No Tiny Tim, there won't be Co-op, and you have cancer, Merry Christmas.

jojohamy · 09-20-2008, 11:56 AM

This is really a question for anyone involved in the development of this project. Although anyone should feel free to weigh in intelligently.

Before I ask this I want you to know some things about me.

I'm an adamant gamer. I love's to play, and I love's some Duke Nukem. I played all of them, and I have to say ALL of the games offer me something new, and are really good. I'm even one of those people that pre-ordered Duke Nukem forever WAY back in the day.

So, naturally I was excited for Duke Nukem 3D XBLA because one of my favorite childhood memories was blazing though Duke Nukem 64 on co-op with my dad. Now I'm older, and I wanted to have my girlfriend play through with me. So DNXBLA seemed like a gift from god.
I was anxious, and happy, and patiently awaiting release. I BOUGHT POINTS!! I have 20 bucks worth of points just sitting in my account awaiting to purchase Duke for my 360. ( this would be my third time paying for the game, because I own it for the 64 and PC.) Then...paranoia set in. I saw lots of articles online for "!!8-player ONLINE CO-OP!1 WOOH!!?!?!? IT's going to be awesome!?!?!? wooh!?!?!?" Which for some reason isn't exciting for me, but instead "reads" to me "so...f*ck offline co-op." But I trust you guys for the most part, so I said, I'll go the the 3D realms forum, and ask. just to be sure. That should put my fears to rest. As I'm sure you're all aware, I was sorely hurt when I found split-screen was not only not in, but not even considered.

WHY ISN'T THERE A SPLIT-SCREEN CO-OP?!?!?!?

Sometimes I fell like I'm being penalized for having real-life actual friends that I want to hang out and play games with. So many developers are abandoning the co-op, or making it an exclusively on-line endeavor. I can't understand this horse-shat. Why is it so difficult for modern developers to get the reigns on this decade old concept.

In addition to which, I understand how, a lack of split-screen makes alot of economic sense for an XBLA title. o play co-op online, you need 2 downloads of the game and two people with xbox-live gold. I get that, so if you want to cop-out and say that Microsoft pressured you into omission of that feature, I'll understand. Lord knows they do stupid crap like that with XBLA games sometimes.

Playing Duke Nukem 64 instead of giving you money I wanted you to have,
Joe

pjohnsonjr · 09-20-2008, 12:13 PM

I think you're failing to realize that this is built off the PC version. The PC version never had split screen co-op. It had 8-player multiplayer. Because of it's network functionality, it's easier to rig up co-op this way than it is to create split screen.

You mention Duke 64, Duke 64 I believe was outsourced to someone under the GT Interactive umbrella to do porting. I believe the N64 also made it easy to split screens (maybe, I'm not sure).

In order to make split screens happen, you're basically having two cameras (at least, if not more), being rendered to the screen at the same time. It may seem "easy" just by that description, but there is a ton of variables that go into it and a lot of things can go wrong. By everyone from 3D Realm's description, this didn't take over DNF Development resources and it was given enough to make sure it was going forward without impeding everything else.

That being said, It's very understandable why Split-Screen co-op isn't in. Could it be added later? Maybe. The IGN article mentioned some further add-ons for the game. Sorry you feel jilted, but development of software is a beast that can not be fully understood unless you've been through it at least once or twice. This is something I speak of from experience. Sometimes you have to leave stuff cut before you get going because the development ratios could get out of whack.

So don't get sour grapes, we're all gamers here

.

jojohamy · 09-20-2008, 12:22 PM

So your answer is, "It's hard and 3D realms was never even able to do it, they had another company do it?"

This speaks volumes

Daedolon · 09-20-2008, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jojohamy

So your answer is, "It's hard and 3D realms was never even able to do it, they had another company do it?"

This speaks volumes

You're forgetting that they are working on Duke Nukem Forever and they're doing us a big favour with the XBLA version of Duke Nukem 3D.

pjohnsonjr · 09-20-2008, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jojohamy

So your answer is, "It's hard and 3D realms was never even able to do it, they had another company do it?"

This speaks volumes

No.

What I'm saying is development studios usually put time line on things. Duke 3D's was pre-existing. What you're wanting would require someone to go in there and change/add a bunch of code. Something that could of taken upwards to 2/4 months additional with development/testing time. I believe they wanted to get it out this year, and I believe If I remember George saying, there was a minimal amount of resources attached to the project. If I'm wrong they can correct me.

You basically took my words of it wasn't in the PC version and you comparing it to a port done for the 64 as one fact. I'm telling you that you were comparing apples to oranges. N64 code is not PC code and vice vera. Any code they'd want to add for split screen would of been additional development time, something most likely they wanted to avoid. (PS: I didn't say they couldn't do it either. Don't misread or try to read between lines. Countries go to war for less than that

).

RedSplat · 09-20-2008, 12:30 PM

Is it going to have splitscreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by George B. On Xbox Live Forums

"Unfortunately, no. We had limited time and resources and figured we were better off focusing on online play (which is fairly robust for an XBLA game), where we feel most of the players would be. We know there's a percentage of people that like to play split screen on the same console, though."

pjohnsonjr · 09-20-2008, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedSplat

Is it going to have splitscreen

That post says it all, in shorter words.

jojohamy · 09-20-2008, 12:35 PM

See honestly, that mentality is found all over this site, and I don't get it.
I know I'm going to sound like a douche, but I Don't get the overwhelming amount of Dev sympathy on here. This team that hasn't finished a f*cking project in over a decade, gets all the leeway in the world.

It's like saying, "If a bunch of guys screwing around in a basement couldn't complete it in 3 weeks, then it's way too much effort for us to be bothered with. JEBUS, guys, You're calling producing a port, a PORT of a decade old game, a "big ole, favor." People have made more advanced games then this, with less time, and less resources. I hate to sound like a jerk, but come on guys, think about this realistically.

pjohnsonjr · 09-20-2008, 12:42 PM

Duke Nukem Forever is their main priority. They didn't roll the entire company over to do this.

It's a port of a game. A port means you take pre-existing code for one console/operating system and make it compatible to a code type for another console/operating system. If there was no compatibility needing to be done and it was straight "ok this code is compatible, let's add stuff" then it'd of possibly been considered.

Porting is not a snap-your-fingers-press-a-button-and-it's-done type of deal. Ask 2K Boston why Bioshock is just now seeing release on the PS3.

I could go over development with you until I'm blue in the face, but you're not gonna see it.

jojohamy · 09-20-2008, 12:52 PM

Bio shock is just getting ported because the PS3 is ridiculously to program for.

PC and 360 code are terribly compatible.

Miyamoto-san-a game that is bad is bad forever, as game that is late is only late until it comes out.

MegaMustaine · 09-20-2008, 01:32 PM

I'm really confused as to what the hell your problem is. Last time I checked 3DR is an independently owned company that is free to use its resources how it sees fit. Do you really think that split screen would have helped the sales of the game? I don't, and 3DR didn't see huge potential in it either otherwise they would have taken the time to add the feature. If you don't like it then don't buy the game, but 3DR owes you nothing just like we owe 3DR nothing. If the XBLA game doesn't have the features you want then don't buy it. If it didn't have the features I wanted I wouldn't buy it either, but I wouldn't come whine and complain to the world about it because last time I checked the world doesn't revolve around me and it certainly doesn't revolve around you.

Klaus Kinski · 09-20-2008, 01:37 PM

I'd rather have them finish DNF. 'nuff said. ; )

ZaphodB · 09-20-2008, 01:49 PM

Makes me wonder why people join to come and post a thread like this? "jojohamy" joined today and his entire posts are in this thread. Why can't someone join a board and say "Hi" or something nice first?

You want split screen co-op dude, go play the n64 version you've so adamantly posted about. You don't like it because there's no splt-screen co-op? Then DON'T buy it. Simple. Easy. Done.

George Broussard · 09-20-2008, 01:49 PM

We had limited time and effort to put into the game but did the best we could, and we included some very cool new features.

In our research it seems that about 70-75% of people play online and 25-30% play split screen.

We were certainly aware of the issue and the tradeoff's we made, but we just couldn't do everything and we honestly thought the majority of people would play online, even with friends, so we put the efforts there.

09-20-2008, 11:56 AM	#1
jojohamy	No Tiny Tim, there won't be Co-op, and you have cancer, Merry Christmas. This is really a question for anyone involved in the development of this project. Although anyone should feel free to weigh in intelligently. Before I ask this I want you to know some things about me. I'm an adamant gamer. I love's to play, and I love's some Duke Nukem. I played all of them, and I have to say ALL of the games offer me something new, and are really good. I'm even one of those people that pre-ordered Duke Nukem forever WAY back in the day. So, naturally I was excited for Duke Nukem 3D XBLA because one of my favorite childhood memories was blazing though Duke Nukem 64 on co-op with my dad. Now I'm older, and I wanted to have my girlfriend play through with me. So DNXBLA seemed like a gift from god. I was anxious, and happy, and patiently awaiting release. I BOUGHT POINTS!! I have 20 bucks worth of points just sitting in my account awaiting to purchase Duke for my 360. ( this would be my third time paying for the game, because I own it for the 64 and PC.) Then...paranoia set in. I saw lots of articles online for "!!8-player ONLINE CO-OP!1 WOOH!!?!?!? IT's going to be awesome!?!?!? wooh!?!?!?" Which for some reason isn't exciting for me, but instead "reads" to me "so...f*ck offline co-op." But I trust you guys for the most part, so I said, I'll go the the 3D realms forum, and ask. just to be sure. That should put my fears to rest. As I'm sure you're all aware, I was sorely hurt when I found split-screen was not only not in, but not even considered. WHY ISN'T THERE A SPLIT-SCREEN CO-OP?!?!?!? Sometimes I fell like I'm being penalized for having real-life actual friends that I want to hang out and play games with. So many developers are abandoning the co-op, or making it an exclusively on-line endeavor. I can't understand this horse-shat. Why is it so difficult for modern developers to get the reigns on this decade old concept. In addition to which, I understand how, a lack of split-screen makes alot of economic sense for an XBLA title. o play co-op online, you need 2 downloads of the game and two people with xbox-live gold. I get that, so if you want to cop-out and say that Microsoft pressured you into omission of that feature, I'll understand. Lord knows they do stupid crap like that with XBLA games sometimes. Playing Duke Nukem 64 instead of giving you money I wanted you to have, Joe

09-20-2008, 12:13 PM	#2
pjohnsonjr	Re: No Tiny Tim, there won't be Co-op, and you have cancer, Merry Christmas. I think you're failing to realize that this is built off the PC version. The PC version never had split screen co-op. It had 8-player multiplayer. Because of it's network functionality, it's easier to rig up co-op this way than it is to create split screen. You mention Duke 64, Duke 64 I believe was outsourced to someone under the GT Interactive umbrella to do porting. I believe the N64 also made it easy to split screens (maybe, I'm not sure). In order to make split screens happen, you're basically having two cameras (at least, if not more), being rendered to the screen at the same time. It may seem "easy" just by that description, but there is a ton of variables that go into it and a lot of things can go wrong. By everyone from 3D Realm's description, this didn't take over DNF Development resources and it was given enough to make sure it was going forward without impeding everything else. That being said, It's very understandable why Split-Screen co-op isn't in. Could it be added later? Maybe. The IGN article mentioned some further add-ons for the game. Sorry you feel jilted, but development of software is a beast that can not be fully understood unless you've been through it at least once or twice. This is something I speak of from experience. Sometimes you have to leave stuff cut before you get going because the development ratios could get out of whack. So don't get sour grapes, we're all gamers here . __________________ Fear ~~Alexander~~ Carrot Top the Great! Last edited by pjohnsonjr; 09-20-2008 at 12:21 PM.

09-20-2008, 12:22 PM	#3
jojohamy	Re: No Tiny Tim, there won't be Co-op, and you have cancer, Merry Christmas. So your answer is, "It's hard and 3D realms was never even able to do it, they had another company do it?" This speaks volumes

09-20-2008, 12:35 PM	#8
jojohamy	Re: No Tiny Tim, there won't be Co-op, and you have cancer, Merry Christmas. See honestly, that mentality is found all over this site, and I don't get it. I know I'm going to sound like a douche, but I Don't get the overwhelming amount of Dev sympathy on here. This team that hasn't finished a f*cking project in over a decade, gets all the leeway in the world. It's like saying, "If a bunch of guys screwing around in a basement couldn't complete it in 3 weeks, then it's way too much effort for us to be bothered with. JEBUS, guys, You're calling producing a port, a PORT of a decade old game, a "big ole, favor." People have made more advanced games then this, with less time, and less resources. I hate to sound like a jerk, but come on guys, think about this realistically.

09-20-2008, 12:42 PM	#9
pjohnsonjr	Re: No Tiny Tim, there won't be Co-op, and you have cancer, Merry Christmas. Duke Nukem Forever is their main priority. They didn't roll the entire company over to do this. It's a port of a game. A port means you take pre-existing code for one console/operating system and make it compatible to a code type for another console/operating system. If there was no compatibility needing to be done and it was straight "ok this code is compatible, let's add stuff" then it'd of possibly been considered. Porting is not a snap-your-fingers-press-a-button-and-it's-done type of deal. Ask 2K Boston why Bioshock is just now seeing release on the PS3. I could go over development with you until I'm blue in the face, but you're not gonna see it. __________________ Fear ~~Alexander~~ Carrot Top the Great!

09-20-2008, 12:52 PM	#10
jojohamy	Re: No Tiny Tim, there won't be Co-op, and you have cancer, Merry Christmas. Bio shock is just getting ported because the PS3 is ridiculously to program for. PC and 360 code are terribly compatible. Miyamoto-san-a game that is bad is bad forever, as game that is late is only late until it comes out.

09-20-2008, 01:32 PM	#11
MegaMustaine	Re: No Tiny Tim, there won't be Co-op, and you have cancer, Merry Christmas. I'm really confused as to what the hell your problem is. Last time I checked 3DR is an independently owned company that is free to use its resources how it sees fit. Do you really think that split screen would have helped the sales of the game? I don't, and 3DR didn't see huge potential in it either otherwise they would have taken the time to add the feature. If you don't like it then don't buy the game, but 3DR owes you nothing just like we owe 3DR nothing. If the XBLA game doesn't have the features you want then don't buy it. If it didn't have the features I wanted I wouldn't buy it either, but I wouldn't come whine and complain to the world about it because last time I checked the world doesn't revolve around me and it certainly doesn't revolve around you. __________________ This signature is a 77/100!

09-20-2008, 01:37 PM	#12
Klaus Kinski	Re: No Tiny Tim, there won't be Co-op, and you have cancer, Merry Christmas. I'd rather have them finish DNF. 'nuff said. ; ) __________________ "Violence is stupid because an eye for an eye makes everyone blind." - jimbob "But hey when in doubt - Zombies!!!" - Kalki "OMG WTF BOO!!" - Aegeri

09-20-2008, 01:49 PM	#13
ZaphodB	Re: No Tiny Tim, there won't be Co-op, and you have cancer, Merry Christmas. Makes me wonder why people join to come and post a thread like this? "jojohamy" joined today and his entire posts are in this thread. Why can't someone join a board and say "Hi" or something nice first? You want split screen co-op dude, go play the n64 version you've so adamantly posted about. You don't like it because there's no splt-screen co-op? Then DON'T buy it. Simple. Easy. Done. __________________ "If there's ANYTHING larger than my EGO I want it shot and killed right now" - Zaphod Beeblebrox This Public Service Announcement brought to you by: "The People Who Have NO Idea What's Going On" (TPWHNOIWGON) We thank you for ignoring it.

09-20-2008, 01:49 PM	#14
George Broussard	Re: No Tiny Tim, there won't be Co-op, and you have cancer, Merry Christmas. We had limited time and effort to put into the game but did the best we could, and we included some very cool new features. In our research it seems that about 70-75% of people play online and 25-30% play split screen. We were certainly aware of the issue and the tradeoff's we made, but we just couldn't do everything and we honestly thought the majority of people would play online, even with friends, so we put the efforts there.