Problems with mirrors.

Acleacius · 10-17-2003, 10:15 AM

Cant seem to get mirrors to work though my system is cappable, at least it should be.
P4 2.8, TI4600, I have tried the 45.23 (current full release), 52.13 (newest leak) any suggestions?

Thanks for any help

SamiV · 10-17-2003, 10:36 AM

Hi!

Unfortunately the mirrors in the game require DX9 hardware, so they will not work on your TI4600.

SamiV.

Acleacius · 10-17-2003, 01:04 PM

Well this is good new that MP2 uses DX9

I havent see much info on MP2 DX9 usage are there other effect as well. or a link possibly that talks about them ?

Thanks for the Help

SamiV · 10-17-2003, 05:10 PM

We've been (intentionally) fairly silent on which PixelShader versions etc we support.

We want the game to run the with a good enough framerate, on what ever hardware the end user has.

Some very high end features (like pixel-shader-lighting on characters) are only enabled of the hardware says it supports them. Unfortunately even then sometimes the drivers just report things wrong and the game takes on a too aggressive code path. Eg, the driver says it can do a certain effect, and when we tell it to render it, it renders just fine "technically". But the end result looks wrong, such as overbright or too plastic etc.

D3D can also have "Hardware" and "Software" accelerated versions of many features... So the mirrors fall into the "If no real mirror supporting hardware, instead of using software version, we fall back to just using broken-mirror textures, since that keeps the framerate up..."

Anyway, we are working on various compatibility issues...

SamiV.

Acleacius · 10-17-2003, 05:50 PM

Thanks or you Time and Trouble

You guys should be really PROUD, CONGRATULATIONS

Vasyl · 10-17-2003, 09:53 PM

You can't render a mirror using hardware that isn't DX9? Well since a GF4 can obviously render a mirror in a DX8 based engine ... why couldn't you have just reverted to something like that?

I haven't played MP2 yet, and I'm not a 3D programming guru just yet, so I'm not sure about the weight of this issue, but it seems like it would be a fairly simple implementation to throw in ...

10-18-2003, 12:07 AM

Why can raedon 7500's use mirrors, when they don't even use DX9 features?

Acleacius · 10-18-2003, 12:21 AM

Ok ill take a shot at this, starting BT2

Ok they are probably using standard (if there is a standard ) MicroSoft DX9 shaders, which NVidia cards cant do UNLESS they are 5900, with special Driver Code written to work with MP2. If you have been paying attention with the NVidia, problems of late, NONE there Chipsets can do DX9 without special software written in the Drivers to make each game run Correctly, then only the 5900 can.

Second question, several ATI cards can run DX9 correctly, there Chipsets are native DX9, so they run them without special software.

Hope this Helps

Us NVidia owners are out of Luck

I hope to get a ATI card soon, to solve this PROBLEM

Vasyl · 10-18-2003, 08:28 AM

Right, I know the FX line has problems with DX9, but remember that the older ATI cards (8500, 7200, etc) CAN do the mirrors the right way, but they aren't DX9 class cards.

I would think that if your card isn't DX9, the game might revert to a DX8 type of deal, where pretty much all DX8 class cards are on the same page ...

It's probably not that big of an issue, but it's interesting none the less.

11-08-2003, 06:50 PM

"You can't render a mirror using hardware that isn't DX9? Well since a GF4 can obviously render a mirror in a DX8 based engine ... why couldn't you have just reverted to something like that?"

Look what he (Markus Maki) have to say about this at beyond3d forums:

"Mirrors in Max2 use hardware clipping planes. GeForce3/4 hardware support these but due to some limitations Nvidia does not expose them in new drivers. GeForceFX and all recent ATIs support these.

We could have in theory done a PCI Device/VendorID workaround that would've enabled mirrors on GeForce3/4, but basically some locations would've been too slow with anything but a Ti4600 if mirrors were enabled, thus we left it out (and it would've required a ton of validation work to cover all VendorIDs). "

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewto...=8547&start=40

Bruce Hamilton · 11-09-2003, 01:53 PM

Besides, Max isn't conceited... He doesn't need mirrors.

11-15-2003, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Hi!

Unfortunately the mirrors in the game require DX9 hardware, so they will not work on your TI4600.

SamiV.

Arghh....No....gah....! So all this while MP2 uses 100% DX9 acceleration? No, 8.1 acceleration?

Jokke_r · 11-15-2003, 02:59 AM

ok to make this clear. mirrors don't need DX9 Hardware, they need 3d cards which support pixel shader 1.4. radeon 7200 and 8500 can both do this...

some geforces like 3/4 might be able to do it but they would be too slow or the drivers wouldn't support it ins this game...

Killabilly · 11-16-2003, 05:15 PM

Argggh Geforce sucks...

11-18-2003, 02:02 AM

The Ti4600 is DX8, isn't it?

It should be able to render mirrors just fine.

I use a Radeon 8500LE, and it renders the mirrors fine.

Jeth · 11-18-2003, 08:06 AM

I play with Radeon 7000Pro 32Mt i mirrors are working perfect

echotree · 11-20-2003, 07:40 PM

I have a GEforce4 or whatever, and I just wish I could see those cool "mirror" effects I hear about...

Could be worse... I could have a card that only supported pixel shading version 1.3 (personally, I'm waiting for a video card that has version 5.82 of a technology somebody just made up)

on the same note,,, Isn't DirectX supposed to...sort of... streamline the available hardware to allow programs to execute and display faster, more efficiently, and cleanly?
Or has it become a technology deadline, at which vendors start to panic over the consumers' scrutiny of the particular version of DirectX bundled with the product? I bet the answer is: "what? No."

10-17-2003, 10:36 AM	#2
SamiV Remedy Staff	Re: Problems with mirrors. Hi! Unfortunately the mirrors in the game require DX9 hardware, so they will not work on your TI4600. SamiV.

10-17-2003, 05:10 PM	#4
SamiV Remedy Staff	Re: Problems with mirrors. We've been (intentionally) fairly silent on which PixelShader versions etc we support. We want the game to run the with a good enough framerate, on what ever hardware the end user has. Some very high end features (like pixel-shader-lighting on characters) are only enabled of the hardware says it supports them. Unfortunately even then sometimes the drivers just report things wrong and the game takes on a too aggressive code path. Eg, the driver says it can do a certain effect, and when we tell it to render it, it renders just fine "technically". But the end result looks wrong, such as overbright or too plastic etc. D3D can also have "Hardware" and "Software" accelerated versions of many features... So the mirrors fall into the "If no real mirror supporting hardware, instead of using software version, we fall back to just using broken-mirror textures, since that keeps the framerate up..." Anyway, we are working on various compatibility issues... SamiV.

10-18-2003, 12:07 AM	#7
Guest Guest	Re: Problems with mirrors. Why can raedon 7500's use mirrors, when they don't even use DX9 features?

11-08-2003, 06:50 PM	#10
Guest Guest	Re: Problems with mirrors. "You can't render a mirror using hardware that isn't DX9? Well since a GF4 can obviously render a mirror in a DX8 based engine ... why couldn't you have just reverted to something like that?" Look what he (Markus Maki) have to say about this at beyond3d forums: "Mirrors in Max2 use hardware clipping planes. GeForce3/4 hardware support these but due to some limitations Nvidia does not expose them in new drivers. GeForceFX and all recent ATIs support these. We could have in theory done a PCI Device/VendorID workaround that would've enabled mirrors on GeForce3/4, but basically some locations would've been too slow with anything but a Ti4600 if mirrors were enabled, thus we left it out (and it would've required a ton of validation work to cover all VendorIDs). " http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewto...=8547&start=40

11-18-2003, 02:02 AM	#15
Fenris Guest	Re: Problems with mirrors. The Ti4600 is DX8, isn't it? It should be able to render mirrors just fine. I use a Radeon 8500LE, and it renders the mirrors fine.

10-17-2003, 10:15 AM	#1
Acleacius	Problems with mirrors. Cant seem to get mirrors to work though my system is cappable, at least it should be. P4 2.8, TI4600, I have tried the 45.23 (current full release), 52.13 (newest leak) any suggestions? Thanks for any help

10-17-2003, 01:04 PM	#3
Acleacius	Re: Problems with mirrors. Well this is good new that MP2 uses DX9 I havent see much info on MP2 DX9 usage are there other effect as well. or a link possibly that talks about them ? Thanks for the Help

10-17-2003, 05:50 PM	#5
Acleacius	Re: Problems with mirrors. Thanks or you Time and Trouble You guys should be really PROUD, CONGRATULATIONS

10-17-2003, 09:53 PM	#6
Vasyl	Re: Problems with mirrors. You can't render a mirror using hardware that isn't DX9? Well since a GF4 can obviously render a mirror in a DX8 based engine ... why couldn't you have just reverted to something like that? I haven't played MP2 yet, and I'm not a 3D programming guru just yet, so I'm not sure about the weight of this issue, but it seems like it would be a fairly simple implementation to throw in ...

10-18-2003, 12:21 AM	#8
Acleacius	Re: Problems with mirrors. Ok ill take a shot at this, starting BT2 Ok they are probably using standard (if there is a standard ) MicroSoft DX9 shaders, which NVidia cards cant do UNLESS they are 5900, with special Driver Code written to work with MP2. If you have been paying attention with the NVidia, problems of late, NONE there Chipsets can do DX9 without special software written in the Drivers to make each game run Correctly, then only the 5900 can. Second question, several ATI cards can run DX9 correctly, there Chipsets are native DX9, so they run them without special software. Hope this Helps Us NVidia owners are out of Luck I hope to get a ATI card soon, to solve this PROBLEM

10-18-2003, 08:28 AM	#9
Vasyl	Re: Problems with mirrors. Right, I know the FX line has problems with DX9, but remember that the older ATI cards (8500, 7200, etc) CAN do the mirrors the right way, but they aren't DX9 class cards. I would think that if your card isn't DX9, the game might revert to a DX8 type of deal, where pretty much all DX8 class cards are on the same page ... It's probably not that big of an issue, but it's interesting none the less.

11-09-2003, 01:53 PM	#11
Bruce Hamilton	Re: Problems with mirrors. Besides, Max isn't conceited... He doesn't need mirrors. __________________ How do you expect anyone to remember your name, if you can't spell it right yourself, Broussard? It's basic positioning... None of that matters... It'll be done when it's done.... It's the spirit of the law, not the letter.

11-15-2003, 02:59 AM	#13
Jokke_r	Re: Problems with mirrors. ok to make this clear. mirrors don't need DX9 Hardware, they need 3d cards which support pixel shader 1.4. radeon 7200 and 8500 can both do this... some geforces like 3/4 might be able to do it but they would be too slow or the drivers wouldn't support it ins this game... __________________ I am Jack's smirking revenge.

11-16-2003, 05:15 PM	#14
Killabilly	Re: Problems with mirrors. Argggh Geforce sucks... __________________ Reality is an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol

11-18-2003, 08:06 AM	#16
Jeth	Re: Problems with mirrors. I play with Radeon 7000Pro 32Mt i mirrors are working perfect __________________ Can't wait 'till MP2

11-20-2003, 07:40 PM	#17
echotree	Re: Problems with mirrors. I have a GEforce4 or whatever, and I just wish I could see those cool "mirror" effects I hear about... Could be worse... I could have a card that only supported pixel shading version 1.3 (personally, I'm waiting for a video card that has version 5.82 of a technology somebody just made up) on the same note,,, Isn't DirectX supposed to...sort of... streamline the available hardware to allow programs to execute and display faster, more efficiently, and cleanly? Or has it become a technology deadline, at which vendors start to panic over the consumers' scrutiny of the particular version of DirectX bundled with the product? I bet the answer is: "what? No."