Theories why Tommy has no legs

[9Nails]

Dextra brought up a hilarious tip which states that Tommy has no legs. Simply look down while playing in first person perspective and you can verify that Tommy has no legs, or other body parts for the matter. Yet, Tommy somehow can sprout arms as needed to push buttons, rip the legs off of Grenadier Crabs, and hold weapons. He can be viewed intact inside of reflections. And he also seems to "kick" bottles and other objects on the floor. These actions aid to the illusion that Tommy actually does have a body with feet and hands.

So, what are the theories that can explain such a disharmony of reality and fact?

Is Tommy a being hidden behind portal technology? Is Tommy the inverse of a Vampire, which he can be seen in reflections but not in direct view? Is Tommy some sort of phantom? Does he posess futuristic personal Stealth technology from his experience with the US Army? Or perhaps is everything that you see, really just a dream?!

Opinions?

[Altered Reality]

Or perhaps, everything you see is just a first person shooter.

[TerminX]

They probably didn't have the time, resources or interest to implement full body awareness. The director's commentary for F.E.A.R. stated that it took somewhere around 3 months to get everything looking proper -- this is a lot of time that a developer could be spending doing things deemed more important.

[hiob]

but the point is that it doesn´t matter, this is nitpicking at the highest level

[dextra]

hiob: even if it is nitpicking, the smallest things can create or destroy an atmosphere of a game. though i have to admit that it doesnt bother me at all that tommy has got no legs and that it just ought to be a funny reply in the gameplay tips thread, doh

[martin88]

How many FPS games can you name that actually do have legs?

[dextra]

not that many *cough* and as i said it doesnt bother at all...

[elsenator]

I can only remember two games where the main character has a body you can look down at. Those two games are Trespasser and FEAR.
I like it a lot in FEAR, since the body casts shadows which gives something to the spooky atmosphere in the game, but for Prey i don't really care. It would have been cooler, of course, but as others point out, it's nitpicking. It gives nothing to the gameplay.

In Trespasser it was pretty cool too, since that game relied on a sort of virtual virtual reality, since you had to move your arms around to grab stuff and tip boxes. Hmm, Trespasser is actually a really innovative game. The physics in it was years ahead of its time.

[Mothra]

Originally Posted by martin88

How many FPS games can you name that actually do have legs?

Condemned.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Mothra

Condemned.

FEAR
Tribes 2 ( and the rest may have it too, cant confirm it though )
Thief ( 1 2 ?) and 3

to name a few

[Damien_Azreal]

Full body awareness is very difficult to implament and use. Often you have several clipping issues and then there are differences to the walking movements and such. Remember lots of people don't like the movement in games like FEAR, Comdemned and Riddick.

I don't really think PREY is missing much by not having it. While I love FBA in other games, there are a lot of FPS that I don't feel it is really needed.

Also, games that use FBA....

Chronicles of Riddick
FEAR
Condemned
Thief: Deadly Shadows
Tribes games

Other games have legs that you see when you look down (Gore, Will Rock) but it isn't FBA, it's a cheap atempt at it.

[m4dmax]

um..tommy has legs and arms...hate to break the news to you. If they made it so you could see your whole body through first person there would be definitive clipping issues and various other problems. How many fps games really show your legs and such? 2 maybe 3.


during singleplayer:
pm_thirdperson 1
pm_thirdpersonangle 160

[Damien_Azreal]

Why do I even post sometimes? Didn't I say pretty much the same thing?

[Sang]

I think it'd be a good idea for game developers to start considering FBA. I mean, we've now got the best graphics and all that stuff yet you don't see your own body when looking down? It doesn't mean that an FPS sucks if it doesn't have FBA, but I'd like to see more of it in the future

[m4dmax]

if you turn on a certain shadow option through console that makes tommy have a full shadow and you look straight down you can see the shadow and dark footprints where your feet should be as if there was "FBA" but it didnt work out correctly.

[Mikeh]

seta g_showplayershadow "1"

If anyone is interested. I find adding the players' shadow really adds to teh depth of a game, but i can se why it's off by default..casting shadow can often blacken things that you need to see and would not unless you had yer flashlight/lighter out. Can do the same thing in Doom 3.

But i don't care if i can see feet when i look down...


Shit, Tommy's fists are HUGE.

[avatar_58]

Personaly I love the FBA in FEAR and Condemned, but many people bitch at how the movement appears to be sluggish and odd......but really thats technically how we walk. Most games just have the player gliding across a sheet of ice with artificial bobbing.

However once you have FBA you can use real bobbing (moves with the model's head) The movement also matches the model's leg movements, rather than a set walking speed. I wouldn't mind if all games from now on moved like FEAR, but thats just me.

I believe one day in the future all games are going to use FBA anyway, its just a matter of whether or not you want to be one of them today or tomorrow. DNF is going to use it, for reference

[OnyxBMW]

Theres really 2 reasons why they don't show the legs.

One: If the legs showed, it'd be another massive resource hog on an already straining system due to the D3 engine's requirements.

Two: If you were standing in the middle of a portal, one leg would be shown, and the other would be cut off and bleeding.

'nough said.

[Otto von Keisinger]

Originally Posted by OnyxBMW

Theres really 2 reasons why they don't show the legs.

One: If the legs showed, it'd be another massive resource hog on an already straining system due to the D3 engine's requirements.

It's no more than having one more character on screen at all times, and then the AI is minimal.

Originally Posted by OnyxBMW

Two: If you were standing in the middle of a portal, one leg would be shown, and the other would be cut off and bleeding.

No, it would simply be on the other side of the portal. The leg would still be connected to you, albeit through a portal that takes you to the other side of the map.

Of course, having FBA raises the question of how Tommy is able to walk into a portal that opens into itself (such as the ones at the end of the Prey demo) without portalfragging himself.

[Damien_Azreal]

Originally Posted by OnyxBMW

Theres really 2 reasons why they don't show the legs.

One: If the legs showed, it'd be another massive resource hog on an already straining system due to the D3 engine's requirements.

Two: If you were standing in the middle of a portal, one leg would be shown, and the other would be cut off and bleeding.

'nough said.

Your first reason doesn't really make any sense. FEAR has a very system heavy engine behind it, even more so than Doom 3. And it runs with FBA fine.

The main reason most developers don't do FBA is that it's very difficult to get right. Without tons of clipping issues and such.

The second reason doesn't really make sense either... why would the other leg be cut off? It would simply be on the other side of the portal, but it would still be attached.
If the portal closed on it then it would be cut off...

[Otto von Keisinger]

Originally Posted by Damien_Azreal

Why do I even post sometimes? Didn't I say pretty much the same thing?

[5char]

[OnyxBMW]

The portals themselves are not actually there. The image of the other side is a mirror image of whats there, but your body does not go to the other side of the portal until the camera is warped to that section. What would happen is your leg would end up clipping through the portal, and not actually be going to the other side of the portal because portals are not tunnels in prey, they are teleports. (this is all based on how it's coded not how it works in game)

In other words, the leg would get cut off by the portal, not appear on the other side. (learn how the portals work )

Now, as for reason one, that's just a BS excuse built on nothing but false evidence. HOWEVER, it would require a lot of time and modification of the engine to add the legs to the world in complete working order (or at the very least a lot of level redesign), and I'd rather play the game now than wait for legs that I don't even need that won't even work perfectly.

BTW, Halo 2 has legs shown also.

Also, he wouldn't walk into the portal, he'd walk into himself and probably break his nose.

Or, if the legs are built on the screen itself and are not part of the game world, then it'd still need more coding to work and it just isn't a feature that is needed.

And otto, I keep telling you how the portals work and you still won't listen....why?

[9Nails]

I thought that a portal was to be thought of more as a doorway, and not as a worm hole or some other distance bridging / teleporting device. You can see through them to the other side. You can walk around them and one side will appear as if it were a door way. And you can shoot things through the portal without your bullets changing velocity and trajectory then matching initial velocity an trajectory on the other side.

Any way, for you guys with the sticks so far up your whoo-ha that you think this thread was nit-picking, ummmm.... Here's your send of humor upgrade. Please have it installed ASAP. Demo? Check! Turned Gold? Check! Release date... Not soon enough; so while we're all waiting, lets have a little fun!

[Damien_Azreal]

We understand humor. No pill needed, I was just stating why HH didn't use FBA in Prey.
It's just that I have a hard time following what the hell OnyxBMW is saying. His theory on the portal's in PREY makes no damn sense.

But FBA is a difficult thing to get right in games, and when it is done correctly most people don't like it. I remember tons of complaints on the body movement in Riddick... but it has the best use of FBA I've seen. FEAR is right behind it.

[Orochi Avlis]

Originally Posted by Damien_Azreal

Your first reason doesn't really make any sense. FEAR has a very system heavy engine behind it, even more so than Doom 3. And it runs with FBA fine.

The main reason most developers don't do FBA is that it's very difficult to get right. Without tons of clipping issues and such.

I actually found a bug in FEAR with the FBA. In the office level there was a corpse lying over the table face up. I can't remember what I did exactly, but when I was over his face, the porportions were off. Either the legs got smaller, or his head got bigger. Either way it didn't look right.
I think it was because I just passed by really close to the table and it must of auto adjusted it.

[Damien_Azreal]

Yeah, that's one thing FEAR had problems with. If you looked down at certain times things you were standing on didn't look right.
Like if standing in water and looked down... it looked as if you were standing on the water.

Which is why I think Riddick has done FBA best. It really felt like you had a whole body instead of hands holding weapons. When you looked down and turned, the feet would turn one by one, as in real life. Looked great, and the way you could turn your head then your body would follow.

But FEAR and Condemned are right behind it in the FBA department. They had great use of it as well. And FEAR's melee combat system was brilliant.

[AWE300]

Riddick was an awesome game.

[hiob]

Originally Posted by AWE300

Riddick was an awesome game.

yeah thanks for reminding me, my friggin brother lost my copy, but now is the time to charge him, oh sweet revenge

[Otto von Keisinger]

Originally Posted by OnyxBMW

The portals themselves are not actually there. The image of the other side is a mirror image of whats there, but your body does not go to the other side of the portal until the camera is warped to that section. What would happen is your leg would end up clipping through the portal, and not actually be going to the other side of the portal because portals are not tunnels in prey, they are teleports. (this is all based on how it's coded not how it works in game)

In other words, the leg would get cut off by the portal, not appear on the other side. (learn how the portals work )

And properly coded, the portals would cause the model to be rendered twice. once on the one side, and then once on the other. A stencil brush would clip each model to the necessary size, so that when rendered, the two models would appear to be one. This wouldn't even be needed in every situation (there are some relatively special cases). It would look and feel exactly how it should, so I don't see the problem.

Originally Posted by OnyxBMW

Now, as for reason one, that's just a BS excuse built on nothing but false evidence. HOWEVER, it would require a lot of time and modification of the engine to add the legs to the world in complete working order (or at the very least a lot of level redesign), and I'd rather play the game now than wait for legs that I don't even need that won't even work perfectly.

FBA should work in favor of gameplay, not the other way round.

Originally Posted by OnyxBMW

BTW, Halo 2 has legs shown also.

I know. I've never had the opportunity to play around with to see how it looks though. Far as I know, it looks like complete crap, outside of a few general cases.

Originally Posted by OnyxBMW

Also, he wouldn't walk into the portal, he'd walk into himself and probably break his nose.

Only in real life. The first time I played that level, I didn't actually walk through those portals for fear of what would happen.

Originally Posted by OnyxBMW

Or, if the legs are built on the screen itself and are not part of the game world, then it'd still need more coding to work and it just isn't a feature that is needed.

And it would go against the entire point of having FBA. The poiint is to render your body in the environment, so that you may have more realistic interactions with said environment.

Originally Posted by OnyxBMW

And otto, I keep telling you how the portals work and you still won't listen....why?

zOMG I HAT U!!!

[OnyxBMW]

Lol @ otto.

Well, the problem with rendering it twice and then having half as a mirror is: One, the mirror image isn't always the same as the real image. I have noticed in many cases where the mirror has a slightly lower quality than the real world.

Also, it'd be a PITA to line up the image of the legs on one side of the portal to the legs on the other, as even a slight micrometre off and anyone would notice that your leg has now shifted from one position to another. Not to mention, if there IS a shift in quality (beyond lighting) then it'd be easy to spot that it is not the same leg, which brings us back to the original arguement.

It just isn't worth it and it'd be too hard to get it right in the game world to bother spending another month or two redoing everything just to implement a feature that isn't even necessary. I mean, how often do you actually LOOK at your feet as opposed to anything BUT your feet?


Also, hitman: blodo money had feet in first person, but you never really notice it in that game since third person is so much better (but it was done really nicely imo)

[9Nails]

The only thing I think about being rendered in a mirror is Duke Nuke'm.

"Damn, I'm lookin' good!"

[paramite12]

Have any of you seen the new bothers in arms game? Hell's Highway. It has FBA and it is freaking amazing. The way they did it was that they made a super well animated and detailed character (like in a 3rd person game) and just stuck the camera in his eyes. The devs said at first the camera bobbled around like mad when he ran (like in real life but your brain helps compensate so you don't notice it) so they calmed it down a bit and it looks incredible.

[Fyrus Dakren]

You should see the people over in the gamespot forums. They are really pissed that Gordan Freeman deosn't have legs. In truth, the reason Tommy has no legs is because he is a Cherokee. His magical Cherokee power enables him the power of being a floating whisp with arms. However, he has the ability to make it seem like he is a full human being. This is why when you view him in third person he has all parts.

The truth has been opened to you.

[OnyxBMW]

Originally Posted by Fyrus Dakren

You should see the people over in the gamespot forums. They are really pissed that Gordan Freeman deosn't have legs. In truth, the reason Tommy has no legs is because he is a Cherokee. His magical Cherokee power enables him the power of being a floating whisp with arms. However, he has the ability to make it seem like he is a full human being. This is why when you view him in third person he has all parts.

The truth has been opened to you.

Oh noes! He hath descovered the plot for prey pre-launch! The game must be held back for 2 more years to allow a plot change! Whatever shall we do?!

[Fyrus Dakren]

This is no secret plot. It is known far and wide.

Know the Cherokee

Respect the Cherokee

[OnyxBMW]

Originally Posted by Fyrus Dakren

This is no secret plot. It is known far and wide.

Know the Cherokee

Respect the Cherokee

LIES!

[9Nails]

I thought that this was funny. His arm is in view, but not in the mirror's reflection; and it doesn't show his arm crossing his body. Clearly, Tommy is looking at a stunt double in the mirror, and not at himself!

[d3ad connection]

Reminds me of Duke3d when I stood in front of a mirror and switch weapons, waiting for mirror duke to do the same

[9Nails]

Hehehehe!! Duke was cool... "Damn, I'm lookin' good!"

I wonder if Jon St. John can still do Duke's voice?

[Damien_Azreal]

Jon St. John is doing the voice of Duke for DNF.

So the answer to your question would be... yes.