Older games and Windows Vista

[bigk]

Hey every one,

I plan to get Window's Vista some time next year.(Home premium) I'm curious does any one know if any of the older games will work with Window's Vista?
For example:

Commander keen
Wolf 3d
Duke 3d
Shadow warrior (I don't own this game, I thinking of getting it. I really liked the demo.)
Quake
Myst series etc.

Will this Dos box program be compatible with Windows: vista? Doesn't this program make older programs work on Windows: XP? (I don't use the program. This programs free right?)

Thank you for your time guys/gals,

Bigk

[Joe Siegler]

You'd have to ask the DOSBox people about DOSBox. That's not our program.

As for direct working - no idea. Nobody at 3DR is running Vista as of this date to my knowledge.

[Qbix]

DOSBox has been tested succesfully on Vista by several people on our forum.
For now we don't have a reason to assume that the compatibility of DOSBox on Vista will be any different then it is on XP.

About running them directly on Vista. There are some issues with it. It seems to relate to video card drivers. (the ones of XP used on Vista have a much better compatibility then the native Vista ones).
This is offcourse for the 32 bit version of Vista.
64 bit will be a different story...... (DOSBox works on that though).

Most Build games (duke3d/shadow warrior) have windows ports nowadays, so they will probably continue to work or be updated.
If they aren't then wait for the next version of DOSBox. Those type of games will get huge speed up. (a few 100 % procent)

[Oasiz]

Isnt it also that 16bit applications wont work in vista at all, or have I misunderstood something ? Most old games are 16bit as far as I can tell, so running them natively shouldnt be possible with vista.
Please corret me If im wrong.

[avatar_58]

Lest we not forget that Vista may require a CPU upgrade yes? Well think how fast DOSBox will run on said CPU. Even when VDMsound is long dead, you'll still get speed from Build engine games and other heavy games.

On the DOSBox forums there are threads of folks testing high end CPUs with a range of games and it is quite clear that speed will no longer be an issue with DOSBox in that era.

[Qbix]

well the 64 bit version of vista doesn't run 16 bit programs.
The 32 bit version does I thought. (at least to the people at vogons)
You may want to read this
http://vogons.zetafleet.com/viewtopi...r=asc&start=20

[avatar_58]

I recommend people do as I do - create DVDs of your older games that are pre-setup with dosbox/front end. That way when Vista comes full swing I won't have to worry about installing them or any setups that require any attention. I'll just pop in my disc, drag everything over and away I go.

[Qbix]

don't forget to unset the read-only attribute then

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by Qbix

don't forget to unset the read-only attribute then

Yep. Although I find since the XP-era I've never had to do that. Copying files off CDs/DVDs never seems to set that attribute. Not sure why that is exactly, as it used to be an issue in win 9x.

Is it pathetic that the first thing I look forward to when I upgrade this PC is DOSBox's performance? I can't wait to see what future AMD/Intel chips can do.

[Spartan_234]

Originally Posted by bigk

Commander keen
Wolf 3d
Duke 3d
Shadow warrior (I don't own this game, I thinking of getting it. I really liked the demo.)
Quake
Myst series etc.

Myst isn't a DOS game, it's Windows 3.1-based. So it should be more compatible with newer Windows versions than those other DOS games, right?

Also, I heard that DOS programs in Windows Vista will be emulated by the use of Microsoft Virtual PC 2007. If that's true, DOS games in newer versions of Windows will likely no longer be an issue. I have Virtual PC 2004 and it emulates an older computer perfectly. It even has the BIOS screens when you start up the virtual computer!

[Llama Gibbz]

As for duke 3d and the quake series.

I would imagine somebody would build a new port if they dont run on vista.

Releasing source code benefits everybody.

[8IronBob]

Well, now that Vista is released, I wonder if anyone tested this out at all...

[Joe Siegler]

Nobody here is running it that I'm aware of.

[Frenkel]

Lon Matero already did compatibility tests with Windows XP and Windows 2000 and ME. Maybe he will do tests with Windows Vista.

[8IronBob]

Well, shortly I should be getting Vista Ultimate in the mail, and getting my HDD swapped to install that, so I'll try running JonoF's port on here with Shadow Warrior and/or Duke 3D Atomic, and see what happens.

[Phayzon]

Originally Posted by bigk

Commander keen
Wolf 3d
Duke 3d
Shadow warrior
Quake
Myst series etc.

CK and Wolf3D should work fine under DosBox, or maybe a Wolf3D port as well.

Sound is choppy in EDuke32/jfDuke, Id imagine jfSW is would be the same.

One of the many many Quake ports are bound to work, havent tried yet.

No idea about Myst.

[Kevin Wolff]

Originally Posted by Spartan_234

Myst isn't a DOS game, it's Windows 3.1-based. So it should be more compatible with newer Windows versions than those other DOS games, right?

Myst doesn't even run very well in Windows 2000, so unless Windows 3.1 compatibility got better since then (yeah right), Myst won't run too good on Vista. You're better off running it an emulator with DOS + Windows 3.1. Or, even better, get the Mac version of the game, and install Basilisk II with System 7, and run it that way. (The Mac version of Myst was always better anyway.)

Quake has official (by id Software) ports to Windows/OpenGL. I see no reason that those would stop working.

Games like Commander Keen, Wolf3D, and Duke3D will probably run ok without sound. All but CK have unofficial Windows ports by now. DOSBox should run all three of those, too, with varying speed.

[Delta]

Originally Posted by Kevin Wolff

(snip)

Games like Commander Keen, Wolf3D, and Duke3D will probably run ok without sound. All but CK have unofficial Windows ports by now. DOSBox should run all three of those, too, with varying speed.

The upcoming version of DOSBox (0.66) will run CPU-intensive games with substantially greater speed. I've been playing with the latest development builds, and they have some great stuff coming.

I can run Duke3D really really smoothly at 320x200, and at playable speeds with 640x480 VESA mode. I can even run Blood and System Shock smoothly. They ran like crap with 0.65, at least for me.

[Symok]

As a related question, I've been trying to run some old-school games through Vista but am always being told that my system doesn't support "full screen" for them. These same games work fine through windows XP command prompt, in full screen.

On the same note, DOSBox runs full screen fine in XP but when I try in vista the refresh rate goes out of the range of my monitor.

Anyone have any idea if anything can be done about this?

[Joe Siegler]

Yesterday I put Windows Vista on my main machine here at 3DR for the purpose of compatibility testing of our older games.

I tried all the old DOS games we have, and not a single one of them works under Vista, either by opening a command prompt, or by clicking. Tried all the compatibility modes, tried the options in compatibility mode. Doesn't work.

Only way to get the old stuff to work at all was with DOSBox. On a positive note, the stuff worked much better in DOSBox in Vista than it did for me in DOSBox in XP. I heard sounds in Monster Bash I haven't heard in YEARS. That was a very nice surprise.

Balls of Steel I could not get to work. The newer Windows based stuff (Max Payne 1/2, Prey, Manhattan Project) I haven't tried yet, but should work, depending on the drivers (which I don't have custom ones for, just the stuff in Windows).

But the old DOS stuff doesn't appear to work AT ALL in Vista without the aid of DOSBox. I'm not done with my research yet, but it appears that's the angle we're going to officially take.

[avatar_58]

I've tried DOSBox on my Vista laptop and she works just as fast as XP. I'm unsure if this CPU is faster than my desktop though, I'll run some tests and see how high my cycles can go.

Older windows games might be an issue though. They could probably be run under something like VMWare or VirtualPC granted they aren't 3D. Most of the older Apogee/3DR games ought to be fine...but I've never tried it so I can't comment.

If Fallout doesn't work then I certainly will thats for sure.

[Joe Siegler]

^ - Well since this is in a forum for our older games, that's what I was talking about. Not Fallout.

Seriously though - I haven't run into one game (except Bio Menace, but that's problematic everywhere) that doesn't seem to work right in DOSBox 0.65 and Vista yet.

[SonnyBonds]

Well as long as they work in DOSbox I don't mind.. running these games directly from Windows isn't that good of an idea in my experience anyway.

[Joe Siegler]

Originally Posted by SonnyBonds

Well as long as they work in DOSbox I don't mind.. running these games directly from Windows isn't that good of an idea in my experience anyway.

For knowledgable folks, yes it's no problem. Unfortunately, a decent percentage of the overall customer base doesn't know what DOS is. We frequently get customers who tell us "What is DOS", or "What's that" when we ask them what directory they installed the game to. Or have no clue how to change a directory. For people like that, if you can't click on it, and have it work perfectly, it doesn't work. Forget advanced concepts like mounting drives in a third party program like DOSBox. THAT is what we have to account for, since it's the majority of customers, I would assume.

If you're posting about our legacy titles on these forums, I almost have to discount you because you know enough to find the answer on your own. You're not the person who needs the support, generally.

[DOSGuy]

Let's go back to the idea that "32-bit Vista" would support 16-bit software, but "64-bit Vista" wouldn't. I haven't seen any mention of 32 or 64-bit versions of Vista in advertising, although I understand that every Vista disk is identical, and the package only determines which version you're licensed for. Does Vista run as a 32-bit OS on 32-bit CPUs and as a 64-bit OS on 64-bit CPUs? I assume that you were using a 64-bit computer for your testing, Joe. Has anyone tried running 16-bit DOS and Windows games on Vista on a 32-bit processor?

[Joe Siegler]

I assume that you were using a 64-bit computer for your testing, Joe. Has anyone tried running 16-bit DOS and Windows games on Vista on a 32-bit processor?

Nice assumption. I am not using a 64bit computer.

[Qbix]

I'll email you the upcoming 0.66 release Joe. (one of these days)
Biomenace runs in it. (We won't mess it up this time on the last day)

A most of the time working (for apogee games always) way to operate dosbox would be people to tell them to install it. Drag the shortcut on the desktop. Drop the game.exe of the game on the shortcut. Perhaps with a screenshot showing the drag and drop operation.

On some forum there is a shell integration reg file for dosbox as well. You can then right click and dosbox should be in the menu somewhere.

These tips might help to aid the less technically inclined persons.

[DOSGuy]

Your main machine isn't 64-bit? What are you using?

[Joe Siegler]

Why does everyone assume we have the biggest and most powerful computers out there? You shouldn't develop your games on computers most people don't have.

Why is this a big deal? Really? And what does it have to do with our old games and Vista? Seems off-topic to me.

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by Joe Siegler

Seriously though - I haven't run into one game (except Bio Menace, but that's problematic everywhere) that doesn't seem to work right in DOSBox 0.65 and Vista yet.

Well Vista doesn't affect Dosbox from my tests. The speed is identical. Hell, the audio seems to skip LESS some reason.

I've also checked a blog which confirms nearly all Apogee DOS and Early windows games run perfectly in VirtualPC, which just happens to be free. I prefer the DOSBox method myself, but it's a nice alternative.

The only thing I might suggest Joe is to bundle dosbox pre-setup with your games like VUgames did with the Sierra Quest collections. It's invisible to the end user. They just run a shortcut and it 'magically' works. Might I suggest if you do this you at least tip your hat to Qbix and co. VUgames just included a small text license, they didn't even acknowledge their work.

[Joe Siegler]

The only thing I might suggest Joe is to bundle dosbox pre-setup with your games like VUgames did with the Sierra Quest collections.

It's not my call to make in that regard. There are some here who would take the opportunity to discontinue the entire past product line and say "forget it". I doubt it will actually come to that though, but I also doubt we'd bundle DOSBox.

Just a gut feeling - it hasn't actually been discussed.

[avatar_58]

I know what you mean. Relying on external utilities can be a tough call considering how little revenue it would bring and how many more support calls may come through.

[DOSGuy]

Originally Posted by Joe Siegler

Why does everyone assume we have the biggest and most powerful computers out there? You shouldn't develop your games on computers most people don't have.

Why is this a big deal? Really? And what does it have to do with our old games and Vista? Seems off-topic to me.

It just surprised me because AMD has been selling 64-bit processors almost exclusively for a few years now, and Intel converted all of their processors not long after. I figured you probably get a new "main machine" every couple of years, so you would pretty much have to be 64-bit. If you're still 32-bit, but you're running Vista, that pretty much just leaves Athlon XP or an older Pentium 4.

So, that's a bummer. I was hoping that Vista would still run 16-bit software on my backup computer (Athlon XP). From the sounds of it, it won't even handle Windows 3.x software, even on a 32-bit computer. That just leaves emulation or virtualization which, as you've noted, will be unfamiliar to a large percentage of the population. I think I hear another nail being hammered into DOS games' coffin.

[Rellik66]

I guess the only option right now would be to state very clearly on the site that Vista is NOT supported with the older titles.

Perhaps Joe could create a page with a matrix of games and which platforms they work on.

[Joe Siegler]

Originally Posted by Rellik66

I guess the only option right now would be to state very clearly on the site that Vista is NOT supported with the older titles.

Perhaps Joe could create a page with a matrix of games and which platforms they work on.

That's part of the point of me doing research into it.

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by DOSGuy

So, that's a bummer. I was hoping that Vista would still run 16-bit software on my backup computer (Athlon XP). From the sounds of it, it won't even handle Windows 3.x software, even on a 32-bit computer. That just leaves emulation or virtualization which, as you've noted, will be unfamiliar to a large percentage of the population. I think I hear another nail being hammered into DOS games' coffin.

Wrong - 32bit Vista still supports 16-bit. It's even still got a "Show 16-bit tasks" option under the Task Manager. I've personally not tried anything yet, but thats because on my widescreen laptop fullscreen dos apps refuse to load. I have to use DOSBox.

As for the coffin nail, perhaps you've missed XP? Many DOS games already don't run, and the ones that do have no sound or have severe crashes and graphical issues. Most will work with VMware, but thats an emulator, and not native support.

Honestly I don't see a problem. Run everything via DOSBox and you are set. Sure some games are slow now, but by the time time Vista has taken XP's marketshare (2-3 years?) your CPU should handle everything. The only issues lie with older 9x games that won't work in Vista. For those I'd suggest Virtual PC.

[DOSGuy]

So many DOS games play properly in Windows XP that I created a wiki to sort out which games work, and which require DOSBox, SB16 emulation, or various virtual machines. Some games play better without DOSBox on Windows XP, notably Secret Agent and Crystal Caves, which have an unemulated border in DOSBox. Windows XP is very good at running EGA games.

With regard to 16-bit software working on 32-bit Vista, are you referring to Windows 3.x software? Joe says that Apogee's DOS games don't work, so I feared the worst for 16-bit software in general. Can anyone give an example of a 16-bit DOS or Windows 3.x program that works on Vista on a 32-bit processor?

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by DOSGuy

So many DOS games play properly in Windows XP that I created a wiki to sort out which games work, and which require DOSBox, SB16 emulation, or various virtual machines. Some games play better without DOSBox on Windows XP, notably Secret Agent and Crystal Caves, which have an unemulated border in DOSBox. Windows XP is very good at running EGA games.

That may be, but doesn't anyone honestly bother? I just run everything through DOSBox because it's easier to troubleshoot if something goes south. With XP's Dos support anything can happen.

With regard to 16-bit software working on 32-bit Vista, are you referring to Windows 3.x software? Joe says that Apogee's DOS games don't work, so I feared the worst for 16-bit software in general. Can anyone give an example of a 16-bit DOS or Windows 3.x program that works on Vista on a 32-bit processor?

I'm just telling you what it says. I've not tried anything 16-bit yet so I'm unsure. DOS apps won't work for me fullscreen, so I can't confirm or discount their ability to run. If I could force them to stay in a window then they'd probably work.

[Phayzon]

Originally Posted by DOSGuy

although I understand that every Vista disk is identical

Nope. Vista comes with 2 DVDs, one for 32bit, one for 64bit.

Originally Posted by DOSGuy

If you're still 32-bit, but you're running Vista, that pretty much just leaves Athlon XP or an older Pentium 4.

He could have chosen to install 32bit instead of 64bit. It doesnt just decide for you depending on your CPU. For example my new laptop (Turion64 X2) has 32bit Vista preinstalled.


EDIT:
Avatar, I dont think DOS apps will run fullscreen even in 32bit with a normal (ie, not widescreen) display. Reason being 320x200 and 640x400 are not supported resolutions any more. Some apps will run those resolutions in windowed mode, some wont even do that (ZDoom, for example, wont run 320 or 640 anymore. But WinMBT [another Doom port] will, could be because they are the only 2 supported resolutions).

[DOSGuy]

Originally Posted by Phayzon

Nope. Vista comes with 2 DVDs, one for 32bit, one for 64bit.

Finally someone explains where the 32 and 64-bit versions come from! Thank you Phayzon!

Joe said he was using a 32-bit processor, so we know he was using the 32-bit version of Vista, so the idea that 32-bit Vista will run 16-bit software, but 64-bit Vista won't, still seems to be out the window. Apogee games don't work on 32-bit Vista. Can anyone give an example of a 16-bit DOS or Windows program that will work in any version of Vista?