Birgers/JB's WinRott Port Thread Part 2

[jbailey]

Just got this email from birger:
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Besides that I frecquently get questions about netplay, so I am beginning to wonder
if anything can be done to improve it.
And I still havent found anything with the mouse going away in winrott.
As far as I can see there is 3 ways to go.

1: Find a opensource netgame with perfect netplay and then build in the rott code or something.
2: write a completely new rott netplay.
3: you find a better approach.

Birger


Have you heard anything about how the ingame join runs?.

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Does anyone here want to vote on the 3 options? If so, let me know...

[wwjd]

I have not played with the latest versions of WINROTT or WINROTTGL netgaming. But last I checked I THROUGHT the netcode worked ok for local LAN games, over the net not so well. we tried optimising the systems as much as possible, even reducing graphics [even on machines with killer graphics and muscle] and even using NO SOUND and all of it helped. I think the main issue is the game was designed around IPX if I recall and had pretty large packets. I'm no programmer and thus don't really know what I am saying. I plan to test the latest version of WINROTT on a local network with 3 or 4 computers and see how it's going. I'm happy to help with network testing if I can, but I can't "PLAY" more than 2 games at the same time

ON a side note, I've found this freebie called IOBIT GAME BOOSTER that shuts down useless background services allowing more machine and less cycle interrupt. It makes sense, and maybe it would help ROTT play smoother on a netgame.
http://iobit.com/gamebooster.html

[DragonsLover]

It's just to say that I just finished removing all those "tak" in all the sound effects. What should I do with all the improved WAV files?

[jbailey]

Put them in a rar file, and post the file on a download site, and make them
available as optional sound effects files for anyone who wants to try them
out...

[DragonsLover]

There you go!

[Neuro]

Originally Posted by jbailey

Just got this email from birger:
------------------------------------

1: Find a opensource netgame with perfect netplay and then build in the rott code or something.
2: write a completely new rott netplay.

You can leaf through the source codes of csDoom and Odamex, two open-source multiplayer Doom ports. The former introduced client-server netplay to the Doom world back at the turn of the millennium and went extinct after roughly a year and a half of activity, while the latter is largely based on it and has added onto and improved csDoom's code. Although an ongoing project, Odamex has slowed to a standstill lately in terms of development and player activity.

I'm no programmer, but I don't think you can achieve option #1 (so easily) since Doom hones a completely different engine and just tacking pieces of its code onto ROTT's wouldn't do much magic; however, interestingly enough, csDoom used Quakeworld's code to make playing Doom in the client-server fashion possible. The creator must have fooled around with the code quite a bit to understand how this works with that, and how he can apply the fundamentals of Quakeworld's code to Doom's engine.

All of Doom's current major multiplayer source ports (Odamex, Skulltag, and ZDaemon) have received criticism for their netcodes, but probably due to the fact that Doom (like ROTT) was never meant to be played on today's Internet (once you ping over around 100 MS, you start to easily lag). Personally, though, I think they all deliver manageable, fluid gameplay. The latter two ports are unfortunately closed-source (Skulltag was open-source years ago, and a source code of an old beta is floating around somewhere), so I didn't mention them earlier.

If you want to make a server browser and game launcher, you can check out the Internet Doom Explorer (IDE) source code.

On another note, I've fooled around with COMM-BAT™ and noticed that the bots still tend to mostly use their pistols and then randomly whip out their missile/magic weapon when you're taking on them; also, they never seem to fight each other. The biggest issue, though, is that they aren't recognized as players in WinROTT; when bots are enabled, COMM-BAT™ still treats you as a lone player looking to explore some multiplayer levels, so most of the different game modes remain grayed out and the bots do not show up on the in-game scoreboard that you see when you press TAB.

The freelook is still somewhat awkward and choppy, and the mouse sometimes feels horizontally slowed down.

Also, may I suggest merging WinROTT and WinROTTGL into a single application? I think having one port with an option to use OpenGL makes a lot of sense. It seems as if all the work has been focused on WinROTTGL rather than WinROTT, and that can be unfair to those who don't want to use OpenGL but still want to use all the additional features (not to be a grouch or anything, just pointing out a concern of mine).

[jbailey]

Those are some real leads, I'll contact birger about this and see what he says,
Thanks for the input!

[DragonsLover]

Originally Posted by Neuro

Also, may I suggest merging WinROTT and WinROTTGL into a single application? I think having one port with an option to use OpenGL makes a lot of sense. It seems as if all the work has been focused on WinROTTGL rather than WinROTT, and that can be unfair to those who don't want to use OpenGL but still want to use all the additional features (not to be a grouch or anything, just pointing out a concern of mine).

+1

I know that WinRottGL gives more stuff and more capabilities and is better graphically, but some people like me still enjoy the "classical" way to play the game.

[jbailey]

That's fine, myself & birger discussed combining both executables into 1
big executable, but there were a lot of issues that would make that nearly
impossible without a lot of work, but I'll mention it again and see how it goes...

[wwjd]

Originally Posted by DragonsLover

+1

I know that WinRottGL gives more stuff and more capabilities and is better graphically, but some people like me still enjoy the "classical" way to play the game.

+2 Lately [starting to gear up for a lan party] I'm using winrott, and shutting off the mouse look - letting the game point up when needed like it used to. It makes the mouse feel smoother.

for networking, I plan to try WINROTTAPI first, then WINROTT, then finally plain ROTT in DOSBOX with NETIPX loaded up. Hoping one of these configurations yields a multiperson playable net game on XP machines

I'm sure it is cool, but I've had no luck running rottgl on anything

Again, THANKS for all the current developing you guys are doing!!!!

[PimPamPet]

Originally Posted by DragonsLover

I know that WinRottGL gives more stuff and more capabilities and is better graphically, but some people like me still enjoy the "classical" way to play the game.

Me too, but since I'm a purist, I usually stick to either DOSBox or an actual DOS machine (I still have two, a 486 and a Pentium 90 laptop). I don't really care about playing the game in a higher resolution with better graphics too much. It's all about the nostalgia for me, which includes pixelated graphics and AdLib soundtrack. :-)

[DragonsLover]

There's something wrong with the "Republican Bonus 1" in WinRottGL (and maybe in WinRott as well). I tried getting the "Bonus Bonus" like this guy on the same level by using the HUNTBGIN level set. I did all the bonuses perfectly, excepted for the "Republican Bonus 1" which doesn't work at all even though I used and fired all the ammo of all missile weapons, none of them remaining on the playfield.

I edited my own level to get the "Bonus Bonus" and this time I got it. But, like the old guy Dipstick, it crashed the game, but it's WinRottGL this time. Under WinRott Full, it works without any problems though.

[Exitus]

Reading this thread has been exciting. I'm looking forward to the day when ROTT has it's own equivalent of SkullTag.

[wwjd]

I've got a day long NETGAMEZ coming up on Aug 8th, with 8 to 10 laptops. our top priority will be getting ROTT to a playable level on the lan. we'll try WinrottAPI, Winrott, and the old DOS version inside DOSBOX IPX tunneling. My solo tests with 4 laptops, DOSBOX seemed the preferred method for speed and feel, but I was at work and ran out of time to properly test the WINROTT versions. Started it up once, and all 4 crashed when I tried to move the first player.

Tomorrow, I'm heading to a friends to try 5 or 6 systems all grouped together and see what we get. I will post up the results.

Any sort of lan-play game setup tips are appriciated. We usually setup a dedicated server - that was always the most solid way to play 11 players.

We usually play: RANDOM GENERATED LEVELS, One Shot Kills, Capture The Triad net games. That way it is a level playing field and very, VERY fun. Even a new or unskilled player has a chance against the old pros with one shot kills. I'm a pro and I love getting whacked by a noob. The happy look on thier face is priceless. No other game but ROTT provides this experience.

FYI other games on deck are Atomic Bomberman (2nd most popular), BF1942 demo, and Re-Volt, with Descent and Forsaken on standby incase ROTT or another fails to deliver.

[wwjd]

ok, after a couple hours of setup and testing, ROTT networked via DOSBOX seemed to be the easiest to get functional. We tested on laptops, all with varios configurations including one WIN7 unit that ended up being too choppy for gaming. With WINROTTAPI and WINROTT normal tests failed to hookup and run on 4 systems - we'd get all the way in and then when people moved, they would crash out. Dosbox, although, more typing to setup, and we less resolution, played great with VERY FEW lag spots. Dosbox seemed to even teh playing field as far as hardware and networking goes. It's gonna be a great netgame and I'm sure ROTT will be the preferred action game of choice!!

[jbailey]

The networking in winrott and winrottgl still needs a lot of work, birger and
myself to a lesser degree are looking for solutions to the networking problems
in both of these games...

[Exitus]

Originally Posted by jbailey

The networking in winrott and winrottgl still needs a lot of work, birger and
myself to a lesser degree are looking for solutions to the networking problems
in both of these games...

Don't ever give up on this. Ever.

ROTT is pretty much one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) deathmatch games of all time, I'd say it's even better than Unreal Tournament and Team Fortress 2. If Comm-Bat becomes available to the average gamer, you and birger will have done a tremendous service to gamers everywhere.

Apogee could benefit from this as well. When SkullTag was released, Doom 2 started selling like crazy again.

[wwjd]

I too, VERY MUCH appriciate the efforts you guys are putting in, and I can't stress that enough! If DOSBOX has teh most fluid network play, we'll use that, but MAN would it be great to see your higher res efforts in lan games.

I don't know JACK about programming, or netcode, but maybe dosbox is the viable platform for this old dos game? Perhaps building rott upgrades around that would produce the best experience? The new winrott looks and plays fantastic, but maybe that stuff could be put back into the "dos" version of the game and run via it's IPX>IP tunneling? then we'd have the new updated looks and feel riding on the old school setup and networking. just a thought. seems like a backwards step, but it's an idea.

[Neuro]

Originally Posted by wwjd

maybe that stuff could be put back into the "dos" version of the game and run via it's IPX>IP tunneling? then we'd have the new updated looks and feel riding on the old school setup and networking. just a thought. seems like a backwards step, but it's an idea.

The problem is that ROTT frankly didn't have that great of a netcode to begin with, which is why even playing games over DOSBox can be a pain in the ass. It's best to upgrade the netcode, just like Doom's was upgraded through source ports like ZDoom.

[DaniJ]

Given Birger's response about the state of the WinROTTGL net code I thought I should respond.

Firstly, I should state the following:
Some of you may be aware of an FPS engine called the Doomsday Engine which is currently capable of playing DOOM, Heretic and Hexen and of which, I am an active developer.

About six months ago I decided to look into the ROTT source code because I was interested to discover for myself exactly where this game fits in the evolutionary time line between Wolfenstein 3D and the DOOM engine. To cut a long story short, my research concluded that somewhat surprisingly, ROTT is fundamentally not too dissimilar from what would later become the DOOM engine. Given the Wolfenstein3D source as a base; clearly, the point at which ROTT forked from Carmack's core engine development trunk was after the introduction of the WAD format, after the redesign of the map object handling (ROTT's method for this is near identical to that used in DOOM. The terminology is different but the subsystem itself is the same) but before the work on transformation towards what we now know as the MVC pattern began (I'm pretty sure this came before the move to the 2D BSP for maps).

From my observations, the core AI and gameplay mechanics of ROTT whilst noticably very different to DOOM from a player's perspective, (for example, air movement and interesting physics) are basically opporating under a very similar subsystem (albeit with a totally different approach to collision detection).

In the process of developing the Doomsday engine, our project lead (skyjake) went though a similar process to which Birger currently finds himself in, namely; refactoring the networking and core gameplay mechanics into a client/server architecture. Much effort and many versions later, we have today arrived at a pretty solid series of subsystems that connect (relatively) modern networking practice with the pretty much unchanged gameplay mechanics. Granted there are some low level issues remaining at connection/socket level but those are being addressed currently.

Anyways, on to the point of my post...

I would like to suggest that Birger perhaps considers looking at the Doomsday engine source for ideas on how to tackle the situation with WinROTTGL. It won't be an easy comparison due to very different terminology but it might prove helpful.

[wwjd]

Excellent! Hoping something can be done. There is still something amazing, fluid and speedy to the control and fun of ROTT that other games don't do the same way.

[Neuro]

Honestly? No post for four months? Goddamn.

[Another Duke Fan]

Originally Posted by Neuro

Honestly? No post for four months? Goddamn.

Well... Just stick around...

[Neuro]

Originally Posted by Another Duke Fan

Well... Just stick around...

Tell that to someone doing life in jail wondering when he'll get out

[Another Duke Fan]

Originally Posted by Neuro

Tell that to someone doing life in jail wondering when he'll get out

Diong life in jail? Whether or not, how is this supposed to to make any difference here? I am also watching for news for months you see, but there aren`t any as yet. If it helps, you are not alone in this.

[jbailey]

Well at the moment, there isn't that much to tell, the latest version of
winrottgl is 1.48, but only the sourcecode is posted, not the executable, I
sent in some net related stuff to birger about 2 months ago and I haven't
heard anything from him since, as far as I know, work is still being done
on winrottgl, but it's at a intt. pace. While I haven't heard official word
from birger on a official 1.48 executable, I have compiled it, and I suppose
it would be ok to post it somewhere for download. I went through all of my
emails from birger and oddly, there is no mention of what's been fixed/
changed in this version. Sorry for the long time/no update thing. If anyone
is interested, let me know! I will post both full and shareware versions if
asked...

[Another Duke Fan]

Thank you John. Yes, please post the compiled 1.48 executable. Hope that it would work well... A changelog would have been great to have. As you see, there is some interest in the development of this project. I guess that the full and shareware versions will both be appreciated as well as an up to date hires art and model pack. Thank you!

[jbailey]

Here's the download links for both shareware & full versions, let me know
if there is any problems:

http://www.filefactory.com/file/a148...GL148share_rar

http://www.filefactory.com/file/a148...tGL148full_rar

Hopefully there are at least a few fixes and changes, I usually have a
changelog, but not at this time....

Please test the net stuff too!

[Another Duke Fan]

Thank you very much John! It freezes on my system (Windows XP Pro, Nvidia 6800 GT, latest drivers) once I am killed and try to restart. I have some feeling that it has to do witth my videocard or memory. Not sure though. 1.46 runs well however it is missing the improvements done to 1.48. Some of them I was able to see already and found great...

[jbailey]

I compiled and ran both of the executables last night on my system, and
they ran fine, sorry to hear it's not running properly on your system though,
be sure and delete the old *.rot files and try again, if there is a winrottgl
log file see if there is anything in there, by freezing does just the game
itself freeze or your entire system? If it's just the game, there might be
a dump file in the c:\windows\minidump folder, if there is, either post
somewhere I can get it, or run it through windbg to see what the problem
was (!analyze -v is the command you would type in to windbg to trace
a minidump file).

[Another Duke Fan]

O.K., as always, I deleted all old rot files. Everything runs great and I love the new impovements, such as clear to identify secret ares, new menu items, zooming map, etc., however there is something strange at the moment when I die... At this moment the animation is missing completely, instead the game does like freezing for a minute or so and than restarts the level. Now I know that this is not related to my setup, it seems a general issue with this version. Please, take a look into this. The rest is great. Again, thank you very much!

[jbailey]

Ok, I'll do what I can myself and also let birger know about this.
Thanks!

[jbailey]

I've posted my original rott source code project on birgers' site:

http://www.riseofthetriad.dk/JohnPage.htm

Take a look and follow the quick instructions, and let me know what
you think, it needs a little polishing, but it's usable, I might also do
a project on the current winrottgl sources and gzdoom (have to get
the appropriate permissions on this one though).

[filipetolhuizen]

Hi,
I just love these projects. But one thing I miss in Winrottgl at the moment is support for widescreen modes. Could this be done?

[Neuro]

One thing I miss is multiplayer

[jbailey]

I've never thought about widescreen support, I'll talk to birger about that...

[Exitus]

Why can't I view page 6 of this thread? Could someone message me what's been going on since the end of page 5?

[Nubwagon]

Good question...I can't see it either. I tried clicking on the '6' and on the > with no luck. I even tried changing the page number in the URL to 6...no dice...

WTF??

[GrimWoman]

I think that when a post is deleted that is still goes on to another page, even though there are not enough post.

[jbailey]

Here's a quick update:

----------------------------------

Fixes in version 152

1: Sound conversion from voc to wav should be better, conv code totally rewritten.
2: When looking down and killing a enemy, horrizon was reset.
3: Made a swithc in the ext user settings "AUTO TARGET HORIZON".
4: You can use bmp file graphics in models.


For those interested the EXE can be downloaded here 'WinrottGL_152'.
And the source here 'WinrottGL_152 source'


It has been many months since work was last done on this source so you will have to take it
as it is and hope it runs better that the previus version

Any comments and questions is welcome.

Thanks

Birger

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http://www.riseofthetriad.dk/WinRottGL_152.zip - executable

http://www.riseofthetriad.dk/WinrottGL_152_SRC.zip - Source code