Improvements to the FX engine?

[SirSushi]

Originally posted by Maddieman:
Ah! I have an opinion on this! [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

I totally agree with your point about Goldeneye, (even though you're are critising my mod as a basis of your point).

The sound defenately had something to do with the way the game 'felt'. Perhaps because you could still hit the enemies during and after their dying animations. In a lot of games, enemies become inanimate objects as soon as their death animation is finished.

By far the best aspect was the interaction between the player and the enemy characters. The game encouraged you to experiment; constantly surprising and rewarding you for your actions (anyone remember the first time a scientist gets the huff, and lobs grenade at you?), even if they resulted in mission failure. As sick as this might sound, the fact that the gaurds reacted to each and every hit (in a covincing, yet sometimes comic way) , and that you could keep 'em going until they eventually died was a novelty that many other fps didn't (and still don't) offer.

On the other hand, Max Payne isn't good because of it's enemy interaction (or lack of); it's the combat scenarios presented to the player, and characterising of enemies (almost each major firefight is preceded with enemy dialogue).

I think another reason Goldeneye 'felt' better was it's impeccable control setup. None of this mouse sensitivity stuff; it really didn't need it. The implementation of a lightgun style crosshair, while still allowing the player to move was genius.

[img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Perfect Dark promised all this and more; yet, being realistic and honest, it flopped compared to Goldeneye. Perhaps it was too ambitious; perhaps Rare were over confident and sure of themselves. People have talked to me about this before, saying "Perfect Dark should be better than Goldeneye, but for some reason, it just doesn't 'feel' right". Perfect Dark was overhyped, and was worse off for it. That's why Rare haven't released any details on the sequel, and that is why 3DRealms are using their [img]graemlins/wid.gif[/img] strategy. If you don't know what to expect, you won't be dissapointed.

I've never really been able to convince a PC gamer about the merits of Goldeneye on the N64. But I still think that even in it's age, it still stands up as one of the best fps, ever.

Well, that's enough nostalgia for one post. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">uh, i didn't want to critizise your mod since i haven't checked it out yet.

it would be damn cool if max payne 2 could recreate that goldeneye feeling

[Maddieman]

I haven't even tried Perfect Dark

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is my point entirely. Perfect Dark, The Sequel to Goldeneye.

Hardly anyone, except loyal N64 fans (who hadn't traded their console for a Playstation), have even heard of it.

Rare spent too much time on the engine, then they tacked the levels, story, etc, during the last year of development. The same goes for Sons of Liberty, but don't get me started on that.

Back to PD; I think the game engine was wasted on the N64, it was so complex that the game ran at about 20 fps. Even without the simulants, pure fourway multiplayer games were impossible to play. Now, for the GCN their doing something completely different (rumour says, a bit MGS), so the technology has been wasted.

After 3-4 years of hype, players were given an awesome engine that was too powerful for the console it was designed for; and some poorly designed, rushed levels that didn't have half the lifespan of the first game.

So to conclude:

Q: Why did Perfect Dark fail?

A: No Dave Doak

[Maddieman]

Hmm...If I recall, the remote mines were in Perfect Dark also. The novelty had worn off though, (with the exception that you could now stick the mines onto enemies).

Some of the weapons were good:
the CMP 150, for example, just 'felt' right. It did get a bit stupid though, when you had about 40 weapons that all did pretty much the same thing.

Combat boosts: sorry Remedy, but Bullet Time Gameplay had already been done in PD. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Now that I think about it, I didn't care much for the green crosshair, either. The red one was much easier to see and respond to.

Anyway, whatever. We'll just have to wait and see what the future holds for these titles.

[ 08-11-2002, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[SkavenRMD]

Combat boosts: sorry Remedy, but Bullet Time Gameplay had already been done in PD. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And before that, in Requiem. And before that, in Delta (C64). Smarty-pants. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

But I agree. Whatever Rare puts together, it's always something exceptional. It was so already in their Spectrum days.

[SirSushi]

and the weapons sucked too

anyone remember the remote mines from goldeneye? me and my friend would make mine traps, kinda like you go around the corner, see that mine in front of you, shoot it (since you don't want to run into it), which would start a chain reaction making a mine you couldn't see detonate right over your head for an instant kill.

good ol' days, goldeneye MP was so much fun. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Maddieman]

And before that, in Requiem. And before that, in Delta (C64). Smarty-pants [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">With all that said, Max Payne has by far the best implementation of bullet-time gameplay yet.

GTA came close with it's adrenaline pill; I particularly liked the way the character's voices lowered in pitch. But the fact that you couldn't choose when and where to use it, severely limited it's potential.

Perfect Dark's combat boost was a bit useless; since you had to select it as a weapon, activate it, put it away, equip a new weapon and-- by then, the 10 second slow motion bonus had run out. [img]graemlins/doh.gif[/img]

They did come up with an adequate solution to bullet-time in multiplayer though. 'Smart' slow motion was supposed to activate when players came within a certain radius of each other. Seeing as the multiplayer games ran at about 5 fps, it wasn't really needed.

Duke Nukem takin' Forever will add a new twist to this, if the adrenaline pills from the original return.

Incidently, did anyone see the 'Enter the Vertex' matrix parody in Conker's Bad fur day? It used a similar move to the Max Payne shoot dodge, where the character flipped sideways from one piller, to another.

[SkavenRMD]

GTA came close with it's adrenaline pill; I particularly liked the way the character's voices lowered in pitch.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why, this actually happens in Max Payne as well, but within the scripts, you can specify per sound effect which samples lower in pitch as the time slows down and which don't. We just found the humans going "mooooo" or "uuuwwwwllmmm" as they died sound downright silly, so we decided retain the voice pitches during bullet time.

Anyone with a knack for MP modding should be able to change the scripts so that the voices lower in pitch.

Incidently, did anyone see the 'Enter the Vertex' matrix parody in Conker's Bad fur day? It used a similar move to the Max Payne shoot dodge, where the character flipped sideways from one piller, to another.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boy, I've considered buying a second hand N64 just to play that game... (and Goldeneye!)

[SirSushi]

buy conker's bad fur day. you won't regret it

[Maddieman]

Anyone with a knack for MP modding should be able to change the scripts so that the voices lower in pitch.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I gave it a shot! It's hilarious! [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
You're right though, it wouldn't have suited the proper game; but as a mod it's quite funny.

I've changed the basic enemies one, now I think I'm going to change the story one as well. Slow motion is used in some of the cutscenes, isn't it? [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

I'll try and upload it soon. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Boy, I've considered buying a second hand N64 just to play that game... (and Goldeneye!)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(and Perfect Dark!)

For all it's flaws, it's still one of the best games on the N64. And, well, Conker's Bad Fur day is a unique experience.





[ 08-13-2002, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[runggu]

How about better skyboxes?

[Krursk]

Well I would realy like to see the kenetix "ragdoll" effect on dead enemies. like in hitman and hitman 2 (demo) I hear a few up and comming games have licenced the technology. It would be nice to see in maxpayne 2.

[Maddieman]

Number one on my list would be kfs, skd, and kf2 importers for 3ds max (or whichever program you're using). We can already get them in Milkshape, so it's no big secret. Please do us a favour and just provide them.

I'd also want the character animations to run at a hight fps. For some reason, if I make an animation that's faster than 24fps, the animation slows down. This means that I have to sacrifice smoothness in order to make fast movements.

What else? Hmm...sometimes if you add custom sounds, you get a 'ripping' noise. I think it's to do with the frequency scaling, but if you could refine that, it would be nice.

Finally, I'd like more flexible code. I'd like the ability to add animations, rather than just replace existing ones. Also the ability to add custom projectile death causes; since there are only a limited amount.

Well that's my current wish-list for Max Payne 2. Hope you take some of them into account. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[ 08-23-2002, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[Decker]

-Death animations that are more reactive to the environment would be nice

-MP really excelled in particle effects, shrapnel etc. but with DX8 accelerators becoming more and more commonplace you could take this even further in MP2

-Some water that utilizes the pixel shader effects (if it fits the setting...but then again the topic was about the engine, not the game)

-Better terrain

Overall, heavy implementation of HW DX8 features would be wonderful. Unless it means you'd be cutting your sales in half or creating too much workload figuring workarounds for the non-DX8 cards.

-As for the sounds, realistic occlusion in-game as well, not just during cutscenes and more speech & ambience sounds to show it off.

All this in a well-written, tested, bug-free game, running smooth and delivered yesterday, thank you! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[Zer0]

I think the thing that holds mods back (engine wise) is the fact that its not possible to make huuuuge oudoor areas without the game absolutly dying. This leaves 2 options:

Make indoor areas.

Or make indoor style geometry thats outside (like corridors that are textures with bushes and so on).

As we saw in Evolution the engine can't handle the outside level, Sector4, very well at all.

There is a glitch in bullet time, where some of the guns fire just as fast in normal time as it does in Bullet time, The thing is, that some people want realism. Examples of this are the Berettas and Doubles, The Colt Commando, The Jackhammer and the Sniper Rifle. It does give an unruly advantage, but the game is supposed to reflect realism.

[Maddieman]

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:

Yet another thing was the cool way the pistols worked: the gun would fire just as frequently as you could press the trigger. Just like real guns. No fixed rate of fire.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

[ 09-01-2002, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[SkavenRMD]

(um, was there something you were going to say there, Maddieman?)

piano_man15: There is a glitch in bullet time, where some of the guns fire just as fast in normal time as it does in Bullet time, The thing is, that some people want realism. Examples of this are the Berettas and Doubles, The Colt Commando, The Jackhammer and the Sniper Rifle. It does give an unruly advantage, but the game is supposed to reflect realism.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's not a glitch, and the game is not supposed to reflect reality. It's supposed to reflect action movies (especially John Woo ones). The fact that weapons increase their rate of fire just makes Bullet Time more powerful.

If you want realism, play Rainbow Six. "Yeah, but you can't shootdodge in it and the bullet impact effects look so ... boring." Exactly, that's realism. Ever tried shootdodging in real life?

[Maddieman]

Ever tried shootdodging in real life?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes - I dislocated my hip. [img]graemlins/doh.gif[/img]

[Maddieman]

Fully documented code. [img]graemlins/tinyted.gif[/img]

The odd remarks now and then are useful; but more support for the coding element of modding, please. That would save me having to post my questions here, and hoping that someone from Remedy might actually stumble apon it. [img]graemlins/hhg.gif[/img]

(um, was there something you were going to say there, Maddieman?)

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(Sorry, I've only just spotted that comment - Damn this 30 minute editing limit! [img]graemlins/tinyted.gif[/img] )

I was referring to the comment above, pointing out that you had already addressed the points about realism and gun fire rates. I didn't see any need to expand it. [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

[ 09-04-2002, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[Daedalus]

Originally posted by runggu:
How about better skyboxes?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. The skyboxes in MP are too blurry and look strange, nothing compared to the fantastic skyboxes which STALKER: Oblivion Lost will have.

[Maddieman]

Fully documented code.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2 more code related things:

1. The ability to add and trigger brand new custom animations from the script.

2. The ability to refer to characters better (especially from the projectile scripts). About half of the ideas I have, can't be implemented very easily because I can only refer to the player and an enemy character by the reciever "THIS" - which is usless in the projectile code. The reciever player should be active, as should something along the lines of target (specifically for the characterhit blocks).

If you could add those, I'd be a happier person [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Maddieman]

The ability to record gameplay as a real time demo, like in the Driver games.

When the level is complete you're given the option to go into a film director mode, where you can change the cameras, and adjust the levels of bullettime. With the movie complete, you're given the option to save the real time vid (so you can edit it later) and/or convert it to avi.

Since Max Payne is based on all the best action movies; it would be a cool feature to allow the player to have a go at directing one themselves.

[Co11]

Didn't mad onion do the skyboxes? or at least help in making them or something?

[SkavenRMD]

The ability to record gameplay as a real time demo, like in the Driver games.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd love that too. But whenever I propose it to the coders, they start rolling on the floor and whimpering like kicked puppies.

The engine isn't built with time-shifting in mind, even though time can be scaled. If time-shifting was made, it would require implementations similar to network code.. so we could just as well go and add multiplayer.

[Co11]

Skaven, You guys are adding Multiplayer? [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

juuuust kidding!

[Maddieman]

so we could just as well go and add multiplayer

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay! Do that, then! [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[SkavenRMD]

Sure! Care to wait twice as long for two medicore games instead of one kickass one?

[Maddieman]

How about releasing two medicore games while we wait for the kickass one? [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

/hears bells ringing

[img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[ 09-06-2002, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[Wild Falkon]

The movie feature would kick ass, and besides, who said that because you could pull off multi means you have to do multi?

[ADM]

- Facial Animations
- Decreased Load times
- Real-time would be cool.. for example every 1 min in real life is 10 mins in game.. or something like that, so that the lighting could change and affect your vision.
- Also when you get shot (or even take to many painkillers at once) you get blurry vision for a couple of seconds, gives you vulnerability time.

[Maddieman]

More women. [img]graemlins/love.gif[/img]

Actually, I'm serious about this. There are four female characters/models in the game; two of which start off dead, and the other two die later on. All four wear skirts of some sort.

A little more diversity, please.

[ 09-07-2002, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: Maddieman ]

[ADM]

yes!! One has to wear pants!!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[Maddieman]

Heh heh...only a few people saw the body transplant experiment performed on Michelle Payne and Boris Dime. [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

It did not go well [img]graemlins/mryuck.gif[/img]

[LeadBullet]

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
Sure! Care to wait twice as long for two medicore games instead of one kickass one?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does that mean DNF multiplayer will suck. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

[SkavenRMD]

Does that mean DNF multiplayer will suck. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, because you've waited forever for that.

[MikaRMD]

Originally posted by SkavenRMD:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does that mean DNF multiplayer will suck. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, because you've waited forever for that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So obvious... yet still ROFL...

[biXen]

Everything good has few women in it... Max Payne, Snatch, Lock Stock & Two Smoking Barrels, Goodfellas, Godfather (damn that bitchy woman though)...

[biXen]

SWAT has a "lighter" engine I'd say. And it's probably too much stress to be worth it for RMD, at least since it would take place in a lot of destroyed NY buildings...

[Sergei Molotov]

Originally posted by biXen:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Co11:
Mirrors... gotta have mirrors.. any new gaming engine has the ability to use mirrors... and if Max-FX has any desire to be liscensed.. then they gotta be able to put mirrors in their level

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mirrors are extremely hard to make + are graphics intensive. So don't count on it...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They did it accurately in something as old as SWAT 3...

[Gatinater]

The enhanced engine gos VROOM!!! VROOOOM!!!