stylish its gonna be hard to top.

I expect the grafix will be upgraded quite a bit tho, with features such as BUMP MAPPING, or PROJECTED SHADOWS. And a cool physics engine ala hitman/UT2003.

Exactly!
Something like the Karma Physics engine in UT 2003 would be a huge enhancement to the feel of the game. Shooting an enemy and watching him spin like a top while his arms flailed and dangled before he slumped to the ground in a heap would add soooo much more to the fight sequences.

There was another mod for another game that I played a year or so ago that had it set so that if you hit someone in the head with a Desert Eagle they would do a back Flip and land face down and as unrealistic as that was it was the coolest damn thing I ever saw!

Also one of the best parts about MP was the realistic textures, the game inspite of it's low poly environments looked awesome.
So higher definition geometry and dynamic lighting effects would add so much more to an already impressive set of graphics.

I agree with the people who have said that bullet time will need some sprucing up, more moves during bullet time would solve that problem for me, something like the wall jump in the Kung-fu mod or a dive and roll so that Max is back on his feet at the end of the animation.

I also liked the ideas people had about shootiung around corners and leaning against walls, kicking over tables for cover rocked in RTCW.

[Mongorian]

agreed! imagine if they applied actual physics to everything in the game. tables, chairs, soda pop cans, and even to the debris that flies about.
i think it has definite potential in a max payne game [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[SkavenRMD]

Anything more fresh and less obvious out there? I mean, just repeating stuff you've seen in other titles isn't taking this conversation anywhere, is it.

Yeah, I'm sure Game X would be really cool if it had the cool features seen in games Y, Z, Å, Ä and Ö crammed into it, but in fact they would just make Game X more similar to those other titles, rather than making it stand apart. Not to mention that it would bloat the development workload out of proportion. (That's why DNF is taking so long, isn't it? They've been listening to you guys for too long) [img]graemlins/tinyted.gif[/img]

How about some ideas that would be unique to Max Payne? Those are the ones we're trying to come up with ourselves (while also trying to implement as many cool new "obvious" gimmicks as we humanly can). If anyone here comes up with something like that, we'll gladly (and ruthlessly) exploit it. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

BTW, how many of you have noticed - or complained - that Hitman 2 no longer has skin decals (=bullet holes on bodies)? How many percent does that reduce the game's fun factor in your opinion? I'm curious.

[Clint R.]

the hitman 2 engine is GREAT, accept for the decals on bodies [img]images/icons/frown.gif[/img] , but MP2 could use some things of the H2 engine.... like ehh, shadows, plant and stuff gliding against characters.... and much more....

the Mafia engine is GREAT to.... MP2 could use a lot of that one to, like the animations they look real good, damage to cars could be used -> MAX beating up things whit an bat...

And what really would be cool r silencers for guns, flash bangs, smoke bombs, knifes, bottles to knock out enemys....

AND MUCH MORE.... LOL

[Maddieman]

that Hitman 2 no longer has skin decals (=bullet holes on bodies)? How many percent does that reduce the game's fun factor in your opinion? I'm curious.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've only just started playing the first hitman game, and I though it was quite a decent feature with the cartoon-like style of the graphics; it's hard to judge how well it would convert to a photo-realistic(ish) game like Max Payne. Perhaps if the decals were randomised a bit, it would have added a bit more variety. Also, animated decals might work - to make them look like they were bleeding.

How about some ideas that would be unique to Max Payne?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here are the ideas I could remember:

Would dynamic decals be too impossible to implement? What I mean by this made up buzz word, is that instead of using bumped sprites, set it so that projectiles actually alter or destroy the level geometry. Not too much - just enough to look like proper 3d bullet holes (or impact damage).

Also, would it be possible to make more solid looking particles? Make some of the debris effects look more 3d. Some are good, the fire worked well; but things like the fire hydrant foam looked out of context.

Maybe this is covered under karma physics, but the ability to apply weight values to objects (bones/projectiles) might prove useful. As well as projectiles, would it be possible to make bones cause damage too? You could use the weight and the speed of the bone's movement to determine how much damage is caused. Primarily this would be for improved hit detection in close quarters combat (so that the actual fist/weapon does damage, rather than an invisible projectile form the neck).

Unique animations - A mix between animation, and randomization (read: complex physics calculation). Instead of one single animation for everything (e.g. the running animation), make four similar ones, and let the engine blend between them (while taking physics data into account as well); so that you produce realistic, unique animations.

Also, more control over projectiles and level items.

For example, useful controls would be to accelerate and decelerate projectiles. As well as their obvious use, you could combine the acceleration values with the weight values to cause more realistic gethit/impact animations.

Another useful thing would be messages for changing a projectile's direction mid flight.

Perhaps this is covered in the explosion message, but a size or radius for the projectile hit-detection would be handy, too.

Other things might include how durable a projectile is, can it go through walls, doors, or characters, etc.

Is it possible to attach a 3d sound to a (moving) projectile? I tried, but I'm not 100% sure if it worked correctly. Either way, if it isn't in there, it should be.

Orbiting projectiles? Attach it to a bone, and watch it spin around them.

One last thing, how about being able to aim projectiles at specific bones? Not sure how it would work, but maybe you get the idea.

As for level items, I'd personally like to see the enemies pick them up too. If you did that, there should be a parameter for controlling who can pick it up (i.e.: max, enemy, all).

I think I've said this before, but high up on my list would be the ability to define new animations and activate them with fsm messages. What is also essential is being able to reference to the player receiver, or an enemy receiver from another script (i.e. not using the this receiver). Perhaps, in the projectile scripts you could use something along the lines of target receiver or something.

Other, non-specific things include: separate time controls for max (so you could have effects which affect everything except Max); motion blur; and some other stuff which I've forgotten.

Well, that's all I could think of for today... [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

we'll gladly (and ruthlessly) exploit it.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[img]images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

[ 10-19-2002, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[SkavenRMD]

Whoa, that's quite a list you've got there. Programming is a lot of work, as we all know. Implementing all you list above would extend the game project by a couple of years, at least due to a few particularly difficult ones you mention there. As I said earlier, this is exactly why DNF is taking so long to make.

Also, I'm sorry, but pretty much none of these are the kind of ideas I meant by "unique to Max Payne". Believe it or not, these are mostly technical "eye candy" features that have already been considered, pondered, suggested and discussed by numerous gamers and game developers all over the world. The reason they're not yet in many games is most often the fact they're just not yet plausible when you compare the amount of work to the gameplay benefits they would bring. Not because the developers just didn't come to think of them.

Glad to see we're on the same tracks though. You definitely have a game developer's mindset.

This applies both ways. We do think (and have thought) about these things a lot, and many others as well. For example, I recently made a small suggestion we could make the camera shake effect distance dependent. So that if a grenade explodes far away, it would shake the screen less. It was, like all other suggestions, put into the list of things to consider, and may or may not end up in the final game.

Let's go through these. Please note that these comments do not imply in any form whatsoever whether or not such features are or will be in Max Payne 2. We will implement whatever suits our work schedule and gameplay requirements best.

I've only just started playing the first hitman game, and I though it was quite a decent feature with the cartoon-like style of the graphics; it's hard to judge how well it would convert to a photo-realistic(ish) game like Max Payne.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps they removed it because a guy with a bullet hole in his head shooting back at you looked stupid. That, or headshots would always be lethal, and the enemies would never actually hit the hero's head (since instant deaths are annoying). Or that the hero would get bullet holes on his body, but not on his head. Or that they would disappear when he picks up a health item. Or not.

As you see, they tend to make things a bit complex. If the game was first person, the above would not really be such a problem.

Perhaps if the decals were randomised a bit, it would have added a bit more variety.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They are already randomised by rotation and mirroring, but I see where you're getting at. It would be reasonably easy to use, for example, a 2x2 set of textures instead of one texture for the decals, and randomize between them.

Also, animated decals might work - to make them look like they were bleeding.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It might also make your CPU and texture memory look like it's bleeding. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

The decals in Max Payne 1 are not individual meshes once they're created - they're actually merged into a single mesh to take advantage of hardware T&L. One of the reasons they couldn't be animated, nor removed one by one.

The blob shadow under Max Payne is actually an "animated decal", since it rotates, moves and scales and is constantly projected onto the surface underneath. It also uses way more CPU than a normal "slap and forget" decal.

Would dynamic decals be too impossible to implement? What I mean by this made up buzz word, is that instead of using bumped sprites, set it so that projectiles actually alter or destroy the level geometry. Not too much - just enough to look like proper 3d bullet holes (or impact damage).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How would you alter the level geometry "not too much"? Level geometry consists of mostly large polygons. Putting even a single small bullet hole in the wall with a Boolean operation causes lots of tesselation, not to mention a whole bunch of holes. That's why GeoMod is used for large chunks of geometry but not for bullet holes.

I once suggested using concave geometry with a higher Z buffer bias, so you could plant a cup-like "dent" on the wall which would be behind the wall polygon, but still drawn on top of it thanks to the bias, but this would cause serious Z-fighting (=flickering) problems when viewing at shallow angles. Plus, due to backface culling, the near edge of the hole does not cover the far side of it, making it look pretty screwed. What a doomed idea that was.

Crisis Zone style pre-tesselated (and pre-fragmented) geometry could be cool, but it would have to be limited to small areas since in a larger room the number of fragments would go out of control. In Crisis Zone this is easy to control, since the player does not move freely around the environment. Even then I bet it was a real development nightmare to implement.

Pre-tiled geometry destructable tile by tile, as seen in PS1 Die Hard Trilogy Part 2 could also be cool, but the tiling itself would pose some interesting limitations to the level geometry, and be a level designer's nightmare. As seen in that particular game.

Also, would it be possible to make more solid looking particles? Make some of the debris effects look more 3d. Some are good, the fire worked well; but things like the fire hydrant foam looked out of context.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's more a matter of the bitmaps used than particle technology. You probably know this but just in case: the key difference between particles and projectiles, besides the fact particles are "sprites" (=billboards) and projectiles are 3D objects, is the fact that only projectiles collide with the environment. Collision detection uses a lot more CPU. This is why using particles for most debris effects is preferred over projectiles.

When making Max Payne 1, I asked the coders if we could, for example, make the shards of tile that fall from the tiled walls when shot to be actually projectiles so that they would remain on the ground (or create a "bits of tile" debris decal on the floor below), but they said no.

I've also suggested (=hoarsely begged) if ParticleFX could be used to combine 3D mesh effects with 2D billboards, but they just shake their heads with an "I pity your clueless carcass" smile on their faces.

We tried using 3D "pieces of wood" projectiles as debris when breaking crates, but the idea didn't work due to a bunch of reasons.

Maybe this is covered under karma physics, but the ability to apply weight values to objects (bones/projectiles) might prove useful. As well as projectiles, would it be possible to make bones cause damage too? You could use the weight and the speed of the bone's movement to determine how much damage is caused. Primarily this would be for improved hit detection in close quarters combat (so that the actual fist/weapon does damage, rather than an invisible projectile form the neck).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sounds more like beat-em-up than shoot-em-up stuff. Alas, for a game like Max Payne it's not plausible. Die By The Sword used a system akin to this. It would not only make the system unpredictable, but also very difficult to balance.

As a weird comparison, imagine a chess game where the attack/defense values of the pieces would depend on how they are placed and rotated within each square. It would make the game too complex for its purposes.

Unique animations - A mix between animation, and randomization (read: complex physics calculation). Instead of one single animation for everything (e.g. the running animation), make four similar ones, and let the engine blend between them (while taking physics data into account as well); so that you produce realistic, unique animations.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Among other things, David Braben is experimenting with this with his A Dog's Tale game/demonstration. Not only this, the system also individually animates different parts of the body and has IK for the legs. Wow.

This is another interesting area that not many programmers are actually willing to explore, because 3rd person games in general are already a character animation management nightmare even without such a system.

Also, more control over projectiles and level items.

For example, useful controls would be to accelerate and decelerate projectiles. As well as their obvious use, you could combine the acceleration values with the weight values to cause more realistic gethit/impact animations.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As in Hitman and more recently, UT2k3? Hmm.

Another useful thing would be messages for changing a projectile's direction mid flight.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, um, where and how would these exactly be useful?

Perhaps this is covered in the explosion message, but a size or radius for the projectile hit-detection would be handy, too.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For collision and CPU usage reasons, the collision detection radius of all projectiles was locked down to a certain value in Max Payne 1 (they all have a certain, very small spherical radius), because it was fastest to calculate. Don't ask. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Other things might include how durable a projectile is, can it go through walls, doors, or characters, etc.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This would also introduce a level design / game balancing nightmare, I'm afraid.

For a teeth-grittingly realistic game like Rainbow Six this would be more plausible. That game lacked other eye candy features because they focused their efforts on realism.

Is it possible to attach a 3d sound to a (moving) projectile? I tried, but I'm not 100% sure if it worked correctly. Either way, if it isn't in there, it should be.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is possible already, but the values are not interpolated from frame to frame, so if the projectile moves very fast, you won't get a "zing" effect. Consult DirectSound for the reasons behind this.

For slower-moving projectiles (arrows, etc) this might work better. Listen to the tank shells in Battlefield 1942. Oh wow...

Orbiting projectiles? Attach it to a bone, and watch it spin around them.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And this would be useful in what way..? (besides being "neat")

One last thing, how about being able to aim projectiles at specific bones? Not sure how it would work, but maybe you get the idea.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The auto-aim in Max Payne 1 already does this - the projectile is aimed towards either the character's collision capsule or its chest bone. However, this feature is hard-coded and not accessible thru messages.

Implementing message control for any game feature is always a much larger job than hard-coding it, so implementing it must always be carefully considered gameplay benefit wise. For projectile aiming in Max Payne 1, hard-coding was the most plausible option.

As for level items, I'd personally like to see the enemies pick them up too. If you did that, there should be a parameter for controlling who can pick it up (i.e.: max, enemy, all).

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In Max Payne 1, after some consideration it was concluded that it is very annoying if enemies pick up and waste your guns or health bonuses, and besides those, what would there be left to pick up? Such events could already be scripted, but it was rarely used (if at all).

I think I've said this before, but high up on my list would be the ability to define new animations and activate them with fsm messages. [......] Other, non-specific things include: separate time controls for max (so you could have effects which affect everything except Max); motion blur; and some other stuff which I've forgotten.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These sound plausible. Except for the motion blur (can get pretty heavy, at least GTA3 was insanely slow on my system when the motion blur was on) and "some other stuff". There's no way we could do that. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> we'll gladly (and ruthlessly) exploit it.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[img]images/icons/frown.gif[/img] </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why the long face? Surely you've read the rules of this forum. *evil corporate cackle* [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Realistically put, in this kind of a forum, there's no way to prove or find out whether an idea implemented in the game has been come up with by the developers, you, or 200 000 other people who have came up with the same idea. Frankly, it doesn't even matter. Did you look at the credits in Max Payne 1? They didn't credit anyone for coming up with ideas. It's the implementation that counts.

[Daedalus]

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it possible to attach a 3d sound to a (moving) projectile? I tried, but I'm not 100% sure if it worked correctly. Either way, if it isn't in there, it should be.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is possible already, but the values are not interpolated from frame to frame, so if the projectile moves very fast, you won't get a "zing" effect. Consult DirectSound for the reasons behind this.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First off, which "values" do you mean?! And what is that "zing" effect, a sound which makes "ziiiiiing" or what?! I never heard a bullet sound "ziiiing" or s.th. Which kind of bullet is that?

Second, it's very easy to implement reasonable sounds to moving projectiles. All you need to do is to combine the FrequencyScaling = TRUE; function (already implemented in Max Payne 1 [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] ) with the speed value of a moving projectile. When the projectile has a speed of 22050 units (I call it "units" here, it could also be pixels, bits or whatever kind of measurement works best in game) then the sound is splayed at a pitch of 22050 Hz. When the projectile goes very fast and has a speed of 44100 units then the sound is played at 44100 Hz. The speed values of projectiles could range from 4000 (=extremely slow) to 44100 (=extremly fast) units.

Simple like that. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

You can even advance this technique and add volume slide and reverb values to it. When a projectile is approaching the player from a very far distance then it is hardly heard, but gets louder and louder the smaller the distance between projectile and player. This applies for the other way, too. When a projectile, fired by the player, flies away then the volume of the sound gets lower and lower. And reverb of projectile sounds is used when the level designer has set a reverb zone flag and a reverb length value inside the brush properties of a room or group of rooms.

[ 10-20-2002, 05:51 AM: Message edited by: Daedalus ]

[SirSushi]

-player acceleration
if you start running you slowly accelerate (not too slowly) instead of going at full speed instantly and when you change directions (strafe left, then strafe right) the player does a braking movement before accelerating into the other direction (kinda like super mario 64)

in combination with proper ground collision detection you could get rid of that "skating/hovering over the ground" feel that you find in most 3d-action games

of course all the accelerating/braking/turning (if possible to implement) could screw the gameplay, but max still has his dodging moves to counter that.
(being able to do a roll after dodging to keep max moving would be interesting too)

[Maddieman]

First off, thanks for such a detailed response, Skaven. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

I understand that the majority of my suggestions are impractical and/or time/money consuming - I was deliberately going for ideas over plausibility since, after all, impossibilities shouldn't be ruled out on face value. Perhaps in the years to come, it will become easier to implement these types of things. I assume that at this stage of development the majority of ideas will have been finalised by now - so that you can start to integrate them into all aspects of the game.

I also realised that, after finishing, that they were more aimed at technical features rather than unique ideas or gameplay features (e.g. karma physics, bullet time, gibbing, stealth, etc). Max Payne's unique selling point is bullettime and explosive firefights - therefore that would be the obvious thing to focus on. What could be done to make bullettime more interesting, or the shooting more exciting/fun? I believe there is already a thread for that.

My suggestions were more aimed at what I'd like to see in the engine, after experimenting with it for several months. The majority of ideas were inspired by things I've already tried (and failed) to do. My projectile ideas, for example, might not have any immediately obvious use; but it's about making the engine more flexible.

Sure, it's easy enough to get a feature working in the source code ( [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] ), as required by the game. But someone, somewhere down the line might want to take the engine and produce something amazing with it, using it in ways that were never conceived or intended - look what Ken Yeung did with level items, for example.

You made quite a few references to other games/projects which I plan read up on, some time. That animation program (with the dogs) was particularly interesting (although I managed to break one of the dog's legs by quickly switching from a flat to a bumped surface [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] ); would it put too much of a strain on the CPU to implement in a proper game, though? In the mean time, I noticed that you can set multiple sound files for one sound effect definition (allowing the engine to randomly choose a sound). Would this be possible for animation blocks, as well?

"some other stuff". There's no way we could do that [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Max Payne 2, featuring some-other-stuff gameplay - A first in gaming." [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

As for idea copyright, I was kidding - it doesn't concern me. Remedy and 3D Realms appear to be honest companies, who are committed to making their games as good as they possibly can. Many people have claimed that Max Payne is a one-trick pony, or that Max Payne 2 will be no more than a cash-in on the first one's success, but I genuinely doubt that.

Thanks again, and keep up the good work.

[ 10-20-2002, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[MikaRMD]

I've also suggested (=hoarsely begged) if ParticleFX could be used to combine 3D mesh effects with 2D billboards, but they just shake their heads with an "I pity your clueless carcass" smile on their faces.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ohhh...my stomach hurts... [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[Krursk]

Well Ive done a feature wish list its time for a gameplay wishlist.

1.What about having bullets being able to colide with each other? I cant name a game where the actual bullets them selves can hit each other and deflect.

2.Enemies that can smell you.

3. If you use bullet time while standing still max will automaticaly dodge incoming bullets.

4. Randomised personalities/AI for enemy goons, ie. gun ho type goons, cautious ones, downright cowards etc, but randomised to give the game some unpredictability.

How about more sneak and an option for limited hightened senses.
For instance Max can creep up a wall to a door and use an option that would allow him to filter out ambient noise and pick up on breathing in the next room. Would work great with 5.1
With the addition of an option like that different approaches could be implemented, a different and harder to find air shaft that Max could climb into and sneak around behind the enemy or bypass them all together.
It could also feature a slight zoom effect on vision

The ability to climb walls and enter buildings through windows, i.e. Max shimmy's up a drain pipe and swings over onto a balcony that was previously inacessable.
The ability to jump and grab hold of something would fit right in with that and allthough it's kind of Tomb Raider-esque ya gotta admit it was kinda cool.

Silent kills, like neck snappin, pistol whippin, silenced weapons or throat cutting. [img]graemlins/love.gif[/img]

Using the environment to your advantage, kick a bookshelf over and it lands on a guy or just jump and kick of a wall to dodge sideways or reach a high place allah Jackie Chan.

Zip lines where one hand with an uzi is free to shoot.

Use another body as armor.

Belly crawling for added stealth when needed or desired.

The ability to trip an enemy or distract him in some way while you take on another. Maybe kick the gun out of his hand.

[SkavenRMD]

Maddieman;

I understand that the majority of my suggestions are impractical and/or time/money consuming - I was deliberately going for ideas over plausibility since, after all, impossibilities shouldn't be ruled out on face value.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They aren't. They're just added to a list of low priority things to do, then forgotten about. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Max Payne's unique selling point is bullettime and explosive firefights - therefore that would be the obvious thing to focus on. What could be done to make bullettime more interesting, or the shooting more exciting/fun? I believe there is already a thread for that.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And no doubt, we're racking our brains over it the best we can over here.

My projectile ideas, for example, might not have any immediately obvious use; but it's about making the engine more flexible.
Sure, it's easy enough to get a feature working in the source code ( ), as required by the game. But someone, somewhere down the line might want to take the engine and produce something amazing with it, using it in ways that were never conceived or intended - look what Ken Yeung did with level items, for example.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that's one problem... our situation is quite the opposite to the Half-Life team. I read an article in Game Developer about it; the programmers had implemented a big bunch of cool effects and features but none of the level designers actually used them!

Our team, on the other hand, won't implement absolutely anything unless it's clear it will have considerable benefit gameplay, development or fun factor wise. And even then, only if the higher priority things give time for it. And even then, it's done the "technically easiest" way, usually hard-coded, which leaves little room for any other uses, and even the allowed use is strictly Spartan. Am I starting to sound bitter? I'm sure there are good reasons behind this.

That animation program (with the dogs) was particularly interesting; would it put too much of a strain on the CPU to implement in a proper game, though?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually I haven't checked how much CPU the system uses, but I'd figure it could be used at least for the main/major characters in the game.

I wonder how much programming effort Braben had to spend in creating that system. It may explain why such things are still rarely seen in games.

In the mean time, I noticed that you can set multiple sound files for one sound effect definition (allowing the engine to randomly choose a sound). Would this be possible for animation blocks, as well?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Certainly; all assets could be made randomizeable, but this has to be specifically implemented for each one. Multiple random variations of each item can also become a memory issue. The randomization was most critical for the sounds, as repetition in sound is very easy to notice.

Many people have claimed that Max Payne is a one-trick pony, or that Max Payne 2 will be no more than a cash-in on the first one's success, but I genuinely doubt that.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is, but only partly. [img]graemlins/hhg.gif[/img]

Thanks again, and keep up the good work.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Du bist wilkommen (bad German alert!), and we will. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[SkavenRMD]

Daedalus;

DirectSound 3D sounds already have a Falloff value, that is, they are the quieter, the farther away they are. There's no need to implement a separate volume slide.

The problem is just that the sound's volume and 3D position/panning value is not interpolated from frame to frame. So if the projectile travels extremely fast (like a bullet), you won't hear a smooth, panned "zing" as it goes by; you'll hear the sound jump from place to place. This is not a problem with slow-moving projectiles.

Second, it's very easy to implement reasonable sounds to moving projectiles. All you need to do is to combine the FrequencyScaling = TRUE; function (already implemented in Max Payne 1 ) with the speed value of a moving projectile.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[img]graemlins/doh.gif[/img] It doesn't work that way.

Well, DirectX also has a Doppler effect feature, but that's a different story.

What you suggest is something completely different. Imagine holding a tennis ball that lets out a looping beep. Then drop it. The sound goes from low 'boop' to high 'beep' until the ball hits the ground, then it goes down to 'boop' again, and up and down as the ball bounces.

This could perhaps be useful for games where the projectiles change their speed drastically due to air resistance or such, but not for Max Payne.

Krursk;

1.What about having bullets being able to colide with each other? I cant name a game where the actual bullets them selves can hit each other and deflect.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Er.. what are the actual odds of that? But then, in action movies (especially Hong Kong ones) things do tend to happen against all odds...

2.Enemies that can smell you.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And then what? Offer you a breath mint? [img]graemlins/dopefish.gif[/img]

[The Baskinator]

And then what? Offer you a breath mint?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*giggling* [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Not to offend Max, but I doubt they would be smelling his breath alone. I mean, I don't think he showered at all during his killing spree in the first game. If such is the case, I can't even imagine the overwhelming funk that must have accompanied him.

[Krursk]

Can you imagine it. You cruise around and you hear 2 goons talking as you hide behind a crate.

"So I was saying... *sniff* whats that smell?! ...ITS PAYNE!"

But the smelling thing was actualy a little reference to the PS2s supposed capabilities, including "such advanced AI that would alow enemies to not only see and hear you, but to smell you as well." I was hinting at better AI in a semi-humourous way.

[biXen]

LMAO, smell you...

And it IS a pain to be under the thumb of programmers, dismissing every great idea. Or the infamous "We can't do that yet" or "That one will come later". Or even "don't do that now, it doesn't work yet" [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[SirSushi]

what about cloth physics? [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[RollingBrass]

*GASP!* Me too! We can be brothers! \o/

Seriously though....I don't give a fllying florp what the frig you do to the engine, as long as you make the game fun, and break up the action with some interesting stuff (like you did with the dream sequences). I myself play games, not engines. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Oh, and I'm still waiting for a "What about moving?!" Easter Egg. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Ken_Y]

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
Absolutely not. I love to hand animate the jacket bones for every $"@!!£"# animation.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. There's just no better way to spend your free time then hand animating the jacket movement for every little animation. If only we had bones to hand animate flowing hair, ribbons and shoelaces, then all my dreams would be fulfilled [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Now time to get back to my jacket animating...

[SkavenRMD]

Absolutely not. I love to hand animate the jacket bones for every $"@!!£"# animation.

[Bushido]

Wow! If jacket animating is THIS fun why not hand animate everything!

Ok, ok, just go with me on this. Why not scrap your current engine and hand animate the ENTIRE 3D world. It'll probably save you time in the long run . Also, what could be more fun than spending 16 hour days making every tree leaf flow right?

..I think you'll agree that it's a shame I didn't get into this whole game development scene. I'd be a programmers BEST friend!

...what? [img]images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

[Maddieman]

I was going to bring this up in my original post (until I forgot [img]graemlins/doh.gif[/img] ), but since the topic has convieniently moved to it anyway - I quite impressed with the cloth animation in Hitman (except for the pop-up). I know it's nothing orignal, but it could be quite suitable in Max Payne. With a clever use of alpha textures and decals, would it be possible to make bullet holes in the material? That would be...uh...neat....damn....

[SkavenRMD]

Bushido;

Why not scrap your current engine and hand animate the ENTIRE 3D world.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In fact, Max Payne 1 is entirely hand animated. The keyframes for all the dynamic objects have to be done manually. All character animations were hand made.

Okay, well, um, particle motions are actually generated by the computer (based on hand-made parameters), and the AI automatically chooses from a set of hand-animated character animations, but you get the idea. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Maddieman;

I'm quite impressed with the cloth animation in Hitman (except for the pop-up). I know it's nothing orignal, but it could be quite suitable in Max Payne.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have high hopes on this one, since it would make my job a lot easier as well (no need to animate the !@#&% jacket any more), but it took three weeks for the strangle marks to disappear the last time I tossed this at the coders. [img]graemlins/dopefish.gif[/img]

With a clever use of alpha textures and decals, would it be possible to make bullet holes in the material? That would be...uh...neat....damn....

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bullet Holes You Can Actually See Through?™ Boy, have I heard that one before. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Unfortunately, DirectX and progressive textures don't mix very well (they cause slowdown each time the texture is updated). And it would also require a bit-more-complex-than-average texture memory allocation system, as every piece of cloth in the scene would need to have their own alpha texture (to avoid the bullte holes in one cloth magically appear in all other cloths as well). And since you cannot separate the alpha map and the color map in the texture memory in most 3D hardware, a duplicate of each cloth texture (with alpha) would have to be allocated in the memory as well, not just the alphas. This would pose some memory limitations. The alpha map and the color map must also be the same resolution, so you cannot save memory by using a low res alpha map with a high res texture; the cloth texture would also have to be low res. You can avoid blurry edges in the alpha by using the other alpha blend mode (not sure what it's called but it gives sharp outlines at the blend threshold), but there would be some sorting/overlap problems still.

Let's say someone implements this feature after all. What will they get? Some HC gamer shooting a curtain for 15 minutes until he's managed to saw the curtain in half with bullet holes. He would then notice that the severed piece of curtain is still hanging in the air. He goes to the discussion forums to write "OMG WTF LOL teh clof hangs in teh air! Teh gaem sux asssssss!!!!111 idiot devalopurs didnt taek thsi into acount!!!!!11". [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Lots of Holy Grails out there. Currently only one of them can be present at any one game at a time (GeoMod, ragdoll, GHOUL), because implementing them takes so much time and effort. I don't see more of them appearing in one game simultaneously in the near future. Maybe some future titles will contain two Holy Grails instead of one. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Krursk]

Lots of Holy Grails out there. Currently only one of them can be present at any one game at a time (GeoMod, ragdoll, GHOUL), because implementing them takes so much time and effort. I don't see more of them appearing in one game simultaneously in the near future. Maybe some future titles will contain two Holy Grails instead of one.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">... DNF

But out of these holy grails the only thing needed in max payne 2 is the 'ragdoll' one. hell max payne one was a holy grail in itself but if any one should be added it should be ragdoll. And imagine how much easier it would be for you, never have to make a death animation again, heh. So when you think about it it would actualy save time in max paynes development. Of course bodies would need to have decent weight variables otherwise you end up with hitman flying corpses and not hitman 2 or UT2003 realistic ones.

[SkavenRMD]

Actually I would still have to do the animations (or import motion capture, or whatever), because relying on ragdoll alone looks rather limp.

Ragdoll works best when combined with death animations, which then switch to ragdoll after a while. Like they've done in Halo.

[biXen]

Yeah, sometimes in Hitman it feels like you are fighting muppets...

[Krursk]

Well in any case Ragdoll should be made a standard in all action games including max payne 2. And from what I understand the technology is relativly easy to implement. Altho I could and probably are wrong about that.

[MikaRMD]

Originally posted by Krursk:
Well in any case Ragdoll should be made a standard in all action games including max payne 2. And from what I understand the technology is relativly easy to implement. Altho I could and probably are wrong about that.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you sure you are not working for a company selling the technology and cleverly disguising yourself as a forum regular??? [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[Maddieman]

imagine how much easier it would be for you, never have to make a death animation again

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excuse me, but I happen to enjoy making death animations. They're one of the most satisfying ones to get working. Then again, you haven't seen the explosion animation I've made for k2.....

[Krursk]

Are you sure you are not working for a company selling the technology and cleverly disguising yourself as a forum regular???

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">well for 3 easy payments of $39.95...

Heh nope, I just think its a very cool feature and it looks a little cheap when you see a body with its legs in a wall while levitating over a gap.

[biXen]

The ultimate is still animation first then taken over by a limited ragdoll effect. Animations look much more movielike when they are handmade IMO. Reality is too boring [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

It isn't really a suggestion on the fx engine, but improving Rasmaker would be good.

Why not improve it so that you can 'close' your package. This would be for people who don't want to have their mod contents ripped.

[Krursk]

It isn't really a suggestion on the fx engine, but improving Rasmaker would be good.

Why not improve it so that you can 'close' your package. This would be for people who don't want to have their mod contents ripped.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1. If people want to rip from you they will just crack through any protection you put on it.

2. Why slow/stop other mods and limit the information pool?

[Maddieman]

Originally posted by Krursk:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It isn't really a suggestion on the fx engine, but improving Rasmaker would be good.

Why not improve it so that you can 'close' your package. This would be for people who don't want to have their mod contents ripped.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1. If people want to rip from you they will just crack through any protection you put on it.

2. Why slow/stop other mods and limit the information pool?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I haven't seen an .lvl ripper yet.

Besides it would dissuade the countless n00bs from ripping your stuff, changing a few values (a skin texture, infinite bullet time, etc) and then claiming it as their own work. I'm all for helping the community, and I always try my best to help people out with their most to as full an extent as possible. But people who rip off your work without even trying to expand on it, or learn from it, are the ones that piss me off. [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/tinyted.gif[/img]

Perhaps a selected locking system - so you could set read/write privileges to files.

As for expanding the information pool, well there are plenty of tutorials; and these forums of course - you just have to have the courtesy to ask once in a while.

[ 10-25-2002, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]