Did 3DR copyright the term "Bullet-Time"

I was reading an Interview for the new Matrix game and they talk about how "Another game company Stole the phrase.'' I'm pretty sure 3drealms were the ones who stole it. I was just wondering if 3drealms really did copyright it, why did they? They didnt invent the technique , they just ripped it off.

[RollingBrass]

They did indeed copyright the term "Bullet-Time". That doesn't mean that ripped off the technique. It only means that the Matrix (or any other other production in any other media like TV, and video games) can't call the slowing down of time "Bullet-Time". They can still use it.
So, in essence, they aren't ripping off or stealing anything. They purchased the rights to the name legally, and it only affects the name, not the technique. It's a pretty trivial matter, actually.

But the matrix movie designers did infact call it bullet time, they say it through out the dvd. And the dvd came out a year before max payne.

[Joe Siegler]

Originally posted by The Terminator:
But the matrix movie designers did infact call it bullet time, they say it through out the dvd. And the dvd came out a year before max payne.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, but that's a movie. This was a video game, which in terms of the copyright laws are two totally different mediums, and as such, since we were first to market in the videogame arena to use the term "Bullet Time", it was copyrighted to us/Remedy (well, now Take 2, since they bought the IP rights a year ago or so).

[Maddieman]

It was for the taking; someone was bound to exploit it. Just be glad that Remedy got there first and did an amazing job with it - god knows what would have happend if EA got hold of the bullet-time licence.

However, I'm sure someone will argue that they planned to use slow-motion in Max Payne in the first place. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[Yenz]

Yeah, but that's a movie. This was a video game, which in terms of the copyright laws are two totally different mediums

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cool then it's ok to do a movie about Duke, since Duke is a video game (I know there's a movie coming, but it was just an example)
Stealing is allways stealing. I would rather hear 3dR saying, we love Matrix and we used their special FX in our game.
I think 3dR did something similar with the Duke Nukem (Nukum) name before.
Just hiding behind bought copyrights isn't nice.
As allways just my thoughts

[ADM]

Matrix was NOT the first movie to use Bullet Time.. why can't people see that.

Originally posted by ADoomedMarine:
Matrix was NOT the first movie to use Bullet Time.. why can't people see that.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What was???

[theblindtree]

It was for the taking; someone was bound to exploit it. Just be glad that Remedy got there first and did an amazing job with it - god knows what would have happend if EA got hold of the bullet-time licence.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can see it now...

Medal of Honor...NOW WITH BULLET-TIME!
"Remember the Matrix? Well, say hello to World War II!"

Coming soon...The Sims...Bullet-Time Edition!

[Joe Siegler]

Originally posted by ADoomedMarine:
Matrix was NOT the first movie to use Bullet Time.. why can't people see that.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now do you mean Bullet Time, or the slowdown effect? If the latter, then yeah, but I cannot recall of a movie before the Matrix calling it Bullet Time.

[biXen]

Well, Max Payne had slowdowns even before Matrix, it looked just as cool (since it wasn't used properly in a game before). Quite frankly I don't see the big deal in getting some bullets there. And the whole trails thing is pretty lame. There's no doubt that Max Payne in the end was inspired by Matrix, but it's original inspiration was Hong Kong action flicks, and they have kickass slow-mo's there too, I think many of you are confusing normal movie slowdowns with bullet-time, which is more describing the stand-still where camera moves. Which even Max had in 1998, check the E3 trailer, Max and a baddie is facing eachother guns in eachother's faces and camera rotating around them... ripoff? Hardly, and everyone with insight know what a ripoff Matrix is, so even if it is, it's only payback [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by biXen:
Well, Max Payne had slowdowns even before Matrix, it looked just as cool (since it wasn't used properly in a game before). Quite frankly I don't see the big deal in getting some bullets there. And the whole trails thing is pretty lame. There's no doubt that Max Payne in the end was inspired by Matrix, but it's original inspiration was Hong Kong action flicks, and they have kickass slow-mo's there too, I think many of you are confusing normal movie slowdowns with bullet-time, which is more describing the stand-still where camera moves. Which even Max had in 1998, check the E3 trailer, Max and a baddie is facing eachother guns in eachother's faces and camera rotating around them... ripoff? Hardly, and everyone with insight know what a ripoff Matrix is, so even if it is, it's only payback [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HAH! Dont make me laugh!!! As soon as the matrix hit theaters, Remedy ripped the effects off. Joe needs to give you his old "Get the facts before you talk speech".

[j]

Originally posted by Yenz:
I would rather hear 3dR saying, we love Matrix and we used their special FX in our game.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Only, Remedy didn't "use their special FX" in Max Payne, they used slow motion, which they happened to call bullet time. Bullet time in the "movie world" stands for the technique used for the slow-mo shot where the camera moves around (which is achieved with a skitload of strategically placed still cameras), not just for slow motion in general.

Originally posted by biXen:
Well, Max Payne had slowdowns even before Matrix..

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Slowdown - slow motion, they stand for a bit different things.

[Maddieman]

Hmm...I really hope this thread doesn't degenerate into a Matrix vs. Max Payne thread - I like them both.

[biXen]

j: by slowdown I meant that it gradually changes speed, not the FPS based slowdown (which you probably have [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img] )

TheTerminator: I have followed Max Payne since I read about it in 1997, I think I know what I'm talking about. And far too many people confuse stuff that's been in MANY movies with things truly exclusive to Matrix (which is mostly only what j says, the camera moving around when time is hardly moving). The shots in the 98 E3 video show time at a stand still at one point, dunno if that was intended or whatever, but that was before Matrix was out.

But am not gonna discuss this anymore now, because discussing with persons that only replies with rubbish is pretty meaningless. www.getaclue.com [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[RollingBrass]

Originally posted by The Terminator:
HAH! Dont make me laugh!!! As soon as the matrix hit theaters, Remedy ripped the effects off. Joe needs to give you his old "Get the facts before you talk speech".

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Max Payne has always been based on HK action flicks. Even before The Matrix came out, there was slow-motion in the game. Once The Matrix came out, they created little homages to it as well (such as the door being blasted off in the subway and walking through the Aesier metal detectors). Movies like Hard Boiled used slow-motion gunfights as an action staple long before The Matrix, 10 years before its release. Why aren't you bitching about The Matrix "ripping off" stuff from John Woo movies and anime (or even the basic plot from relatively unknown shitty movies)?

[ 02-06-2003, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: RollingBrass ]

[tommulder]

yea ^ MP is based mainly off the John Woo fils - he loves his slowmotion scenes. for a modern look check out mission impossible 2, the fight at the end. it was his earlier films that inspired remedy.

Then a film came along w/the same pecial feature that max had so they put some easter eggs in the game - dont you remember the early pictures of it before the martix' release of max shootdodging in the subway? and the wachowskis had kept the lid firmly on anything matrix related until just before its release, so more proof [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[theHunted]

so even if they "ripped it off",
whats the whole point about it?

arguing like that about 2 single f****** words...
will it affect the matrix game in any friggin way if they now just cant use the words "bullet time" in the manual and on the dvd case? I really dont wanna use that lame phrase but hey:
"get a life"

[j]

Originally posted by theHunted:
so even if they "ripped it off",
whats the whole point about it?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What's the point of people digging up old topics when they don't have anything to contribute to them?

[Kasterix]

Heh... It's funny when people start arguing about The Matrix being the 'inventor' of bullet-time.
If Max Payne ripped it from The Matrix, then The Matrix ripped it from the movies that used the effects before it.

All The Matrix creators did was name it and call it their own [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[j]

Originally posted by Kasterix:
Heh... It's funny when people start arguing about The Matrix being the 'inventor' of bullet-time.
If Max Payne ripped it from The Matrix, then The Matrix ripped it from the movies that used the effects before it.

All The Matrix creators did was name it and call it their own [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm still waiting for someone to say the name of a movie that was released before the Matrix and uses the bullet time effect. And by bullet time, I still mean the special array of still(or movie) cameras setup right next to each other used to produce camera movement in extreme slow-motion. I've only seen that done in other movies after the Matrix.

And still, it's just a question of the usage of terms here. Remedy used the term "bullet time" for slowing down the time in the game, just regular slow-motion. The Wachowskis used the term for what I described above.

As far as I know, the Wachowskis "invented" bullet-time or were atleast a part of it's development.

[Maddieman]

I agree with j on this one. Bullet-time was not supposed to be just a slow motion effect where you can see the bullets moving past the character, like in the John Woo films. Bullet time is about mixing live actors on a virtual set, and being able to record and manipulate the scene with virtual cameras.

The basic idea that they were looking for was to transfer the frozen, 'action' frame style you get in comic books, onto film; but be able to move/manipulate the camera at a real time speed. From what I gather; they approached plenty of people about this idea, most of which suggested attaching the camera to some sort of rocket setup. John Gaeta suggested using high-speed still cameras, and since it sounded more plausible, they went with it. Their first live action bullet time test was made in 1996, and it shows a stuntman dodging bullets while a barrel explodes in front of him.

A similar technique has been tried before (much, much earlier) in the past -- but bullet-time has only become practical in film recently, due to the increasing power and flexibility of computer technology.

[Raeyl]

Didn't they call it "Dead-Time"?
Or maybe that's when the scene is paused but the camera rotates. eg. Trinity jump-kick.

the music video for NiN - closer, used bullet-time, and that came out in 1993/4

[Jokke_r]

iv seen lots of bullettime effects before the matrix. in a nature show there was a dolphin jumping out of the water and time totally froze and the camera spin around it...

[biXen]

It's also been in some games, like a pause mode where the camera centers on something and spins around it, but it's not done very stylistic until Matrix...

[Dunedain]

Hmm, I don't recall the kind of high speed maneuvers (and thus the effect
of two things happening quickly seeming to happen slowly relative to one another)
that can be done when in the Matrix ever referred to in the movie as "bullet time".
In fact, I don't think any term was ever used in the movie at all in reference
to those abilities.

As far as the character being able to perform such moves while others appear
to be moving in slow motion, Max Payne may well have had that already in
the design before The Matrix ever came out. But it wouldn't surprise me if
the details of the style of the graphical presentation of the bullets flying
through the air as they are done in Max Payne was inspired by The Matrix.
But that's not the same thing as the idea of using "bullet time" in the first place.

As far as the term "bullet time" itself goes, as long as it wasn't spoken in
The Matrix itself (which I'm pretty sure it wasn't), then I don't care if it's
not used in any of the Matrix games. Since the only canon that counts is
the movie itself, and since it wasn't spoken of there, there is no need to ever
use it in anything related to The Matrix. The ability is what counts, not
the name used for it.

[j]

Why can't people just leave this thread alone?

Originally posted by Dunedain:
Hmm, I don't recall the kind of high speed maneuvers (and thus the effect
of two things happening quickly seeming to happen slowly relative to one another)
that can be done when in the Matrix ever referred to in the movie as "bullet time".
In fact, I don't think any term was ever used in the movie at all in reference
to those abilities.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well duh, the term "bullet time" was used by the creators of the movie to refer to the shooting technique (as in, "shooting with a camera") described in the above posts.

[Dunedain]

j: That's just my point. It may have been the name they liked to use
amongst themselves, but as long as it wasn't used in the movie itself,
it means nothing from a continuity or canon standpoint. And, as a fan
of The Matrix, that's the only thing that means anything; actual movie canon
from the world of the Matrix, not what names people may have used privately
to describe things that happen in the movie. And since the term was never
used in the movie, it's absence later on won't be of any significance.

Although it would be interesting to note whether or not Remedy already was using
this term themselves while they were working on Max Payne before the
Matrix ever came out, purely as a point of academic interest. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[ 04-07-2003, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Dunedain ]

[shadow fox]

Originally posted by Yenz:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, but that's a movie. This was a video game, which in terms of the copyright laws are two totally different mediums

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cool then it's ok to do a movie about Duke, since Duke is a video game (I know there's a movie coming, but it was just an example)
Stealing is allways stealing. I would rather hear 3dR saying, we love Matrix and we used their special FX in our game.
I think 3dR did something similar with the Duke Nukem (Nukum) name before.
Just hiding behind bought copyrights isn't nice.
As allways just my thoughts </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you cant do a movie about duke because the is already one out. and about the previous game "duke nukem" before 3D duke there was a 16 bit scroller game by the same name

[Akari]

nah nah nah. Bullet Time means its the bullets own time thing.