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Old 12-08-2012, 11:46 AM   #81
MrFlibble

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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikko_P View Post
Hmm... Interesting, I wonder what does Duke Nukem 3D and Shadow Warrior betas look like?
As a matter of fact, I'd probably be even more interested in the beta of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Siegler View Post
Duke Nukem 2D is what we called "Duke Nukem Forever - the Scroller" for awhile.
It was using the same engine as Alien Rampage, which is pretty advanced IMO. I wonder how far the development had gone before "Duke Nukem 2" got scrapped if Joe has a (presumably playable) beta of it. I'm pretty certain the game it would have become a very good game, as the engine is rather versatile. Something like a side-scrolling version of Duke3D was quite possible.

[Edit]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Siegler View Post
Everything has at least one build. Then with Prey I have CD backups of the E3 1997 and 1998 demos still. Same for the DNF 1998 E3 game. Although I'm not sure if they'll still run, I believe the DNF build was dongled, and I doubt we still have the security dongle from back then.
Oww, that would be much of a disappointment... Are there at least any screenshots of the side-scrolling Duke Nukem Forever game?

[Edit2] Ahh whoops, the 1998 version of Duke Nukem Forever must already be the fully 3D FPS thing, right?

[Edit3] Found some DNF side-scroller screenshots here (and also same stuff here). I fancy they come from some official preview pack, possibly on a CD with a full version of some other 3DR game?
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:55 AM   #82
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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
This is a great necro considering we are seeing the trickling of the Apogee stuff over to gog.com

I'd buy these old dinosaurs from the 3DR site here, but I really love my little gog library, and I'll happily swoop up whatever they want to throw up over there.

hint, hint
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:31 PM   #83
Mikko_P
Re: Really old Apogee stuff
By reading this topic, i was very interested in the beta collection that Joe Siegler has.

I always wanted to know what did his Duke Nukem 3D beta look like
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:37 PM   #84
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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Apparently, not only there indeed is a playable beta of the DNF side-scroller, but it had been played by an unnamed source for the purpose of creating those screenshots and then given to a community member who wrote this Duke Nukem Wiki article.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nacho
Not at the moment. I don't physically have this game and my source could only get this level working.
<...>
Well, it would of looked a bit better considering this was probably a pre-alpha... also this was taken from Dosbox and I think that may have contributed to it looking a tad worse than it should.
<...>
Not fake. They were given to me for the wiki with permission from 3D Realms, the specific source shall remain unnamed so she or he doesn't get bothered.
<...>
Any other questions about this just feel free to ask, I have a bunch of documents that were made during the development of this as well so I know a bit more then what I added to the wiki.
(source)
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:40 PM   #85
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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
somewhere in the definition of "Beta" they should include - "stuff you may be better off not knowing about"
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:44 PM   #86
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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
And what exactly do you mean by that may I ask?
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Old 12-08-2012, 01:01 PM   #87
KO Gilligan

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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
like broken stuff they couldn't fix but we want it really bad,
there's horrible ideas that fortunately got pulled that would give us hours of contemplating "What the hell were they thinking" (I seen some pretty lame ideas in a couple beta tests that I took part in),
there's the stuff they cut that we would end up really bummed about,
and my favorite is stuff they cut because they wanted to sell it in a DLC release.

I personally would love to know about all that stuff. But we may indeed be better off not knowing.
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Old 12-08-2012, 01:29 PM   #88
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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
From the standpoint of historical research, there's hardly any "better not know something" attitude.

Things that get scrapped for whatever reason are very telling of both the ideas the developers had and the general tendencies of genre development at a particular time on the whole.
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Old 12-08-2012, 02:11 PM   #89
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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
I was actually speaking of what happens when everyone finds out about certain aspects of beta.

On a personal level, I think neither of us are really better off not knowing. But information given to a bunch of rabid gamers with entitlement issues is another story. DLC does seem like a bit of a rip off with so many games being short on gameplay time nowadays - but better not let the community at large find out you spent a single moment developing DLC during the original game, only to sell it later. Get out the pitchforks.
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Old 12-08-2012, 04:44 PM   #90
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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Man I always love to post this picture
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:31 AM   #91
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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
I have seen that picture.

Where have you posted that pic before?
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:49 PM   #92
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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikko_P View Post
I have seen that picture.

Where have you posted that pic before?
Few times over lat two years - it was originally from Hendricks266 and I think Joe Siegler posted it first circa 2006.
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:10 PM   #93
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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Quote:
Originally Posted by KO Gilligan View Post
DLC does seem like a bit of a rip off with so many games being short on gameplay time nowadays - but better not let the community at large find out you spent a single moment developing DLC during the original game, only to sell it later.
Sorry for going off-topic a bit, can you give a couple of examples of early stuff that was saved for DLC? I haven't been following most modern games lately, so I've never heard of such practice. Well, maybe except for some of the LameDuke levels that have apparently later become a base for certain fourth episode levels
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:31 PM   #94
KO Gilligan

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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFlibble View Post
Sorry for going off-topic a bit, can you give a couple of examples of early stuff that was saved for DLC? I haven't been following most modern games lately, so I've never heard of such practice. Well, maybe except for some of the LameDuke levels that have apparently later become a base for certain fourth episode levels
It was not called "DLC" if you are talking specifically about really old games. If you are talking about old Apogee games, I don't know how they did things. I believe a couple of their games had post-release official retail add-ons, but I won't imply anything about their production. I have no idea with them, and add-ons themselves were not common very early on... If you want me to tell you about other post-release scenarios with other games..... No.

(and really, I've always supported the devs on this issue. It's their investment - and things get cut for lots of reasons. It's their business if they can increase their revenue in a practical way - it benefits the gamers if their restraint is loosened by the fact that they know if a feature is unused it might still have value later)
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:41 AM   #95
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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
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Originally Posted by KO Gilligan View Post
It was not called "DLC" if you are talking specifically about really old games.
Nope, I meant the new games, I haven't heard of any stuff that was in a pre-release version of a modern game but was not included in the retail release, only to be later made public as a downloadable add-on, so I asked about such cases.

The part about LameDuke levels was more of a joke

(I hope we aren't getting too off-topic here...)
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:39 PM   #96
KO Gilligan

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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFlibble View Post
Nope, I meant the new games, I haven't heard of any stuff that was in a pre-release version of a modern game but was not included in the retail release, only to be later made public as a downloadable add-on, so I asked about such cases.

The part about LameDuke levels was more of a joke

(I hope we aren't getting too off-topic here...)
They do hold back stuff to sell us later. I think it's great that they can do that. Part of the whole enormous cost thing mitigated by additional profits.

They take the risk that if we don't like the game because it's too short or something, it'll negate the profits anyway. I wish developers would create plans to continue with us beyond release day... it's a win-win.

But you know about the NDA, and fans who are always looking to find the "scam". Admitting unofficially to any pre-release creations coming later would be the death kiss from the industry.
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:39 PM   #97
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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
I never developed games, but several times when I worked in software engineering and development, we were given core requirements, then a substantial list of features, capabilities, functionality etc and THEN given a length of time to develop the product, starting with the core.
After core, we started developing requested elements balancing their list of importance vs estimated development time.

We developed mostly Database (FoxPro DBase etc) software. It was impossible to include all requested elements, often less than half. After the development reached a certain point, we would start to cap the software and clean up what we had, and cut sometimes dozens of unfinished elements. Some would represent large amounts of man hours, and these were almost never abandoned. We would then audit completion times and points of all those "cut" elements and submit them... then based on funding from the customer, we would then "sell" more elements and continue development.
Not exactly like DLC, but close. This part was not handled by us, but when we completed a segment, it was always modular and the distributor would then "sell" it as add-on to their customers.

The point is that some elements were 90% or more complete, some never started, and everywhere between. We never actually withheld elements we could have completed and we never cut elements that were 100% completed out of our product, with evil intentions of getting paid again for already developed modules. We just did the best we could, but had to cut and ship at some point... and that point was a set date from the start.

Personally, none of the software companies I am aware of, ever withheld any element of the software, as is often suggested of gaming DLC... none were gaming companies. There was no scam to find. At the company I worked, myself and three others were really too busy to ever have coordinated such treachery.

**edit** A summarizing point I wanted to add... in short, most software we developed had "content" that had to be cut during cleanup because it was not possible to finish it before cap. So if we had been showing content during development, people would have seen many (dozens?) in-development features that would never be completed in time for the final product. It wasn't "that kind" of software of course, like games.

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Old 12-11-2012, 12:54 PM   #98
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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
MrBlackCat, thanks a lot for sharing this with us, it's very insightful I'm certain game development industry works at least in part the same way as you described, although of course since it's entertainment industry there are other considerations and motivations in play as well.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:35 AM   #99
KO Gilligan

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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
and like I said, if the developers are actually planning on their being DLC, it doesn't really matter if they make it ahead, cobble it from leftovers, or just build in the mechanisms for it to be easily ramped up, it's a win for gamers. If a developer came right out and said, "We created content that couldn't make it into the game, but don't worry, we'll be putting out a nice add-on pack!", I'd be thanking them instead of being bitter about what we should be entitled to at release.

It's up to them to create a game-of-the-year so that it sells a zillion copies. It is not logical that they pull $4.99 value content out to "scam" us on a $60 game. DLC helps to sell more copies of an already successful title. Why wouldn't we be happy about development that plans to extend the franchise further after release?
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:26 PM   #100
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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Exactly how I have always viewed it. I have a massive collection of "add-on" software, the predecessor to DLC in my opinion.
With the long times it takes to develop anything today, parallel productions and using unfinished content is ideal for DLC.

Actually, I wonder if there has ever been proof that a company purposely removed content to sell later as DLC. I do not know. The content we cut where I worked WAS the actual business model! The only thing I can even think of would be how some companies tried episode based content, like Rex Blade (failed) and a couple of others I have, and I have read of some more modern game titles that tried it.

DLC is of little interest to me as I only use it on Android devices. I have not adjusted to this whole digital media concept beyond my Android. I did get the DLC for Duke Nukem Forever. I just miss boxes and disks, I don't have anything against DLC conceptually. I just look around the game room and realize that all these cool "add-ons" box sets like Duke Caribbean, D!Zone series and about 300 others here are a thing of the past.

MrBlackCat
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:03 PM   #101
Mikko_P
Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlackCat View Post
Exactly how I have always viewed it. I have a massive collection of "add-on" software, the predecessor to DLC in my opinion.
With the long times it takes to develop anything today, parallel productions and using unfinished content is ideal for DLC.

Actually, I wonder if there has ever been proof that a company purposely removed content to sell later as DLC. I do not know. The content we cut where I worked WAS the actual business model! The only thing I can even think of would be how some companies tried episode based content, like Rex Blade (failed) and a couple of others I have, and I have read of some more modern game titles that tried it.

DLC is of little interest to me as I only use it on Android devices. I have not adjusted to this whole digital media concept beyond my Android. I did get the DLC for Duke Nukem Forever. I just miss boxes and disks, I don't have anything against DLC conceptually. I just look around the game room and realize that all these cool "add-ons" box sets like Duke Caribbean, D!Zone series and about 300 others here are a thing of the past.

MrBlackCat
What kind of add-ons do you have?
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:14 PM   #102
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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikko_P View Post
What kind of add-ons do you have?
Conversions and TC's... like Duke Caribbean, Duke It Out in D.C. and Nuclear Winter for Duke 3D... and the Plutonium Pak I consider 90's equivalent of DLC., I have many shovelware compilations like the D!Zone series, Demon Gate series, and DooMsDay/DeathDay collections for DooM and DooM II. Same for Quake and many other games.

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Old 12-24-2012, 09:11 AM   #103
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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
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Originally Posted by MrBlackCat View Post
and the Plutonium Pak I consider 90's equivalent of DLC.
I fancy that the number one DLC equivalent from that time frame is the Shadow of the Serpent Riders upgrade for Heretic
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:41 PM   #104
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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
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I fancy that the number one DLC equivalent from that time frame is the Shadow of the Serpent Riders upgrade for Heretic
That is an excellent example, and as you say, is probably the number one from that time.
HeXen had Deathkings of the Dark Citadel, and DooM had Ultimate DooM with the addition of Thy Flesh Consumed in there also.
There are several others pre-Duke 3D that had substantial add-ons... if I start looking at 96 and forward, the list grows substantially. Nearly all of my knowledge is relative to DooM-a-like FPS's though, and there are probably many other types of games which had add-on material pre-dating what we call modern "DLC".

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Old 02-23-2013, 08:23 AM   #105
evilemperorzorg

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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Wonder...
What's so special about them so you don't give them to the fans? I mean, why just to keep it there hidden? And showing us only without giving them to us
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:11 AM   #106
Mikko_P
Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilemperorzorg View Post
Wonder...
What's so special about them so you don't give them to the fans? I mean, why just to keep it there hidden? And showing us only without giving them to us
What does that mean? I'm exactly thinking the same, that we want to see them
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:29 PM   #107
Mikko_P
Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Quote:
Originally Posted by xbryan2000x View Post
Hey i wonder if Joe or Hendricks266 can release that Shadow Warrior and Duke 3D Builds

I Would be instrested too if someone can rip or remaster the SW Sprites like the Evil Ninja
The One with Blue or Red Vest and a Ninja Suit

Weapons with either Black Sleeves and Early WristBands

- Bryan J
I am exactly interested to see these early Shadow Warrior and Duke 3D builds
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Old 04-06-2013, 02:38 AM   #108
Mikko_P
Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Quote:
Originally Posted by xbryan2000x View Post
I Have a question who owns this folder with those builds
Handricks or Joe Sigler?

well i wished we got that sw beta
the Multiplayer will rock the World

I Have the Riotgun Restored and Remade from 1996
But i need the Early Evil Ninja also Lost Enemy even if was Remade too

If we can find the most resources for a Remake for SW Retail

Well gota go

- xBRYAN2000x
You mean this picture right? Joe Siegler owns these prototypes

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Old 04-07-2013, 04:35 AM   #109
Mikko_P
Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Quote:
Originally Posted by xbryan2000x View Post
Well okay Joe Sigler hasent replied

Hey Mikko

Add me on Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/bryan.spurlock1
If you have facebook
That's a nice thing, that you have Facebook too, but i don't use Facebook that much

Mr.Siegler hasn't replied for me either, maybe he's busy or something

---------- Post added at 04:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:24 AM ----------

Hey Bryan, do you have Skype also?

I would like to try Skype, but i hasn't installed it to my PC yet.
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Old 04-28-2013, 02:57 AM   #110
Mikko_P
Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Well, got no response from Mr.Siegler yet, but i'm not sure if i see this thing happening after giving out the regards for him
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:31 PM   #111
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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Woah, woah, woah. You're expecting a response way too soon, things run a lot slower around here.
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Old 05-25-2013, 12:47 PM   #112
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Ooo Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikko_P View Post
You mean this picture right? Joe Siegler owns these prototypes

*heartattack* I WANT THAT COSMO PROTOTYPE.
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Old 06-10-2013, 12:53 PM   #113
Mikko_P
Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaose View Post
Woah, woah, woah. You're expecting a response way too soon, things run a lot slower around here.
And what's with that one?
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:25 PM   #114
Darkman 4
Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Joe won't give you a reply because he doesn't want to release them. Constantly bugging him about it will just make him more annoyed.

And thanks for the huge copy and paste about Unreal 1996! We're all very impressed.
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:20 PM   #115
Mikko_P
Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Bryan and I were not trying to bug him about his prototypes. We just wanted to know what they look like and what stuff they include.
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Old 07-11-2013, 05:16 PM   #116
Nacho

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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikko_P View Post
Bryan and I were not trying to bug him about his prototypes. We just wanted to know what they look like and what stuff they include.
It still won't happen. If you want to get something from Joe you don't ask for it, he will release stuff if he feels it will add something or if he feels it is worth doing.

Plus, you have to realize that while Joe may have them he does not tend to 'own' them. They still are tied down somewhere and somehow.
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Old 07-12-2013, 05:40 AM   #117
Mikko_P
Re: Really old Apogee stuff
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nacho View Post
It still won't happen. If you want to get something from Joe you don't ask for it, he will release stuff if he feels it will add something or if he feels it is worth doing.

Plus, you have to realize that while Joe may have them he does not tend to 'own' them. They still are tied down somewhere and somehow.
Okay, okay, I get it. *sigh*

I already understand, but i didn't quite understand what you meant about owning them. When was the last time you heard that it won't happen?
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Old 07-12-2013, 07:29 AM   #118
Nacho

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Re: Really old Apogee stuff
I don't really talk to Joe about that stuff, the last time was over two years ago when I was getting info for the Duke wiki.

Joe has this stuff since that's just what he did when he worked at 3D Realms, he backed up everything, and while he may have it 3D Realms still owns it so if he was to release anything, even a screenshot, he has to get the 'Okay' first. That's the thing about Joe he is very loyal which is why he is the best to hold on to that stuff.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:05 PM   #119
Mikko_P
Re: Really old Apogee stuff
One of the users from Duke4.net forums told me, that to Joe Siegler, Hendricks266 is a fan who wants to get his hands on the betas or something.

Ever wonder why?
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Old 07-15-2013, 01:14 PM   #120
Mikko_P
Re: Really old Apogee stuff
And I guess you're right.

Although anyone was trying to ask Joe to see his betas, I still don't see it happening and if i want something from him such as Duke Nukem 3D & Shadow Warrior betas for example, I won't be asking for it.

I agree with you in this, Nacho
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