Wacky Kart

[Frenkel]

Where can I download Wacky Kart, aka Whacky ..., aka ... Karts, aka ... Cart, aka ... Carts?

http://tinyurl.com/3ywb47

http://tinyurl.com/2jgno6

http://tinyurl.com/2mr4hz

http://tinyurl.com/2vluas

It should be some sort of Wacky Wheels demo.

I can only find some HSC music files. With those HSC files came a Readme.txt: [quote]All files inside this directory are copyright (c) 1994 by Hannes Seifert (www.neo.at), Copysoft./[quote]

[Phil Carter]

Did anyone ever find a copy of Wacky Kart? I suppose that it's been lost in the mists of time for over a decade now. It sounds like it might be a leaked beta version of either Wacky Wheels or Skunny Kart.

And what are those HSC music files, Frenkel? Can you play them? Do they bear any resemblance to WW or Skunny Kart music?

[Litude]

This sounds intresting, though I doubt it's a leaked beta of Wacky Wheels. I guess it's like that One Must Fall thing, the author decides to release a game into the public and see what the reaction is. If it's positive, well then they're off to making a game.

A bit offtopic
I've always been wondering what those google groups things are? Are they some sort of archives of discussions that were made on BBSes?

[Frenkel]

I totally forgot about this, but today I've found Wacky Kart on some P2P network. Unfortunately the first screen that you see when you start up the game looks like this:

So I can't distribute it.

Anyway, the game looks exactly like Wacky Wheels. But I can't play it, because it requires a joystick and I don't have a joystick attached to this computer. Does anyone know of a joystick emulator, so for the program it looks like I use a joystick but in reality I press some buttons on my keyboard? I can only find some tools for the other way around.

With the DOSBox debugger I managed to hack around this obstacle. Here's a screenshot of the main menu:


And here's a screenshot of the game in action:


It looks like the creators of this pre-release version already contacted Apogee, because the shark is already called Razer.

I hear no music in this version and I don't have those HSC files anymore.

[Phil Carter]

Interesting. I'm guessing that this game is the ancestor of both WW and Skunny Kart, from back when Apogee and Copysoft were still fighting over the code. Here's the relevant section from the Apogee FAQ:

Back in 1993, we were doing some low budget stuff for a Belgium outfit called Copysoft. I got fed up with the meager work, so I decided to work on a game engine in my spare time. I figured that the PC could do the mode7 stuff that the Super Nintendo was doing. I could not find any references for it, so I just studied Mario Kart and tried to figure out how it worked. I had a prototype engine up in about a week that did the floor painting and the rotation stuff. After that, I worked on it for a few more months, and Shaun Gadalla did artwork for it, and it started to get pretty solid. I showed it to the Copysoft crew, and they were quite excited and put a few screenshots of it on Compuserve. The problem was, we hadn't come to any commercial agreement with the company, and it was not a sure thing that they would get the game. Scott Miller, Apogee's president, happened to come across the screenshots and contacted Copysoft, and then we got into a fight with Copysoft over royalties, should Apogee end up distributing the game. I had made an unfortunate mistake — I had included the C++ source code on the demo disk we left with them.

...

Then the bombshell hit us. Scott faxed us that Skunny Kart, a game from Copysoft that used my engine, had hit Compuserve. My heart sank. The only saving grace was that it was not all that similar to Wacky Wheels, and there was quite a legal wrangle over it all.

I was so angry, and it took all of Shaun's resolve to stop me from acting rashly. There was no way Copysoft had the ability to write an engine like that from scratch. In a perverse way, it taught me a valuable lesson. I was very hurt by it all, and it still bothers me to this day. In hindsight we were very stupid and should have known better.

Note that it says that there were some early screen shots up on Compuserve. I don't suppose those are still around. Probably they would look pretty much the same as Frenkel's screen shots anyway.

Too bad that the legality of distributing this game is highly questionable. Although the screen shot says Copysoft and that it's copyrighted by "EDISYS SCRL" (whatever that means), since it resembles WW so strongly and since there was a legal fight over this game, I wonder who really owns the copyright now.

I also doubt that either Apogee or Copysoft would be willing to give anyone permission to redistribute this game. Anyway, I think I'll put those screen shots up on my website sometime.

So, any ideas about who or what EDISYS SCRL is? I'll dig through some Google search results some time and see if I can figure it out.

[Litude]

Looks like it wasn't that hard to find after all. I did have to take my joystick out from the closet to get it running (Frenkel how did you get it to work using a keyboard?). There's no music in my version either. Here are some more screens for those who happen to be interested.

[szevvy]

The snow level looks like fun!

[Frenkel]

I didn't get it to work with a keyboard. The game checks whether a joystick button is pressed. If it's not pressed, it checks again. I removed the check and now the games thinks I keep pressing a joystick button. This way I could go to playing field and take a screenshot to show you all. I couldn't move or race.
I think DOSBox should have a feature to emulate a joystick through a keyboard. I think it already has a feature to emulate a keyboard through a joystick.

The second player had not been implented, I guess

I think a second player is available when you connect two joysticks.

I guess Edisys Scrl is to Copysoft, what Apogee is to 3D Realms and IntraCorp to Capstone. I think I read about what Edisys is in some Skunny game.

I think I think to much .

[franpa]

nullllll

[Shadow Master]

You're really thinking too much. I always wonder...

Originally Posted by Frenkel

I think DOSBox should have a feature to emulate a joystick through a keyboard. I think it already has a feature to emulate a keyboard through a joystick.

Not as far as I know. I do know of an open-source utility to emulate a keyboard (or was it a mouse?) thru a joy. It's available for Linux systems at least, as some distributions include it, but I can't recall its name.

By the way, how many games need you to own a joystick to play?

[Phil Carter]

The snow level reminds me: for several years, I've been planning to modify a WW level and make it winter themed. Creating a completely new level would probably require editing the executable file, but modifying an existing level wouldn't be too hard. You could take one of the dirt track levels and change the dirt to white, for example. You could give the water a lighter color and change the sky background pretty easily. You could make every character Morris and say you're racing "eight tiny reindeer". You can even change the names of the characters to match Santa's reindeer, although you'll have to abbreviate one of the names because none of the reindeer have a name that's only four characters long, so replacing the name "Tigi" will be a bit harder. It might even be possible to replace the midi files to Christmas music. I've had mixed results with replacing the midi files though. Maybe I'll take a shot at making a winter level in time for Christmas this year.

Sorry, Joe, I have to ask: does Apogee have any stance on this file? Would it be OK with you if I made it a download on my site? Since this version of the game was apparently distributed before Apogee got the rights to WW, does Apogee have anything to do with this file?

Litude, are you going to leave that web page up permanently? Should I link to your page from my site, or should I copy the images to my own site?

[Qbix]

Originally Posted by Shadow Master

You're really thinking too much. I always wonder...


Not as far as I know. I do know of an open-source utility to emulate a keyboard (or was it a mouse?) thru a joy. It's available for Linux systems at least, as some distributions include it, but I can't recall its name.

I thought DOSBox did that.
Just tested it. it seems to work.

Be sure to map keys to the joystick axis (and remove those keys from the keyboard mapped emulation)

[Shadow Master]

Oh, my bad. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Qbix

Be sure to map keys to the joystick axis (and remove those keys from the keyboard mapped emulation)

I'm not sure if I'm getting this right, but then I can emulate a joystick by modifying the key mapping? Didn't know that at all... that means I don't need to buy a joystick after all.

[Qbix]

at the right part of the mapper screen there are 2 virtual joysticks
you can assign real joysticks to them but also keys.

[Litude]

Oh I didn't know this! Is there a tutorial or something explaining how to do this? I tried to do what the readme told me to do, but failed miserably :P
EDIT1: So am I allowed to assign the same key to multiple places or does the key stop working completely? (EDIT1: Seems like you can)
EDIT2: I got it working, but for some strange reason I had to have my joystick inserted into the computer for it to work? Is there somekind of joystick check on this game that DOSBox doesn't emulate unless you attach a joystick?
EDIT3: Okay got it to work completely without joystick, had to change joystick type to 4axis.
Can you load a mapper "on fly"? I'd like to create a batch file that automatically loads the mapper and starts wacky kart when running. Seems like there was no "mapper" command at least.

Originally Posted by Phil Carter

Litude, are you going to leave that web page up permanently? Should I link to your page from my site, or should I copy the images to my own site?

Don't count on that, I'm sure they'll be there for quite some time but you never know with free hosts when the page dissapears and such... So in short I think you should copy them over to your site.

[Shadow Master]

I never played Wacky Wheels before this. I downloaded the shareware and played a bit. Although I still suck at it, that tiger is CUUUTEE!!
OK, I went a bit too far. It's just that I find all cats cute.
EDIT: that's right, Wacky Wheels from Apogee. I don't know about this one anything else than it's mentioned in the Apogee FAQ. I guess you'd have to ask the code steal... er, "reusers" about distributing this (I'm referring to Copysoft).

[Litude]

I'm quite sure that Copysoft no longer exists, so if Apogee (don't know if it's their decision, if they had nothing to do with the pre-release) has nothing against us distributing this file, I'd guess we're free to distribute it?
EDIT: You know, I just realized pretty much every beta and alpha of games say that you shouldn't distribute them, yet people do and the companies hardly care (if it's a released game). I guess the case here might be the same.

[Shadow Master]

i.e. Lame Duke.

[DOSGuy]

Copysoft still exists, sort of. They have a website (which is for sale), and it says that they are a division of American Computer Technologies. The site was still selling Skunny games until recently, but the sales email address no longer works. They exist in the sense that someone owns them, but they're not doing anything any more.

[Shadow Master]

They probably went bankrupt then. If so, they'd still have the rights over this program.

[Frenkel]

It seems like I can emulate a joystick through my keyboard with DOSBox. It's just that the user interface of the keymapper could be improved.

When I click on the 1 under the Joystick Layout and then click the Add button, I would like to get some feedback so I know the program knows I've pressed the Add button. Now I click on the Add button and nothing happens, so I press it again. Still nothing happens. So I think the Add button doesn't do anything, while actually after pressing the Add button I should press a key on my real keyboard or joystick to bind to the 1 button of the virtual joystick.

So in the next version of DOSBox I would like to see that after I've pressed the Add button, the screen starts to shake and flash and the text "Press a key to bind to this event" appears on the screen in big red letters. And the LEDs of the Num Lock, Scroll Lock and Caps Lock indicators on my keyboard start to flash. And I would like to hear a voice through my speakers that says "Press a key to bind to this event".
Or at least some feedback so I know the program knows I've pressed the Add button.

[franpa]

how bout a full motion 11 Terabyte video with a guy constantly saying over and over "PRESS A BUTTON TO MAP IT!" gets played when you click add :P

[Shadow Master]

Originally Posted by Frenkel

It seems like I can emulate a joystick through my keyboard with DOSBox. It's just that the user interface of the keymapper could be improved. [...]
So in the next version of DOSBox I would like to see that after I've pressed the Add button, the screen starts to shake and flash and the text "Press a key to bind to this event" appears on the screen in big red letters. And the LEDs of the Num Lock, Scroll Lock and Caps Lock indicators on my keyboard start to flash. And I would like to hear a voice through my speakers that says "Press a key to bind to this event".
Or at least some feedback so I know the program knows I've pressed the Add button.

It was really annoying when I had to build a keyboard mapping from scratch after building DOSBox 0.70 in Linux. I'm planning the next time to just read the keycodes (or were them symcodes?) from a specialized application and write the mapper.txt file manually.

But I guess this is not the place for a feature req... oh wait, it's the right place (!!!). Go ahead.

[Phil Carter]

So Joe, should I assume from your silence that Apogee has no comment about Wacky Kart?

[Joe Siegler]

What's there to comment about? Andy Edwardson went into detail about it in the Apogee FAQ. Beyond that, I honestly don't know what you expect me to say.

http://www.rinkworks.com/apogee/s/2.8.9.shtml

[Phil Carter]

I was wondering if Apogee would be ok with us redistributing the game. I know the title screen says Copysoft and "not for distribution", but since it resembles Wacky Wheels so strongly, I thought that Apogee might have a legitimate claim to owning the copyright. If that's the case, then you could decide whether we're allowed to redistribute the game. Or would you prefer us not to distribute it, or are you indifferent?

[Joe Siegler]

As far as I know, Apogee doesn't have any control over the Skunny Kart game. However...

I do not know what the legal status is. I could check into it, but might take some time to find out a proper answer. Beavis Soft I believe owns the copyright to Wacky Wheels (which would be Andy Edwardson). There was a legal stink about the game at the time.

As for distributing it... When in doubt, don't do it - catch my meaning?

[Phil Carter]

Yeah, I just thought I'd ask. I don't even have a copy, and I won't be getting one or offering it for download until it becomes clear that it's ok.

The copyright might expire in 70 years or so... and when I'm 93 I'll probably have nothing better to do than play Wacky Kart so that should work out nicely.

[Joe Siegler]

The names are:

Skunny Kart
Wacky Wheels

[szevvy]

Originally Posted by Joe Siegler

The names are:

Skunny Kart
Wacky Wheels

Whereas the name of this particular game is, in fact, "Wacky Kart", as far as I can see. That's what it says on the title screen screenshot that Frenkel posted, at least...

[Joe Siegler]

Then Wacky Kart is something totally different and something I don't know much about then.

I retract all statements I made previous - I thought we were talking about Skunny Kart, and you guys botched the name in the thread.

It would probably still be advisable not to distribute it.

[franpa]

hehe you thought this was a elaborate prank

[Joe Siegler]

Originally Posted by franpa

hehe you thought this was a elaborate prank

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

[DOSGuy]

Originally Posted by Phil Carter

I was wondering if Apogee would be ok with us redistributing the game. I know the title screen says Copysoft and "not for distribution", but since it resembles Wacky Wheels so strongly, I thought that Apogee might have a legitimate claim to owning the copyright. If that's the case, then you could decide whether we're allowed to redistribute the game. Or would you prefer us not to distribute it, or are you indifferent?

We already talked about this. It's a Copysoft game, so only Copysoft, or its parent company American Computer Technologies, can give permission to distribute it. Apogee and/or Andy Edwardson might have a case if they went to court and argued that the game uses an engine that Andy Edwardson wrote, but why would they spend money to fight for the rights to a pre-release game that they wouldn't earn any money off of? If you want to ask someone for permission to distribute the game, ask Copysoft.

[Phil Carter]

I just question whether it's really a Copysoft game. It's essentially an alpha version of Wacky Wheels, and Apogee owns Wacky Wheels. Copysoft looked at a pre-release version of Wacky Wheels before Apogee bought it, and then distributed a copy that had their own copyright notice, but that doesn't mean they own the early version of the game. It depends on exactly what rights Apogee bought from Copysoft or Andy Edwardson, and whether Copysoft actually owned anything in the first place.

In any case, I don't think anyone is going to get permission to release the game, regardless of whether Copysoft, Apogee, or Andy Edwardson has the best claim to owning the copyright on it.

[DOSGuy]

The way Andy Edwardson writes it, it sounds like he gave them a disk with source code without signing a contract, and they made a game with his code without his permission. Since he didn't have a contract, their position was that they had no legal obligation to compensate him for his "gift" and created Skunny Kart. Since neither Andy Edwardson nor Apogee contested Copysoft's rights to Skunny Kart in court, Copysoft still has the clearest title to the game, its alpha, beta and pre-release versions, and anything else they put their name on.

[szevvy]

Given that you can't distro the beta to Hocus Pocus, I'd say the chances of being able to distro this game are small. Copysoft's does still exist, though, they might be amicable to letting Crazy Kart out. *shrugs*

[franpa]

Originally Posted by Joe Siegler

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

dont worry, i have a short attention span and sometimes when bored ill stop paying attention and make up my own stories.

[Wellenreiter]

Originally Posted by Litude

A bit offtopic
I've always been wondering what those google groups things are? Are they some sort of archives of discussions that were made on BBSes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet
http://www.google.com/googlegroups/a...nounce_20.html

[SuperDolly]

I think it's horrible! I prefer rather WW's actuals characters! Uno is cuter than the pre-released one. Plus, almost all characters' accounts are changed!
Uno - changed
Sultan - changed
Morris - changed
Peggles - changed
Tigi - unchanged
Razer - changed
Blombo - changed
Ringo - unchanged

Tigi & Ringo didn't change