Why the hate???

[dumbdude]

Ok people lets STOP all this negativity. BE POSITIVE!!!!!
and dont always asume the worst..... hey who know what might happen...

Also can we please stop with all the rumors its not helping anything either.

Thank You

[peoplessi]

I agree, but some people are pissed, and that's their right. As long as it's stays clean, going in-persona and insulting people by name is something that you don't do.

[Babe]

I am positive and still believe DNF will come out, if not for anything else, for the sake that George will not want to reduce himself to a laughing stock by his own actions. And if he is able to deliver DNF with the good old fun factor, who knows, it may be regarded as one of the greatest comeback in PC gaming history.

[Arexx]

I still remember Prey being shelved. Only to re-appear a few years later, much to the surprise of the gaming community.

[Caine]

yeah sure, 12 years of wait and all the shit news, george isnt saying anything of course he may not or dont want to yet perhaps or just plays WoW. who knows.
all the wait seems to be for nothing, we expected the badass return but it seems like a whining return at all...

[LadiesAndGentlemen]

It doesn't matter if we're being positive or negative cause the game is ****ED.

[jet jaguar 2.0]

'Why the hate?'

Are you trying to be funny? We wait 12 years, many fans defending 3DR and GB through thick and thin, and this is the way it ends? How else do you expect fans to react? If GB doesn't come out and offer SOMETHING(an apology, a thank you, SOMETHING!) I will lose what little respect I had for him before this latest DNF debacle. I don't care what he's going through, the fans that have followed and supported 3DR deserve something approaching an explanation or at the very least a conclusion. Oh yeah wait I forgot, 3DR doesn't owe anyone anything.

Because it's FON-to-DUE?

[Drazula]

"Why the hate?"

No hate. FRUSTRATION. Many of us, many times complained about 3DRs inability to manage DNF, only to be called trolls and reassured that "3DR knows what they are doing". Certainly, no one should manage by advice found on forums, but if you are arrogant enough to say "we know what we are doing" and telling business partners to STFU, you better be damn sure you deliver.

[Arexx]

I wouldn't exactly call Take 2 a business partner. They inherited publishing rights because they purchased GT Interactive. 3DRealms made a deal with GT Interactive, not Take 2... I understand George's response to Take 2, especially when he didn't make any deals with them and when 3DRealms is funding 99.9999% of the project, everyone else needs to STFU and let them run it however they wish.

Last I checked 3DRealms and DNF isn't finished (double entendre there! ). If they want to take 20 years to make it, that's their business. I look forward to it if and when it comes out, but I stopped following their progress about 5 years ago, there's so many other games out there, I won't get bored anytime soon.

[Klaus Kinski]

I don't have hate for computer games. Maybe DNF comes out, maybe don't. Life goes on. It's just a computer game, not the cure for HIV. I do understand the frustration of others and even the schadenfreude of (look how diplomatic I am! ) DNF critics but after 10 years waiting for the game, I'm having no hard time adjusting to the thought I won't see DNF ever. It's a shame but so are many other things in life (I want my tax money back, suckers! ). What's upsetting to me is that people lost their jobs, their financial security. That's actually worse.

Remember, it's just a game.

[SplatterHappy]

Originally Posted by Arexx

I wouldn't exactly call Take 2 a business partner. They inherited publishing rights because they purchased GT Interactive. 3DRealms made a deal with GT Interactive, not Take 2... I understand George's response to Take 2, especially when he didn't make any deals with them and when 3DRealms is funding 99.9999% of the project, everyone else needs to STFU and let them run it however they wish.

Last I checked 3DRealms and DNF isn't finished (double entendre there! ). If they want to take 20 years to make it, that's their business. I look forward to it if and when it comes out, but I stopped following their progress about 5 years ago, there's so many other games out there, I won't get bored anytime soon.

Not to defend the actions of Take Two, but they are a business partner: by 3D Realms own admission they received $2.5 million dollars from Take Two in July of 2008. Regardless of what it was for, it makes them a business partner.

Just trying to keep the facts straight.

[jaimie10]

Originally Posted by jet jaguar 2.0

'Why the hate?'

Are you trying to be funny? We wait 12 years, many fans defending 3DR and GB through thick and thin, and this is the way it ends? How else do you expect fans to react? If GB doesn't come out and offer SOMETHING(an apology, a thank you, SOMETHING!) I will lose what little respect I had for him before this latest DNF debacle. I don't care what he's going through, the fans that have followed and supported 3DR deserve something approaching an explanation or at the very least a conclusion. Oh yeah wait I forgot, 3DR doesn't owe anyone anything.

I agree. Totally. Any criticism 3DR has endured in the last few weeks is entirely justified. They have had plenty of time to produce a game, they have had the finances, they had the team to do the job. They have not produced anything... in 12 years, save a lame 'teaser' trailer that was a long, long time ago. Look guys lets be honest here. GB wanted to prioduce the perfect game. There is no such thing as the perfect game, games are a very subjective thing. He lost sight of the big picture - to develop games and to sell games to Joe Public. Look at the GTA series, they are by far from perfect, but they're great games to play and the important thing is we are playing them - as opposed to to dreaming about playing them. Part of me thought GB was some kind of misunderstood genius and that through all the bs, this great game was going to appear, silencing all the critics and detractors. The sad reality is that he is someone with unquestionable talent, but someone with talent that has lost their way. What would you honestly prefer - to play DNF now and be satisfied say 8/10 - or play DNF in 2013 and be satisfied 10/10?

[Mofasa]

I´m disapponted at the leaked gameplay (10th may), if this reflects the game´s status , it´s a shame. but i hope it does not... not impressed.

[The Count]

Originally Posted by Arexx

I wouldn't exactly call Take 2 a business partner. They inherited publishing rights because they purchased GT Interactive. 3DRealms made a deal with GT Interactive, not Take 2... I understand George's response to Take 2, especially when he didn't make any deals with them and when 3DRealms is funding 99.9999% of the project, everyone else needs to STFU and let them run it however they wish.

That's irrelevant. Business reality is that contract partners change by takeovers and whatsnot. If you own a game company you have to deal with this stuff and you have to keep your bases covered if you wanna play the big independent rockstar-developer and piss off all these "suits" trying to inflict time tables and all those terrible duties upon you. If you get vulnerable you will get run over. Simple.

Originally Posted by Arexx

Last I checked 3DRealms and DNF isn't finished (double entendre there! ). If they want to take 20 years to make it, that's their business.

Please, this is only annoying and completely unrealistic. You cannot work on a game for so long without changing engines and teams several times. And you'd have to have unlimited fundings.

Originally Posted by Drazula

"Why the hate?"

No hate. FRUSTRATION. Many of us, many times complained about 3DRs inability to manage DNF, only to be called trolls and reassured that "3DR knows what they are doing". Certainly, no one should manage by advice found on forums, but if you are arrogant enough to say "we know what we are doing" and telling business partners to STFU, you better be damn sure you deliver.

Draz is absolutely right.

Originally Posted by Mofasa

I´m disapponted at the leaked gameplay (10th may), if this reflects the game´s status , it´s a shame. but i hope it does not... not impressed.

Yeah that's some kind of a reality check, too. I remember GB admitting years ago - during the dark times of the media blackout - that they had learned some lessons, that they had "cut back" on ambitious stuff that probably would have been "cool" but too difficult to implement. Maybe he meant gimmicks like sending emails from within the game - which is obviously useless - but if it's true then what the heck should have taken them so long, what exactly should have been the elements of a "perfect" shooter ??
And did they really ever scrap the content completely ? I saw a minecart ride in the 98 trailer, I saw one in the 2001 trailer and there's also one in the 2009 demo reel. Las Vegas, Hoover Dam, the desert - most areas seem to have remained the same.
Excuses, only excuses...

[Derfernet]

If we're thinking of the same leaked video it was a animation demo reel for a resume; displaying gameplay was a secondary concern at best. I think whoever made it was concerned more about showing off animation to prospective employers.

[RuskiSnajper.]

Originally Posted by dumbdude

Ok people lets STOP all this negativity. BE POSITIVE!!!!!
and dont always asume the worst..... hey who know what might happen...

thankyou

QFT

Indeed I don't like the fact that some who only come here to say "it's over ,dnf is dead ,..." and that kind of crap.

[Arexx]

Originally Posted by SplatterHappy

Not to defend the actions of Take Two, but they are a business partner: by 3D Realms own admission they received $2.5 million dollars from Take Two in July of 2008. Regardless of what it was for, it makes them a business partner.

Just trying to keep the facts straight.

I understand that legally, they were a "partner", but I also understand George's reaction to them. He didn't negotiate with them initially for anything, nor did they pay much at all towards the game. The $2.5 million you're talking about, from what I understood in 3DRealms press release was for an as yet unannounced game, not DNF (or at least not 100% for DNF) and 3DRealms has funded (in their own words) 99.999% of the game. The company hasn't shut down yet and the game hasn't been shelved yet.

From what I understand from 3DRealms press release, they were reaching agreed upon milestones. It was Take 2 that suddenly decided they wanted to change the rules in what I believe is an obvious attempt to take over the game and/or 3DRealms. The IP would be worth much more to them than one game.

3DRealms has always stated the game's release date will be WID, it's probably one of the most well known facts about this game, so long as the company 3DRealms is still up and running and the game hasn't been officially shelved, I don't see how Take 2 has a legal leg to stand on.

[dumbdude]

lets stop all the rumors also it doesn't help anything

[jaimie10]

Originally Posted by RuskiSnajper.

QFT

Indeed I don't like the fact that some who only come here to say "it's over ,dnf is dead ,..." and that kind of crap.

These people aren't trolling they are just disappointed fans speaking their minds and in my opinion being very realistic about DNF. I think it's obvious now that the game was far from done, if it was 90% done and the games release imminent then 3DR would have received funding, period. I think T2 realised that GB and 3DR had been pulling the wool over their eyes and pulled the pin. Now with an impending court case, DNF will definitely be put on hold whilst the case is running. So realistically I would say that even if the can get back on track with DNF, we're looking at a 2011 release.

---------- Post added at 07:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 PM ----------

Actually just read this :

Take-Two expects to go to trial no earlier than 9-12 months.

So we're looking at mid 2010 that this goes to trial, so realistically 2011/2012 I reckon before we will see DNF.

But part of me is starting to smell a rat and am thinking this could be an elaborate hoax.

[Crosma]

Originally Posted by jaimie10

So we're looking at mid 2010 that this goes to trial, so realistically 2011/2012 I reckon before we will see DNF.

You're clearly not basing 2011/2012 on any logical argument here. They don't have any money or developers.

[jaimie10]

Originally Posted by Crosma

You're clearly not basing 2011/2012 on any logical argument here. They don't have any money or developers.

Well yeah, I mean IF they received funding and IF they had their developers return then earliest would be 2011. Without either of these then yeah, 2012+.

[Private420]

Originally Posted by dumbdude

Ok people lets STOP all this negativity. BE POSITIVE!!!!!
and dont always asume the worst..... hey who know what might happen...

Also can we please stop with all the rumors its not helping anything either.

Thank You

It is the internet last place on earth I would expect to find compassion or caring just conspiracy theorys and ludicrousness. Maybe something good will come of all this though.... wait for a smart ass comment to pop up below this I know one is coming.

[Alhexx]

Originally Posted by jaimie10

I think it's obvious now that the game was far from done, if it was 90% done and the games release imminent then 3DR would have received funding, period.

I think that's far from being obvious. See my post here.

[jaimie10]

Originally Posted by Alhexx

I think that's far from being obvious. See my post here.

Ok you made some valid points, but at the end of the day we are looking at a mid 2010 court date, so it's a moot point whether it's 90% done or 60% done. Even if (and thats a bif if) it was 90% done, the remaining 10% could only be developed once the court case is finaliased say late 2010. So we're looking at very earliest 2011. Which is just f**g ridiculous. I mean people have been debating furiously these past few weeks since it was announced 3DR had let the DNF team go, but noone really seems to be addressing the issue of how much of a delay the court case is going to cause. 2011/2012, do we really care any more if it's that long till we see him?

[SplatterHappy]

Originally Posted by jaimie10

Ok you made some valid points, but at the end of the day we are looking at a mid 2010 court date, so it's a moot point whether it's 90% done or 60% done. Even if (and thats a bif if) it was 90% done, the remaining 10% could only be developed once the court case is finaliased say late 2010. So we're looking at very earliest 2011. Which is just f**g ridiculous. I mean people have been debating furiously these past few weeks since it was announced 3DR had let the DNF team go, but noone really seems to be addressing the issue of how much of a delay the court case is going to cause. 2011/2012, do we really care any more if it's that long till we see him?

The judge already denied the initial injunction that Take Two was seeking to freeze the game assets, and though there is no guarantee that he won't reverse that decision and grant it if the prosecution makes a better case for it, at this point there is nothing (beyond funding issues) to prevent 3DR from working on the game. If they aren't granted the injunction, development could conceivably be carried on the whole time the case is in court.

Although, with George's latest message on Twitter, I doubt much of anything is getting done right now..
Then again, it is Sunday.. oh well.

http://twitter.com/georgeb3dr

[fast-1]

See the judge is good one . So keep and stay positive.

[walker4409]

Stay positive and wait another 12 years? Some guys have gone crazy here, no wonder after being f** for 12 years

[Angelo86]

Originally Posted by jet jaguar 2.0

'Why the hate?'

Are you trying to be funny? We wait 12 years, many fans defending 3DR and GB through thick and thin, and this is the way it ends? How else do you expect fans to react? If GB doesn't come out and offer SOMETHING(an apology, a thank you, SOMETHING!) I will lose what little respect I had for him before this latest DNF debacle. I don't care what he's going through, the fans that have followed and supported 3DR deserve something approaching an explanation or at the very least a conclusion. Oh yeah wait I forgot, 3DR doesn't owe anyone anything.

I agree 100%

[Rapture_Rising]

If 3DR has cancelled DNF, it would be the final nail the provebial coffin, With every delay that had been announced, has damaged their reputation as a serious game developer. the only reprieve for 3DR will either be an official announcement on the status of the game or cutting a demo as a kinda thank you present for waiting so long.

just use that level as seen on the Jace Hall Show as it seemed finished and playable (or it was a knock up like their earlier trailers).

And why the hate - we have been optimistic for 12 years now and now its kinda hard to keep defending GB and others for such poor time management.

[Ironside]

Imagine how many suckers George and Scott are ripping off right now, I remember so lame ass idea that us forum members send them 50 bucks each

How about a Money Bomb to Help Save DNF as Jobivan and I are proposing:

100,000 Duke fans give $50 to George to finish DNF and in exchange we get a free copy of DNF before release, and bonus stuff right after DNF has sold well and gone gold...

Poor bastards probably gave all their money privately to jabba the never ending money pit.

[alex d]

And did they really ever scrap the content completely ? I saw a minecart ride in the 98 trailer, I saw one in the 2001 trailer and there's also one in the 2009 demo reel. Las Vegas, Hoover Dam, the desert - most areas seem to have remained the same.
Excuses, only excuses...

You're clearly missing the meaning of "content." Content means the physical assets used for the game, not ideas or plans. The Quake Engine version, the 2001 Unreal engine version and the latest version were all the same "game" in terms of storyline, locations and general design as is plainly obvious from similar environments appearing in the footage of each version. However, it is also plainly obvious that 100% of the content is completely different in each trailer.

They've been trying to make the same game for the past 12 years, but they have had to completely restarted the production side with each engine change, no doubt even going over some of the pre-production side again with new concept art and revising the story and other ideas to fit the technology and fix problems they previously ran into.

I can understand people being disappointed and frustrated over this whole fiasco, but I can't understand how people come to the conclusion that 3DR and GB have been out right lying to the fans and doing all they can to piss us off, especially when such broken logic is used like "There's a mine in all three videos so they lied about scrapping all the game's content." But then again, everyone is an arm chair expert about games development.

[Waiter]

Originally Posted by dumbdude

lets stop all the rumors also it doesn't help anything

Rumors is a natural result of people being left in the dark wondering wtf is going on with only with their own and other people's wild guesses to cling to.

We are brought up with the idea that If it's true, this is where you'll hear it first. Instead these forums and the 3DR main page has turned into possibly the last place information ever reaches whenever something important happens. All the real information for the past years apart from the chrismas video have popped up in other places and then possibly confirmed in here. As a natural result, people are digging wherever they can for new info to discuss, including sad, desperate attempts to find hidden meanings in George's one line twitters on completely different subjects.

Hate is not an issue, but like so many already said, there are many people in here who have spent years on this forum, sticking to 3DR through thick and thin (with or without criticism) and being told to believe NOTHING that we don't hear directly from 3DR. At the same time, NOTHING is exactly what we get directly from 3DR ... and NOTHING is a very difficult thing to believe in.

I think most people in here would have full understanding for the lack of information because of the ongoing lawsuit if they would at least feel acknowleged by 3DR. No cake or pie, no special information, just a simple Hello World now and then to say that they know that the fans are still here. Perhaps even a small sign of appreciation.

People feel neglected and ignored and that's the reason for their frustration.

[MrBlackCat]

Originally Posted by Waiter

....snip.... People feel neglected and ignored and that's the reason for their frustration.

I agree with this... so simple, but really sums a lot here.
I think many of us like the original creator of this thread are unhappy with how this frustration is being presented on the forums more-so than that it exists or why. Generally I don't believe it wise to tell others how they should feel about anything. How you feel about something and your reactions to those feelings is a choice however. I see this thread as a reaction to some of the poor choices of angry/frustrated forum users.

My own take on the matter is this...
One possibility is that there is nothing to say from 3DRealms... maybe they don't know what they are going to do, no plan etc. Everything would be speculation.

Another would be... have you seen one happens when one shred of information, from thumbnail picture to a twitter quote is posted by someone "high up" at 3D Realms? It used to be Joe S spending days doing "damage control" from any such material. All the long term members know exactly what I mean.
Maybe they would rather not even deal with that on the board right now. I would not blame them.

Another possibility... what if they DO know and DNF is actually not to be completed? Can you imagine the fallout from that after all the years of rather sharply pushing WID to the fans?
The potential DNF Sales Base might be a lot smaller than the Forum Fan Base, but I believe the Forum Fan Base is probably a pretty valuable asset as a representation of the opinions of the Sales Base... for use as a sounding board.

If DNF was known to be over, what impact do you think it would have on this Forum? (rhetorical) I think it would be pretty high impact.

I am not even going to start speculating... I will leave that to the many others here who have been doing it so well for many weeks now.

Hate might be a bit harsh or maybe just inaccurate to sum things up here, but there is reason for some level of frustration relative to the path of DNF I believe... but how that frustration comes out of a given individual is the part I have a problem with.

MrBlackCat

[Wamplet]

Originally Posted by Waiter

We are brought up with the idea that If it's true, this is where you'll hear it first. Instead these forums and the 3DR main page has turned into possibly the last place information ever reaches whenever something important happens. All the real information for the past years apart from the chrismas video have popped up in other places and then possibly confirmed in here. As a natural result, people are digging wherever they can for new info to discuss, including sad, desperate attempts to find hidden meanings in George's one line twitters on completely different subjects.

Dear Waiter, it was a good thing i continued reading, because i was about to scold you by saying if it's true, it's posted at shacknews first.

Hate is not an issue, but like so many already said, there are many people in here who have spent years on this forum, sticking to 3DR through thick and thin (with or without criticism) and being told to believe NOTHING that we don't hear directly from 3DR. At the same time, NOTHING is exactly what we get directly from 3DR ... and NOTHING is a very difficult thing to believe in.

your prose is quite commendable and as a gentleman, i must offer you my full agreement.

I think most people in here would have full understanding for the lack of information because of the ongoing lawsuit if they would at least feel acknowleged by 3DR. No cake or pie, no special information, just a simple Hello World now and then to say that they know that the fans are still here. Perhaps even a small sign of appreciation.

People feel neglected and ignored and that's the reason for their frustration.

Outside of the team photo that was posted on the main site, there hasn't been much going on.

All is quiet even on the shacknews front and now it makes you wonder if george is silent because he can't expose he can win the case against Take Two or if there really is a legit reason for Take Two to win the case and him posting anything will just help him lose the case.

Let the second guessing begin! \o

Hate might be a bit harsh or maybe just inaccurate to sum things up here, but there is reason for some level of frustration relative to the path of DNF I believe... but how that frustration comes out of a given individual is the part I have a problem with.

Other than someone foolishly preordering the game no one here really has a stake in any of this.

When i first started posting here, it wasn't even because of DNF. When months and years went by, it was already obvious the game outlived it's chance to truly be the game i have seen so many people post here wanting it to be. They had a pretty good window to release it way back, when FPS games were really starting to come into their own. Now that it has passed, I think the franchise is/was doomed to fail. Unreal, Doom, Halo, Call of Duty and several other franchises have come and continued to cash in, while there is no ongoing Duke franchise. No, mobile phone games, or tiny console ports don't count in that. Like they are really going to make a killing with that.

I personally think the company just spread itself too thin and spent more time focusing on creating and selling off franchises, like Max Payne and Prey. I don't really know if they sold off the Prey franchise. Wiki shows it being managed by Scott's branding company and developed by a 3rd party. In any case, I think 3dr took the wrong business route. id(Doom) and Epic(Unreal) created game engines and stuck with a game series with them, but also are 2 of the biggest players out there with licensing, which is where 3DR should have gone.

Hindsight, i know, but look at Prey and DNF. They wasted so much time on engine(s) that weren't theirs, reinventing a wheel that was already made.

[ReadOnly]

I think a period of 98-99 was the turning point. They were the AAA developer on E3. But both of theirs highly anticipated in-house projects hit the wall. If Max Payne didn't became a hit they would probably be dead/bought by 2001. But they had their second chance despite ruining two in-house projects. Yet still they couldn't learn from their mistakes.

Really, they could have been among id, Valve, Epic, but instead they became the laughing stock. Duke3d was the 3DR's Half-Life(sorry for anachronism), but with more potentian since it had a fantastic character. Yet they've ruined this character. Though, he somehow managed to be on his own all this time, but without DNF in the future there is little possibility he will ever live up to the potential he might have.

[Waiter]

Originally Posted by Wamplet

Outside of the team photo that was posted on the main site, there hasn't been much going on.

Which means that the only official comment posted anywhere on this site on the matter is "Goodbye"...

All is quiet even on the shacknews front and now it makes you wonder if george is silent because he can't expose he can win the case against Take Two or if there really is a legit reason for Take Two to win the case and him posting anything will just help him lose the case.

This is what I mean that most people here would understand. I have no problems with lack of information as I understand that it can be sensitive to the lawsuit. What I'm missing is a sense that 3DR even knows and gives a damn about having a forum full of fans. On the other hand, George and Scott have never really had much connection to the forums. Instead Joe has been the umbilical cord between the company and the forum and with him gone (as a representative, that is) it becomes obvious to the fans how little the forums and its members actually seem to matter to 3DR.

When i first started posting here, it wasn't even because of DNF.

Well I started here because of DNF but I very quickly got tired of the DNF forums and spent my active years in the GM section, checking out the DNF area every now and then. For me too, the forums have been a nice place to hang out in it's own right because of the people posting and moderating. DNF has been a side issue to check up on every 6 months. I never actually cared much until recently around christmas when new material started to pop up and I really started to believe for the first time in years that I would actually see the game released.

Hindsight, i know, but look at Prey and DNF. They wasted so much time on engine(s) that weren't theirs, reinventing a wheel that was already made.

Possibly very right. Just modifying and keeping a gfx engine up to date will be a full time occupation with the present speed of things for a small development team. But like you say, it's easy to say now in retrospect, and as I personally have neither insight in the workings of 3DR nor in game developing in general, I should probably stfu...

[T.Mani]

Originally Posted by jet jaguar 2.0

If GB doesn't come out and offer SOMETHING(an apology, a thank you, SOMETHING!) I will lose what little respect I had for him before this latest DNF debacle.

Yea... he probebly cares alot about what you think...

To him you are just another whiner on the forums. He might even not read it. But if he does, he probebly *yawns*, *farts* and gets on with his day and forget about anything he red the same second he closes this window.

You and I just wasted a minute of our life typing something that no one cares about. Yay...

[Wamplet]

Originally Posted by Waiter

Which means that the only official comment posted anywhere on this site on the matter is "Goodbye"...

It was by Joe, though, and I think everyone is wanting to hear a little more than that.

[marioman360]

I'd agree that positivity is golden at this point but 12-13 years of waiting can build up some negativity in a person.