Why bother with Build?

[Deranged]

Just wondering why so many people still bother with build.

Is it because you can't afford something better?, or the fact that it runs ok on a 486?

I mean, lets face it, there are more superior engines that run faster on newer sytems(3D accelerated), look better, more flexible (true 3D) - easier to use (none of this teleporting water, overlapping sector, weird vertical aiming, quick-fix illusions) (eg the Quake engine has available source, tcp/ip, 3d-acceleration, easy to make mods (with quake c and other tools) Just look what Valve did with it, and Counterstrike is now the most played game and it is build on this (heavily edited) engine that we first saw the same year as duke3D. And there's the Unreal Engine... I love it.

It just seems such a waste to be putting so much effort into something that won't be appreciated much by the gaming community.

Sure I was addicted to build a few years ago too, but isn't it time to move on?

First off, I bet you smell like feet.

Secondly, BUILD is hella easy to use and it's feature packed. Scripted explosions, see thru glass, trains, and other shit you cant do in the Quake engine. It's easy to use, easy to implement your ideas, and simply charming over all.

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Television is the retina of the mind's eye. Werd.

[Deranged]

All those things are easy to do in half-life
it would hardly make up for builds disadvantages anyway, would it?
hmm..

I like BUILD better, that's why. And you still smell like feet.

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Television is the retina of the mind's eye. Werd.

[Phoenix]

Deranged, I don’t understand the question. If you no longer play with Build, why bother to tell and ask why some still do. I play with Build and UT and I need your rhetoric like a hole in the head.

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>>Hank<<

Time waits for no one...

[This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited 02-11-2001).]

[Deranged]

I was just asking - and you did read the 2nd last paragraph - right?

No need for the insults.

[Phoenix]

Not sure if it was my post or Bob’s. No insult intended, I simply expressed how I felt.
Maybe a more intellectual answer would help. When I first learned programming I used Visual Basic. You had building blocks with certain behaviors all you did is drag and drop and put in a little code here and there, and you where done. Build is a little like VB, and coincidentally the first map making platform I learned.
It's a game, we play with the toys we like, it got nothing to do with logic, well not for me. I am also into Unreal, but only for the kids not for me. Not sure if this makes any sense, but as they say: Here is my two pennies ...

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>>Hank<<

Time waits for no one...

[Theseus314]

Build is mostly dead. Move on to Unreal.

I still use Build, but it's the last engine I would ever recommend someone to use.

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"...and this one time, at band camp, we stuck this really long Voodoo5 6000..."
"All hail Theseus! w00T! w00T!" - Draco
Classical PC Gaming

[cyborg]

Originally posted by Deranged:
It just seems such a waste to be putting so much effort into something that won't be appreciated much by the gaming community.

Not everybody is making mods to be virtually sucked off by 13 year olds. Some people do it for their own pure enjoyment.
Hence none of your arguements hold there.

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Duke Nukem Resources for Totalconversions and Modifications
Mapster - The Build editor replacement - RTCM Build Game Store - Community Reviews and Interviews - Build Games List - Playing Online - Sound Card Setup - Running in Windows - Advanced Configuration

[Gloryroader]

Answer #1 as to why I still make maps in BUILD: Duke.

Until Duke Forever comes out, I'll continue to make Duke maps in BUILD. I have Unreal and UT: Game of the Year Edition (it has a couple of add-ons that are cool, I guess - but it also cost $10 less than UT)

Oh, yeah:

It just seems such a waste to be putting so much effort into something that won't be appreciated much by the gaming community.

George Broussard said in another post that last year Duke Nukem 3D made 3D Realms 7 figures in income. Sounds like this actually is something that will be appreciated much by the gaming community.

And yeah, I prefer the editing and engine capabilities of the Unreal and UT engines just like you do, but, like I said, no Duke on them yet.

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Gloryroader - Webmaster, The Gloryroad

Screw BUILD!

ROTTed is better! It's easier, and you can do stuff that you couldn't possibly do in BUILD, even with EDuke v*.*

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"Now I Got Me Finger Stuck In Me Bum!" - Benny Hill

"The essence of life is violence, from which there is no refuge." - Ernest Hemingway

[Usurper]

you can do stuff that you couldn't possibly do in BUILD, even with EDuke v*.*

Like what?

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Usurper
DN3D RTCM
The slacker has awakened!

Originally posted by Usurper:
Like what?

Moving SLANTED areas over areas, true multiple stories, simulated curved sufaces, trains, circular tunnels, etc

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"Now I Got Me Finger Stuck In Me Bum!" - Benny Hill

"The essence of life is violence, from which there is no refuge." - Ernest Hemingway

[Usurper]

>Moving SLANTED areas over areas

ROTT has sloping sprites? Neato.

>true multiple stories

With sprites, which Duke can do easy enough. Unless I missed something and ROTT actually has more than 1 sector....

>simulated curved sufaces

Cake. Split sectors. Slope 'em.

>trains

One of the staples of build.

>circular tunnels

See "simulated curved surfaces"

Well, that's one un-buildable thing at least.

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Usurper
DN3D RTCM
The slacker has awakened!

and it has more easter eggs than Duke3d. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Whats the link to that "I'M FREE!" pic?

why bother you ask? It's fun to make levels with that engine, that's why we bother.

I personally think that Build is great for those who find pleasure in the process of creating, and not about finding the fastest and easiest way to get it done.I also think its bad thing to smell like feet. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[cyborg]

Erm, Build is the fastest and easiest way to get things done - no other engine has such ease of use in an editor because basically they can't.
Any engine which has BSP portions cannot have an editor which reflects the game in real time like Build - so that rules out the most popular engines Quake and Unreal - even though Unreal does use some portal technologies.
No one seems to be interested in making a purely portal driven engine like Build - despite the obvious advantages it brings (let's not even meantion Prey - it doesn't count).

[Carger2000]

Why bother? Because (in my opinion) Build is
the most easy, best and most fun 3D game
editor available..
After working ,like, 4 years with BUILD
for Duke3d and SW, I recently got a new PC
to 'Go worldcraft'. To give you a view of
the situation, I have touched WorldCraft
just a few times and started installing BUILD again after a few days...
BUILD = Heaven (For me that is)

Why Build?

I've played many of the latest 'high-tech' games UT, Q3A, Q1/2, Sin etc. I love UT. Still, in terms of fun _gameplay_ Build engine games like Blood and Shadow Warrior do it for me.

There are some levels in SW for example that would probably be impossible to create in Quake type games.

The levels of interactivity and fun in Build games is, I personally believe, yet to be rivalled in other games.

Tony

Why bother with Build? Simply because you'll enjoy much more making a mod for it than for Quake1 - And hell, with a correct level design, you can make it look even better than Quake1 (not better than Half-Life though). Duke is the only game in which a person can make a full mod alone - it's just easy to use and enjoyable. Graphics are not all.

[Mblackwell]

[img]smilies/mryuck.gif[/img]
When I first started with Build, I stumbled to learn the ropes. I ended up reading the official level editing book, blah blah blah. It ended up easy to use and create simple things. More complex things did take time, but not much.

Then I read about UnrealEd. I mostly bought Unreal it for UnrealEd in fact. I read everything I could about it, and as soon as I got it I could already go at it. So I after figuring out afew things you can't get from just reading, I began a project. I had a large outdoor area, and began building a waterfall stream and pool. You started at the top of the waterfall, with a stream behind you (the source of the fall). While constructing this I went back to Build and said, "How the hell did I ever do anything with this???"

Now the trouble starts. I kept getting this weird leek in the falls, and the more things I did to fix it, the more errors were caused. Eventually I had to start over. So I did it. 3 times. D****T IT WAS SO EASY TO DO IN BUILD. The fact that I had had many wierd errors in Build is there, but I've always been able to recover things. Never was I so outraged, it took so much time to do everything even up to the error point. The only advantage presented by these editors was the ability to have angled objects on the wall. Now, this can be emulated through the "sprite voxel" "effect", though it's hell to do. But I can live without. I just be creative and find ways around things. Seen the shots of my "hive" from Aliens TC? very detailed and curvey, etc... yet I did it with Build. Like I said, be creative. Of course, with Eduke you can start conning out some of the limitations. [img]smilies/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[CDC Mainframe]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Just wondering why so many people still bother with build.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because it is a great hobby. And for some of us, it's an affordable introduction to game programming using existing tools. The interface is simple to use and understand, and you don't need an expensive computer or degree in programming to use it.

Level design can be fun and can teach you some valuable skills. Such as planning a level before you build it! I have been guilty of never planning a level before I build it, so I have never been able to publish a complete one yet! The first step in game design is planning, then working that plan.

I am looking forward to playing new single player levels, and finishing my own.

Build rocks!

I like BUILD, when U use it, you feel in the oldies, of course, I don't like the slow systems os 486,286.... But U miss a little, isn't it? You must not underestimate the old programs, persons, computer, whatever...
Do U like Ms-DOS, I love it, my computer never "locked" in DOS, but in Windows....
Understand?

[Lucky]

Why use BUILD?

Well it's hard making a TC for a game without using its engine :P

[Mblackwell]

Another big reason I use build is speed. It's damn fast on most machines, and if it's not fast it tends towards a consistant framerate. Even with a s**tload of effects and enemies onscreen. And with Eduke 2.1 you can basically hi-res everything and smooth out the weapons animations. I've seen levels that look as good as Half-Life or better, and with the new abilities presented in Eduke even better graphical looks can be achieved... yet it retains the speed.

Also, it's pretty damn easy to go in, add new art, build a map, and make a new actor. You can just go in there plunking away without much effort. It's really hard to get the same results QUICKLY with UnrealEd and World-Builder and the like.

[ 06-18-2001: Message edited by: Mblackwell ]

Er... maybe because we like the game itself, and Build is the only practical editor for it. [img]smilies/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Phoenix]

Actually Mapster is more practical to use. [img]smilies/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[Bruce Hamilton]

I'd be a lot more impressed with Mapster if it weren't still in beta with no updates over the last five months. We'll probably never see a version 1.0 release.

[cyborg]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruce Hamilton:
I'd be a lot more impressed with Mapster if it weren't still in beta with no updates over the last five months. We'll probably never see a version 1.0 release.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Technically it could never come out of beta stage. The idea that the naming convention given to it would sway your opinion of it is ludicrous. There will be no futher update until the next release of Eduke.

[Bruce Hamilton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The idea that the naming convention given to it would sway your opinion of it is ludicrous.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I could care less what you call it, just finish it and get it out of beta stage. Mapster is currently more crash prone than build.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>There will be no futher update until the next release of Eduke.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Eduke uses a modified version of makemap from Redneck Rampage.

[Mblackwell]

but eduke also increases and changes alot in duke itself. So it's important the the editor have the ability to reflect those new features. Mapster will soon become the standard for building maps for Eduke. [img]smilies/mryuck.gif[/img]

[cyborg]

Ye ghads stop arguing - I know this situation far better than you do.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I could care less what you call it, just finish it and get it out of beta stage. Mapster is currently more crash prone than build.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It tends to use more memory and has different base code to Build but on the whole I find that once I get it going it doesn't crash.
Also the concept that it won't ever be finished and is simply a user product that people are lucky to have it exist is obviously lost on you.
There is no definitive end product that is being aimed for.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Eduke uses a modified version of makemap from Redneck Rampage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Christ. I know this. And so does TX - because he supplied it. Matteus wanted an updated version of the build editor and mapster didn't exist at the time.

Now stop your whining.

I use Mapster 0.27B and it never crashed my computer more times than Build did.

[Bruce Hamilton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Also the concept that it won't ever be finished and is simply a user product that people are lucky to have it exist is obviously lost on you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Most software available won't ever be "finished", that's why they release new versions. The difference is they generally release the beta version to their testers, not the general public. As for being lucky to have it, woohoo! I see no benefit in being one of your beta testers.

[cyborg]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As for being lucky to have it, woohoo! I see no benefit in being one of your beta testers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stop being so dense. It's a convention. You are reading far too much into it still.

Ugh. Idiot.

[NutWrench]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The idea that the naming convention given to it would sway your opinion of it is ludicrous.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? Isn't it common practice to give sequentially higher numbers to a program each time a new version is released?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>There is no definitive end product that is being aimed for.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Way to promote your product! Come on, you can do better than that!
Try calling it "Flubber" or something. It worked for the Nutty Professor™. [img]smilies/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[cyborg]

Ugh. Loaf boy enters.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why? Isn't it common practice to give sequentially higher numbers to a program each time a new version is released?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow! It is so tooooo!!!!

What has that got to do with basing an opinion on software because of its version suffix? I suppose you believe Netscape's got better faster because it's jumped from v4 to v6 eh?
It's so simple. It's always going to be beta software becuase it'll be finished when it stops being updated. TX doesn't have any goal that says: "Mapster's going to be this at v1.0!"
So does the version number matter?

NO - the software matters.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NutWrench:
Way to promote your product! Come on, you can do better than that!
Try calling it "Flubber" or something. It worked for the Nutty Professor™. [img]smilies/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not my product moron. Go eat some bread.

[NutWrench]

You certainly are full of rage and despair today, Cyborg.

Exactly why ARE you here anyway? And I don't just mean here on this UBB, I mean why are you here on this planet? Is what you do with your life what your parents had in mind when they brought you into the world, and raised you?

You're not even a proper loony - you're just another pathetic maladjusted nerd who resents the better looking, smarter, more muscular, better hung alpha males of your own species, and the women who mate with them. This isn't the place to whine about how jealous you are. It's also not the place to beg for people to consider you a genius. Yer not a damn genius, you're a horrific social and psycho-emotive stall-out case with delusions of adequacy. You wasted all the time you should have spent learning to be a real person on your one narrow area, and because you've cloistered yourself among incompetent blithering morons, you're able to avoid the glaring truth about yourself.

Got news for ya, little fish... several people here are renowned in MULTIPLE fields of arts and sciences. Y'know, REAL geniuses. Others know EVERYTHING there is to know about their particular area of expertise. Not that any of that really matters... what matters is they're here to actually HELP people. You, on the other hand are not, and your pathetic attempts to make yourself feel important and/or interesting at their expense aren't even fooling YOU.

--Nut
P.S. Cyborg, if you are reading this as we both know you are powerless to resist doing, these are your instructions: You are order to JUMP. Only harder and higher next time. Meat Puppet.

[Mblackwell]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Most software available won't ever be "finished", that's why they release new versions. The difference is they generally release the beta version to their testers, not the general public. As for being lucky to have it, woohoo! I see no benefit in being one of your beta testers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, but most software DID come out finished before Unreal and the like came out. Epic did it, so now it's just become an industry norm (and a bad one at that). The fact is, Mapster isn't just a "software" it is a "software tool" which are ALWAYS updated. It's not really beta, but if it'll never be finished because you'll always be working on it, what should you call it? By saying it's beta people will assume that the product will change a bit in the near future. Well, most people... obviously not you. And damn, you WILL feel lucky to have Mapster, ESPECIALLY when Eduke 2.2 comes out...... fools [img]smilies/images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

And NutWrench, why bother insulting the LOOKS of someone you've NEVER SEEN???? You just wasted 1/4 of a page on that crap.