DEATHWALK nonsense!!!

[CameO73]

After reading this thread, I can only conclude that it's not really the Deathwalking that bothers some, but more the difficulty of the game. So the argument simple could have ended with this remark from George:

In hindsight, we should have allowed a slider to core players could make the dynamic difficulty system harder. That was an oversight.

[0marTheZealot]

Originally Posted by CameO73

After reading this thread, I can only conclude that it's not really the Deathwalking that bothers some, but more the difficulty of the game. So the argument simple could have ended with this remark from George:

well, that changes nothing with deathwalk being such an overwhelming disadvantage. Every room could have a thousand enemies and you'll still be able to win by standing still and holding down the mouse button. The real problem is that deathwalk has zero penalty; in fact, it rewards you . It should have given you a 15-20% death penalty in health that can only be made up by killing enemies or something to that effect. Or maybe once or twice per level. Something to make death not a reward.

[MegaMustaine]

Omar the problem with the levels, and it seems to be inherent with most fps these days is that they are very linear. Sure they can make something interesting, but to me the design sucks if it is a simple point a to b that you are guided on. No wondering, no finding things, just a to b. I think the problem lies in the fact that door key type games are gone. With this system exploration was required and you were not just lead to the key. Sure it was still linear in the point that you had to go through certain doors, but there were mazes, dead ends, and in my opinion level design that took thought. Just look at Duke 3d and Blood to see what I am referencing. Totally different from Prey and alot of todays FPS IMHO. This is why I just can't play them, and i am hoping that duke brings this type of fresh level design back. Less story oriented and more game oriented, that is the way it ought to be.

I appreciate deathwalk very much, espessially in cherokee mode.

-Maniac

[CameO73]

Something to make death not a reward.

I don't see Deathwalk as a reward, more like a safety net.

I think it all comes down to what you expect in a game. I want to advance to see the story unfold (and to see what cool stuff lies ahead of me!). For me, it's not as much about not getting killed, but more about having fun with the game.

@MegaMustaine: I don't really miss the door-key-door-key-door-key games that much. Yes, the exploring could be fun... but also very boring after a while. Backtracking entire levels just for a key isn't that much fun

[Draco]

Originally Posted by Razamanaz

Doesn't the fact that you die a lot indicates that game is not that easy?

The fact that you die a lot is irrelevent - within a couple seconds, you're returned to the exact same place, with a half-full health bar, as if nothing happened.

Run into area, blasting away. Die. Jump into DeathWalk hole as soon as you get there, return to the exact same place you were, with half health. Continue blasting away. Repeat with eyes closed. (or diverged so that my left eye was looking at the screen, but my right eye was looking at the mouse to my right).

Originally Posted by George Broussard

If you dislike DeathWalk, don't use it When you die, press F9 to load your last saved game. Done

Why would I need to reload? The game is providing me with invulnerability the whole way through.

Can you honestly claim that the player's health is of any relevency to game? Can you tell me any functional, salient different between Deathwalk and me binding a key to "set player's health to half"? 'You lose a second' is not a salient difference.

Possible ways to fix deathwalk:

1) There's a 1-2 minute no-deathWalk situation after you return from deathwalk. You still get that 'safety net', but you can't rely on just coming back any old time.

2) Certain areas (like, bosses) have no-deathwalk situations.

3) If someone deathwalks, return them to the latest autosave (similar to when you die in a craft, and you're not close enough to the End Station - you'll teleport back to the Start Station). The game autosaves fairly regularly, so its not as if you're missing anything.

4) As difficulty level goes up, more areas are non-deathwalk.

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by Draco

The fact that you die a lot is irrelevent - within a couple seconds, you're returned to the exact same place, with a half-full health bar, as if nothing happened.

Not in the vehciles, they drop you right back where the thing started.

[0marTheZealot]

Originally Posted by MegaMustaine

Omar the problem with the levels, and it seems to be inherent with most fps these days is that they are very linear. Sure they can make something interesting, but to me the design sucks if it is a simple point a to b that you are guided on. No wondering, no finding things, just a to b. I think the problem lies in the fact that door key type games are gone. With this system exploration was required and you were not just lead to the key. Sure it was still linear in the point that you had to go through certain doors, but there were mazes, dead ends, and in my opinion level design that took thought. Just look at Duke 3d and Blood to see what I am referencing. Totally different from Prey and alot of todays FPS IMHO. This is why I just can't play them, and i am hoping that duke brings this type of fresh level design back. Less story oriented and more game oriented, that is the way it ought to be.

True, but the cost of producing high level content in such a sprawling level design is prohibitively expensive. If you have something cool/sweet in one path, you need something equally as cool in the second. This is why most games are very linear. The best we can hope for is something like HL2's Highway 17/Sandtraps levels. It's still linear, but there's a shitload of optional content to go see and explore.

I definately would not mind seeing the sprawling levels back in Doom2, Quake, Duke3D though. But it's tough nowadays, and we all have to mindful of that.

Posted by CameO73
I don't see Deathwalk as a reward, more like a safety net.

I think it all comes down to what you expect in a game. I want to advance to see the story unfold (and to see what cool stuff lies ahead of me!). For me, it's not as much about not getting killed, but more about having fun with the game.

@MegaMustaine: I don't really miss the door-key-door-key-door-key games that much. Yes, the exploring could be fun... but also very boring after a while. Backtracking entire levels just for a key isn't that much fun

Well, deathwalk is a reward. Enemies ignore you for 2-3 seconds and you come back with a minimum of half health and half spirit. I expect the same things you do, but a challenge or sense of accomplishment needs to remain as well. Otherwise, we might as well give players infinite health, infinite ammo, auto-aim and 1 hp enemies if all game designers expect them to do is to complete the game and soak in the story.

[elsenator]

Originally Posted by Draco

Yet, you did so, by not showing me any consequences of death in Prey.

No, i did not concede, by not telling you any consequences. You want consequences? Then hit F9 when you die. End of story.

[Nathrak]

So uh.. am I the only one who noticed that bosses regain some health when deathwalking?

I remember one time fighting
Spoiler:

show spoiler

the first female boss

And even though it couldn't regenerate health from the two things it sent out anymore as I destroyed them, it killed me when it was near-death. I deathwalked, came back, it was up to almost half health again.

This happened on regular and Cherokee difficulty if I remember correctly.

[neowert]

I love deathwalk. It actually makes death a fun and interesting part of the game. I died a lot. I like how the deathwalk changed over time. Or maybe I just noticed more. It was nice not caring about saving anymore. Saving a lot like cheating to me, but sometimes it is the only way to avoid frustration.

I dunno how you can only die twice. I guess I am not good at twitch shooter. I mostly do tactical ones.

I hope there is just an option to disable deathwalk for the core fps players in Prey 2. I would be pissed if it wasnt there because of popular opinion and not game design.

Oh yeah, does Tommy have closet full of alient weapons now?

[Twin]

Originally Posted by George Broussard

Beyond everything else, I like DeathWalk becuase it keeps you in the game and in the game's world and fiction. You aren't jerked out of it by 'dying'. That leads to a consistent experience when you are playing the game.

that's something i agree with 100%...i hate playing games where you're supposed to be some kind o superhero...or some guy that saves the world yet you die about 20 times through the story and then somehow come back alive again...

personally for me it ruins the story and feel of the game...as much as i liked max payne it was annoying to die alot through the game...

i havn't played Prey yet (buying it tomorrow ) but i think the deathwalk feature is great...it gives you the feel that, yeah, you're the hero of the story and you're not going to die because you have a cool deathwalk ability

[Noam sane?]

On so many forums the posting gamers seem to be divided between those who want only death match type game play and those who want to see increased virtual adventure and the development of true interactive fiction in the production of video games. On the rare occasions when this happens well many applaud the effort while others loudly protest. If the death match people have their way , as currently seems to be the case, the single player game and all of it's interactive story telling potential will disappear leaving only the dodge ball target practice play style that comprises the horrid on line death matches replete with inane adolescent taunts of Bevis as he "pawns" Butthead. Currently every maker of single player games seems compelled to waste resources dangling one of these stinkers like an incomplete bowel evacuation from their single player effort. This wasn't always the case, what happened?

The "death walk" mode is integrated into the plot perfectly providing the continuous game play that *should* exist in EVERY single player game as it presents the drama of a virtual adventure and story to the player on the players own terms. Only when developers abandon the idea of "death" (even one is a mark of a failed game in my opinion) as a valid device in story telling will they start to make good single player games again. "Fire fights" can be an *element* of game play but if it is allowed to define the FPS it will doom (if it hasn't already happened) the single player game to extinction in my opinion.

[Zegraphoob]

Originally Posted by sgt Boundford

Why are people under the illusion that the deathwalk makes the game easier?? If you end up having to do the deathwalk then your crap, the game IS too hard for you! WHY? because you just been killed you plebs!!

The fact I'm killed doesn't do anything to me. The fact I have to restart from the latest checkpoint does, and that's a challenge I enjoy, you pleb!

Originally Posted by George Broussard

Yeah, it's really a nonsense argument.

Do you want to see a true nonsense argument? Here is a good example:

Originally Posted by George Broussard

You can achieve the same results with lots of quick saves, even during a boss fight. If you quick save every 10 seconds, you will never lose progress in a game.

That's exactly the reason why I'm not quicksaving every 10 seconds.

The fact one could "cheat" that way doesn't justify how deathwalking basically forces the same thing on you.

Originally Posted by Orochi Avlis

I guess people resist change.

We don't resist change, we resist negative change.

Originally Posted by sgt Boundford

it seems to me that people actually want to stare at loading screens instead of continuosly being involved in the game!

Continuously stare at loading screens? Boo. It takes 2 seconds in games on the Doom 3 Engine, among other engines.

Originally Posted by George Broussard

Ultimately I think a lot of people will come to appreciate DeathWalk once they play Prey, then play their next FPS without it. I went from Prey to Sin Episodes and I loved Sin, but missed the DeathWalk I kept forgetting to quicksave and lost a fair bit of progress.

That's why games have to include autosaves. I'm currently replaying Far Cry and I'm not missing DeathWalking one bit. In fact, I'm glad the challenge is back.

Originally Posted by Razzuel

Yeah I really enjoy Deathwalk, because before I got Prey I was playing Quake 4 (since I had not completed it yet), and Quake 4 is rediculous. Quake 4 isn't that bad of a game but as I was playing I was like WTF when is this game going to end and whenever I died I had to see if I had saved earlier. If I didn't save earlier I'd get pissed off real quick, but if I did save I would think oh great I have to try and get past this crap again. So Deathwalk then became something very useful. It kept the flow of the game and allowed me to really enjoy Prey. I mean now I don't have to hit Esc and quicksave before I go through each door like I did with Quake 4 which was a pain in the ass.

Don't blame it on the game you played Quake 4 on a too high difficulty setting. Also, you don't have to hit escape if you really want to quicksave, you just hit F#. And what do you mean you wanted the game to end? Quake 4 is already a rather short game (not as short as Prey, fortunately). The only place where I missed the autosaves was at the beginning of a boss battle. Only the two last boss battles have an autosave before the battle. If the other bosses had an autosave as well it would be perfect.

Originally Posted by George Broussard

Beyond everything else, I like DeathWalk becuase it keeps you in the game and in the game's world and fiction. You aren't jerked out of it by 'dying'. That leads to a consistent experience when you are playing the game.

If anything, deathwalking made me less careful about dying, and I got sucked out of the atmosphere of the game. While in other games like Doom 3 I get sucked in the atmosphere while I'm avoiding death. You can basically say deathwalking has the opposite effect on me.

Don't understand me wrong though, I liked deathwalking in Prey, it's just not something I'd like to see becoming a standard in first person shooters. The feature, even if it's not exactly the same, fits in Prey, but nowhere else.

I was still careful not to die, but I didn't care like in other games when I died. Also, I tried to come back with as much health and spiritpower as possible, by resisting being sucked back into the hole/portal. I was thinking "Damn eh!" when I missed a bit of health of spirit power when I was sucked into the hole, which is what you guys probably wanted to achieve. Just to tell you it was not all too negative. I just don't want it to appear in other games.

Originally Posted by Komb.at

For the guys who don't like it: what's stopping you from just reloading the last savegame when you die/enter deathwalk? nothing eh? problem solved...

Originally Posted by George Broussard

If you dislike DeathWalk, don't use it When you die, press F9 to load your last saved game. Done

I don't like setting my own rules in games, especially considering the game has been balanced with deathwalking, not without it. And even if it's perfectly possible to beat without deathwalking, like I said I don't want to, the game has to set up the rules, not me.

Originally Posted by SuicideRUN

If there wasn't deathwalk, then there would be people whining that they have to redo half the level everytime they die.

That's would not be a problem with the absence of deathwalk, but with the absence of frequent autosaves like in Half-Life.

Originally Posted by Damien_Azreal

Ya know, it's sad to see everyone complaining over such a feature.

It's also sad to see people calling the other side of the debate "sad" because they don't agree.

Originally Posted by Damien_Azreal

All anyone did with games was complain that they died and had to quickload an old save, then they had to replay so much to get back to where they were.
Now, a developer comes up with a very way to get around that problem and poeople complain about that as well. Saying it makes the game to damn easy.

Ya know, there's nothing stopping you from quick saving every now and then. And when you die, hit Escape and go to the menu and reload your old save game. Simple and takes as much effort as it did in games like Doom 3 and HL2.

The people complaining about this feature are the same people complaining about Far Cry's check point save system. Either it's to hard or it's to easy.

That's why you have to balance it out, but taking two extremes isn't an argument. It's like George W. Bush his "everyone who isn't in favour of us, is against us". It's simply a false dilemma.
I didn't mind it in Far Cry, but many others did, so you still take an extreme, instead of a balanced average, like Half-Life, which has frequent autosaves.

Originally Posted by Damien_Azreal

And how do you get consequences of death in a game that you can quick save every ten seconds?

By relying on the autosaves, and not half-cheating by quicksaving after every enemy or 10 seconds. Then you have consequences.

Originally Posted by Damien_Azreal

Discussing "consequences" of death in a video game? This isn't real people... so death in any game is pretty much without consequence.

We are talking about consequences within the game, not for the player in real life, OBVIOUSLY.
Sure, having to redo a section is a consequence.

Originally Posted by d3ad connection

Could a mod lock this? It's not going to change anytime soon.

What would a forum be without debates, and people disagreeing with each other?

[d3ad connection]

:O Wow. Long post.

I don't think this debate will go anywhere. There's no point in doing it... Prey is a game for storytelling, and having fun, not challenge(well, the puzzles were a challenge). If you don't like it, well, sorry.

[Zegraphoob]

Originally Posted by d3ad connection

:O Wow. Long post.

Actually, it looks long, but most of the space goes to quotes.
I only added one or two lines of my own, so it did not take me as much as it looks.

Originally Posted by d3ad connection

I don't think this debate will go anywhere. There's no point in doing it...

Actually, I like getting counter-arguments, so I can see where I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by d3ad connection

Prey is a game for storytelling, and having fun, not challenge(well, the puzzles were a challenge). If you don't like it, well, sorry.

Well, other games have a challenge as well, while still being fun and having storytelling. I didn't think the puzzles were particularly challenging as well, there is much wasted potential in that regard.

Having to restart from the latest checkpoint is a challenge I enjoy.

The option is, as previously stated, there at your disposal.

Having to redo a section is a consequence.

Not to mention an annoyance. How about jumping around in the spirit realm and shooting stuff -- isn't that a consequence as well, if I, like, don't want to?

The fact that you die a lot is irrelevent - within a couple seconds, you're returned to the exact same place, with a half-full health bar, as if nothing happened

Like standard fps death, minus replaying the harmless sections where you don't die. Gamedeath overall is irrelevant.

Why would I need to reload? The game is providing me with invulnerability the whole way through.

"- Yeah, unless someone drags me out of bed, I just stay asleep for weeks." You want challenge, use reload -- simple. Show what a decisive man you can be.

Can you honestly claim that the player's health is of any relevency to game?

What game? Any game? Not really; ifHealth=0 {addFlag PlayerIsDead};

Can you tell me any functional, salient different between Deathwalk and me binding a key to "set player's health to half"?

An extra key, for one.

To people that say that you should reload if you die if you don't like it. We shouldn't have to make the game artificially harder to play it.

You don't. That's options for you. How's that?

[bummerman]

It's also a good opportunity to practice your aim for "Spirit Walk" in MP. I noticed mine improve a bunch yesterday.

[Zegraphoob]

Originally Posted by St. Toxic

The option is, as previously stated, there at your disposal.

Is that one directed to me? Because I didn't literally say that. No one else did either.
If it's directed to me, I have an argument against it, look at my second post above this post.

Originally Posted by St. Toxic

Not to mention an annoyance. How about jumping around in the spirit realm and shooting stuff -- isn't that a consequence as well, if I, like, don't want to?

Yes, but it's nothing compared to having to restart from the latest autosave. You don't even have to do anything in deathwalking. Waiting 5 seconds does the trick. With deathwalking, you don't even have to win battles, you can continue where you left off. With autosaves, you have to win the whole battle. This is what we mean when we say "challenge is lost".

[d3ad connection]

We are never going to resolve this...

[Draco]

{Dying is a consequence}... Not to mention an annoyance.

It does annoy you. That way, when you return to that area, you don't do the same thing again. You die, you do something different. In Prey, there's no need to do anything different. You're always rewarded. I know, you like playing FPSes in Invulnerability mode, but I perfer to be tested.

Like standard fps death

Doesn't exist in Prey.

You want challenge, use reload -- simple. Show what a decisive man you can be.

I state again - why would I need to reload? Reloading is for when I die, an impossibility in Prey.

What game?

This one. I know you're just trolling.

We are never going to resolve this...

That's very true. Thankfully, Tommy's Deathwalk is going to have the same fate as that other game with a guy that can't die...

I see nobody has tried to show me a salient consequence of losing all your health in Prey.

[d3ad connection]

Thing is, it's just a game and I think we're all taking this too seriously. It is not going to change anytime soon.

[Mannak]

post deleted

[Mannak]

I just thinking about it.....The Cherokie Nation would have kicked the white man's ass if they all had Deathwalks....

[OnyxBMW]

Originally Posted by Mannak

I just thinking about it.....The Cherokie Nation would have kicked the white man's ass if they all had Deathwalks....

Any one person could destroy the world if they had deathwalk.

[CrimsonHead]

Has deathwalk actually changed how some of us play or something? I know I'm still playing the same, I still try not to die.

[Zegraphoob]

Originally Posted by d3ad connection

Thing is, it's just a game and I think we're all taking this too seriously. It is not going to change anytime soon.

We are not taking this too seriously. If developers think all of us love deathwalk, it would soon be the standard in all first person shooters, and there goes our hobby.

Originally Posted by CrimsonHead

Has deathwalk actually changed how some of us play or something? I know I'm still playing the same, I still try not to die.

I try not to die as well, but not to the extend I do in other games. I dare to confront snipers in a more direct way rather than taking cover. And when I die, I don't care, since I don't have to redo the battle, which takes away the challenge.

Originally Posted by OnyxBMW

Any one person could destroy the world if they had deathwalk.

Except when they captured him and buried him alive three kilometers under the ground.

[Aegeri]

1) There's a 1-2 minute no-deathWalk situation after you return from deathwalk. You still get that 'safety net', but you can't rely on just coming back any old time.

2) Certain areas (like, bosses) have no-deathwalk situations.

3) If someone deathwalks, return them to the latest autosave (similar to when you die in a craft, and you're not close enough to the End Station - you'll teleport back to the Start Station). The game autosaves fairly regularly, so its not as if you're missing anything.

4) As difficulty level goes up, more areas are non-deathwalk.

1, 2 and 4 are particularly good. I'm not too keen on 3 though, but the other solutions would all work really well.

[Zegraphoob]

1 will lead to frustration because the solution will be to wait two minutes before you progress, which is not fun. 2 is good but there has to be a way to know whether you can deathwalk in the current area or not, and there has to be something in the story to justify it (so it makes sense you can not deathwalk in certain areas). 3 is usless since the enemies don't revive. 4 is good, same remark as 2, but there have to be more difficulty settings then (which are available from the beginning)

[Levelord]

I'd like to add a "whatever". Deathwalk or not, Prey is a really good game.

[neowert]

I liked prey for the amazing environment, story, fighting, and creatures. I like how deathwalk integrates death into the game. I am also really glad it was there. There were two parts in the game where I just got my ass handed to me.

[spoiler]
(The bossfight with Jen, and at the beginning of facing the enemy. I was WAY too conservative with my ammo)

[Aegeri]

You need to completely close the spoiler tag above with [/spoiler] before it will work Neo.

[Lez]

I liked death walk alot, if only to save me the hassle of reloading the game a hundred times every time I fell to my doom.

[0marTheZealot]

Originally Posted by Lez

I liked death walk alot, if only to save me the hassle of reloading the game a hundred times every time I fell to my doom.

How do you fall to your death when you can just spiritwalk to test the waters so to speak...

[Wolle]

I'm replaying Prey right now without using deathwalk and I must say I like it a lot better. I was afraid that it would be too hard since it seemed to be balanced with deathwalk in mind, but so far it is fine.

This seems like a fine option for those who don't like deathwalk.

[Haanz]

You know, there's a really simple option available here that could be easily fixed in a patch. In the options menu, give an option for "DEATHWALK" yes/no.

Personally, I like Deathwalk. I'd like to emphasize that before I continue. It was excellent for the first play through, as I didn't have to worry about my health levels (I still would try not to die very often though), and so I could concentrate on the story, puzzles and action. However, on the second playthrough, Cherokee wasn't really difficult, at all. It'd be really easy to just have an option for Deathwalk on/off though, default on. For those who want the extra challenge, it's there. But most people will experience the game it was originally intended.

It could easily be turned into a gameplay option, sorta like aim assist on the X360 version, in a patch. Oh, but when it's on, Cherokee would have to get health spores back. That'd just be crazy otherwise!

[ZaphodB]

Simplest solution if you don't like deathwalk and you just wanna wine and complain about it :

DON'T PLAY THE GAME

then you have nothing to gripe about

[oak man]

Aw man I wish I could deathwalk I guess I'll juss get prey for the xbox
*heavy sigh*

[Frogacuda]

Originally Posted by George Broussard

Yeah, it's really a nonsense argument.

You can achieve the same results with lots of quick saves, even during a boss fight. If you quick save every 10 seconds, you will never lose progress in a game.

This simply isn't true. Even constantly using quicksaves still forces the player to retry when he messes up. Deathwalk doesn't. Enemies don't reagain health or respawn along with Tommy. It means any chump can chisel down even the toughest boss without any skill needed. Not true of using quicksaves.

Let's put it this way, George. What would require more effort: Trying to beat contra with save states/quicksaves or trying to beat it with infinite lives so you never lost any progress at all? See my point?

but then again, most people are frustrated by really hard or complex bosses.

I've said it before, but I'll reiterate again: finding the right amount of frustration is the key to good game design. Too much is a bad thing and can discourage the player because he doesn't feel the goal is within his reach. But too little will diminish the player's sense of accomplishment when he's completed a goal. He needs to feel like he's acheived something, and in order to do that he has to be challenged.

[d3ad connection]

Originally Posted by ZaphodB

Simplest solution if you don't like deathwalk and you just wanna wine and complain about it :

DON'T PLAY THE GAME

then you have nothing to gripe about

I agree.