The Jace Hall DNF Footage Thread

I rather have a teaser than a full length trailer, most trailers are full of spoilers anyway.

[Betelgeuse]

Originally Posted by Syph

2 avatars in a row proving that clowns are not funny...

lol, don't be forgetting about spidey the prude, syph. /jks

[Tedades]

my job is costing me al my dnf-forum time, i'm missing all this good stuff!

[Unbeholder]

Clowns are defenitely not funny, scary is more like it.

This was proven in Hitman blood money when agent 47 disguises himself as a clown and murders everyone in the nieghbour hood

anyways on the subject of DNF, theres going to be Media but i think this is the start of the hype leading up to it. thats the simple way of puting it.

[mark84j]

Originally Posted by Syph

2 avatars in a row proving that clowns are not funny... Anyway most forums will stand for that kind of crap but Joe likes to keep things a little neater around here. Trolls are banned or their posts deleted or sometimes both

You were a hall-pass attendant in high school, weren't you?

[Delicieuxz]

So I'm way behind on getting in my comments, but overall I'm really excited by the footage.
There are a few things I didn't like, the first of which was the devestator's appearance, which seems like it belongs in to original UT (the only one I've played, might fit in with the other UT's too), where weapons make no visual sense, but are colourful without cause, and look like they were made for the rave-scene.

The second thing is the HUD. I don't think the faded mustard LED look is the best one, and I don't think that any colour presented in faded LED, a look which Half-Life, Crysis, and many others have done over the last several years, is very attractive. I guess the objective is to have a this/next-gen military tech look, but in this case, even after that objective is accomplished, it's an ugly look. Not because of how you or anyone pulled it off, but just because that's what it is. It does a practical job for the real-life technology in which it's featured, but it still looks ugly while doing it. I know 3dRealms believe in Fun > Realism, I think the same should apply for Aesthetics > Realism.

The last thing I thought could be touched up was the ripper. Which, in some shots, looks like it suffers from the same thing which the Crysis weapons suffered from, which is that the perspective makes too big a shift from the player's end of the weapon, to the tip of the weapon, making the gun look too elongated.


There you go, my constructive criticism. I hope 3dR are still looking at this thread every so often, but whateva. It's looking good and I'm very excited, thanks 3dR.

Originally Posted by George Broussard

Never fear, there are bright, daylight levels, as well.

Nice, I love bright and outdoors, and I'm sure you have the eyes to make some beautiful locations to blow sh!t up in.

Originally Posted by Delicieuxz

The last thing I thought could be touched up was the ripper. Which, in some shots, looks like it suffers from the same thing which the Crysis weapons suffered from, which is that the perspective makes too big a shift from the player's end of the weapon, to the tip of the weapon, making the gun look too elongated.

If that didn't happen it would mean the weapons are stickyed to your face. It would only need some blur to complete the scene. Without blur it would mean you have a 50 kilos HUGE weapon in front of you.

[Delicieuxz]

I think they'd just have to have to make a rule to apply a separate perspective to whatever weapon is being held by the player.

It's not about that. Remember that the weapon is probably being held FOR REAL this time, with all the Fullbody awareness going on. So you don't really have much freedom to tweak it without screwing up the fullbody awareness.

[Delicieuxz]

Yes, the weapon being held will be 3d and not 2d, that doesn't mean you can't do what I said, or that it would interfere with anything else.

I'm saying that it's easier said than done. That is one of the cases where 3DR nods in disagreement when reading a post. You see, you can't have two different perspectives for the world and for the weapon. Well you can but it's just a useless hassle.

As you can see the weapon looks good in the pigcop's hand, if you were in multiplayer and changed it's size to view it "properly" (dunno what's so proper about unealistic perspective) then other players would look funny holding it. As it would be huge in comparison. It could seriously make a pistol look like a shotgun.

And it's not as simple as "I know it's not 2d, it's a model, you can still do it blah blah blah". Remember I talked about Full body awareness, it's NOT that simple.

[Delicieuxz]

>> "I'm saying that it's easier said than done. That is one of the cases where 3DR nods in disagreement when reading a post."

Making a game is easier said than done. Yet it happens. And please. Besides people not usually nodding in disagreement, it'd be great if you didn't speak for others, especially when you have no knowledge on the subject.

>> "You see, you can't have two different perspectives for the world and for the weapon. Well you can but it's just a useless hassle."

Yes, you can, with ease. The degree to which it is a hassle, or if it is at all, you don't know. That is apparent. Therefore your commentary is serving as a useless hassle, to be honest.

>> "As you can see the weapon looks good in the pigcop's hand, if you were in multiplayer and changed it's size to view it "properly" (dunno what's so proper about unealistic perspective) then other players would look funny holding it."

It wouldn't look funny to other players, because they would only see the perspective shift on the weapon that is in their own hands. And the point is that the goal of a perspective adjustment would be to fix the lack of a realistic one, just as it was needed in Crysis, where the guns narrow too much towards their tip, with an unrealistic perspective.




>> "And it's not as simple as "I know it's not 2d, it's a model, you can still do it blah blah blah". Remember I talked about Full body awareness, it's NOT that simple."

All you're doing is making the solid case that you haven't any knowledge here. Full body awareness has nothing to do with how simple it would be, and would not be interfered with. The case is factually as simple as I stated it is, but I'm not in control of how you misinterpret or understand that.

"They'd just have to have to make a rule to apply a separate perspective to whatever weapon is being held by the player" is an accurate description of the situation. Everything that came next seems to be needless blabber for the sake of attention, and I really hope you're done.

You see, full body awareness has EVERYTHING to do. You see the same 3d model that others see. Modifying the perspective on your hands and weapon would also make everything else look different. That's the whole point of full body awareness, that you don't use a separate model for first person perspective than the model others see of you.

Imagine looking at your hands and your feet at the same time, you can make one perspective for hands and feet if they are the same 3d model. Just do the math man.

There are things that need to be sacrificed in game design. For example the weapons need to be seen almost entirely on screen. Realistically, some weapons wouldn't ever be seen ingame, for example the shotgun, I wouldn't hold a shotgun to eye level if I wanted to keep my nose intact...But it's still shown on every single shooter.

If anything, Crysis perspective is highly realistic, as you can see in models, most weapons are being held to eye level. And that view always makes the end of the gun seem a lot narrower. Just hold a gun in real life and you'll see.

Just read any post about FBA that George Broussard has posted and you'll see how bitchy it is to work on FBA. I didn't say it, he did. And I'm sure he has plenty of Game design experience.

[ShadowsWake]

Originally Posted by Monkey Butler

There won't be music AT ALL is what's been reported, other than music from within the levels (jukeboxes, strip shows etc.)

I also know they were talk about some heavy rock music kicking in when you got into a boss battle. I hope they left that in, as that would be awesome!

[Parkar]

Originally Posted by timothy2

You see, full body awareness has EVERYTHING to do. You see the same 3d model that others see. Modifying the perspective on your hands and weapon would also make everything else look different. That's the whole point of full body awareness, that you don't use a separate model for first person perspective than the model others see of you.

Imagine looking at your hands and your feet at the same time, you can make one perspective for hands and feet if they are the same 3d model. Just do the math man.

There are things that need to be sacrificed in game design. For example the weapons need to be seen almost entirely on screen. Realistically, some weapons wouldn't ever be seen ingame, for example the shotgun, I wouldn't hold a shotgun to eye level if I wanted to keep my nose intact...But it's still shown on every single shooter.

If anything, Crysis perspective is highly realistic, as you can see in models, most weapons are being held to eye level. And that view always makes the end of the gun seem a lot narrower. Just hold a gun in real life and you'll see.

Just read any post about FBA that George Broussard has posted and you'll see how bitchy it is to work on FBA. I didn't say it, he did. And I'm sure he has plenty of Game design experience.

Actualy FBA doesn't necessarily mean you see the same animation and model as other players see. It just means that you see a full body. In most cases what you say is how it's done but if a developer feels like doingt wice the work they could very well make one set of animations for first person and one for third person.

If you want the character model to interact with the world around you (hands grabing onto stuff in the world etc) you can't fiddle with the FOV which is usualy done in games with the traditional firstperson weapon model (world rendered with a fov like say 80-100 deg and weapon at say 45-60). This avoids the stretched look you get due to an unrealisticaly high fov if you keep the head at the average distance from the screen.

So while it's true a gun looks narrower furhter away from your eye in real life the efect is highly exagregated with the commonly high fov you see in fps games.

As for shotgun vs any other rifle you do hold them the same way (ie suported against your shoulder) while aiming so I don't see what you mean by that comment.

Edit: Not sure about this but due to how close to traditional games the weapons are held in Crysis and the fact that you never really see the arms interact with anything in the world except when holding hostages I wouldn't be suprised to learn they actualy have the fov adjusted diferently on the players model. And no the pickup animation does not pick the model off the actual ground but it does one hell of a good job implying thats whats going on.

But then again this is DNF, for interactivity I seriously hope you actually see Duke grabbing things. It's the LEAST I expect from it.

About the shotgun comment, most of the times a shotty is held at waist level. Check out any movie, etc.

[Insedeel]

Originally Posted by timothy2

About the shotgun comment, most of the times a shotty is held at waist level. Check out any movie, etc.

Yes, because we all know everything in movies is realistic! ... Sorry just had to do it ..

[Commando Nukem]

Originally Posted by timothy2

About the shotgun comment, most of the times a shotty is held at waist level. Check out any movie, etc.

I was agreeing with you until you made this comment. You always shoulder a shotgun. Firing from the hip is generally done by people who want to show off. It can be done, yes, but generally it puts a lot more strain on your wrists to hold it at the hip. Shouldering is more accurate and "healthier." Ask any shooter and they will tell you this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztQ570wIrno <--- See how hard it kicks him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UK816QisXk <--- looking right down the sights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOPuEuJx1MY <--- same.

Well, we're talking about a videogame with a muscled guy shooting aliens while drinking beer and getting laid. Want to talk to me about realism?

I know the proper way to do it is with the shoulder. But this is Duke Nukem. Have you ever seen him use a shotgun on his shoulder?

[Commando Nukem]

Originally Posted by timothy2

Well, we're talking about a videogame with a muscled guy shooting aliens while drinking beer and getting laid. Want to talk to me about realism?

That would fit except you were arguing against what reality is (having a shotgun shouldered vs hipped)

[Lt.Havoc]

Well, ya know, the vids are fine and all, but can you tell me what type of ammo they used, expect in the first vid where it says they use slugs? Did the other guys use 12/70 or 12/76 ammo (12/70 is standart buckshot 12 Gauge, while 12/76 is the bigger "magnum" round)?

There are types of ammo with lesser recoil, then it depends on the type of shotgun, how much it weights, if you use it regulary etc. I tell ya, a stronger guy wouldnt had much of a problem with the shotty in the first vid, that half-portion didnt efven saw the recoil coming at all.

Also, Duke Shotgun dosent even has a buttstock at all, so he cant shoulder it, he would shoot it from the waist, like in hollywood and wouldnt even have much of a problem, because he is big like a fricking Orger and can control the shotgun, because its his main tool of the traid.

Its like with every weapon: if you aren trained and used to it, you can not really control it. A good trained person can always control the recoil.

[Echo Black]

Well, to be fair, it's Duke Nukem we're talking about. He'd probably want to show off, even if it had a stock.

Originally Posted by Lt.Havoc

Well, ya know, the vids are fine and all, but can you tell me what type of ammo they used, expect in the first vid where it says they use slugs? Did the other guys use 12/70 or 12/76 ammo (12/70 is standart buckshot 12 Gauge, while 12/76 is the bigger "magnum" round)?

There are types of ammo with lesser recoil, then it depends on the type of shotgun, how much it weights, if you use it regulary etc. I tell ya, a stronger guy wouldnt had much of a problem with the shotty in the first vid, that half-portion didnt efven saw the recoil coming at all.

Also, Duke Shotgun dosent even has a buttstock at all, so he cant shoulder it, he would shoot it from the waist, like in hollywood and wouldnt even have much of a problem, because he is big like a fricking Orger and can control the shotgun, because its his main tool of the traid.

Its like with every weapon: if you aren trained and used to it, you can not really control it. A good trained person can always control the recoil.

Pretty much what I was talking about, thanks.

[JobivanHiob]

I need more DUKE

[Sharpie]

Originally Posted by JobivanHiob

I need more DUKE

I feel your pain. I need something fresh and dukish to tide me over the next few weeks or its not looking good for me.

[Jake Crusher]

BTW, wasn`t that shotgun icon in the right-low part of the screen looking just like a shotgun sprite from Duke Nukem 3D? I mean, somewhere in the footage, I`ve seen something like that?

[hark]

Originally Posted by JobivanHiob

I need more DUKE

Indeed. Though at least we know that the next time we see Duke, it'll be in a big way.

[ReadOnly]

Originally Posted by ShadowsWake

I also know they were talk about some heavy rock music kicking in when you got into a boss battle. I hope they left that in, as that would be awesome!

Considering Prey and all 'emotional' things they want to do in games I'm guessing music will be, like a movie score. Though, it was Scott Miller saying about emotional response from gamer and such. DNF is George's baby. Don't know what it'll be. But you can do lots of stuff only with ambience and without music.

[Joe Siegler]

Thread closed as we've pretty much exhausted all angles of discussion about the Jace Hall show footage. This thread has degenerated into a myriad of topics that are better served being discussed in other (existing) threads.