God, ROTT has fantastic music

[Joe Siegler]

Originally posted by moonbuzz:
Do yourself a favour and don't look Glass work, that man is a boring composer and if I hear another of his choirs, I'm going to commit murder.

Ah, he's not that bad. I even got Joe to like one of his albums ("Glassworks"). He couldn't make it through all 4 CDs worth of "Einstein on the Beach," though. I'm probably one of the few people who have managed to listen to those CDs from start to finish in one sitting. I made it through Frank Zappa's "Jazz From Hell" in one sitting, too, so you can tell from that what kind of tolerance level I have.

If Glass hadn't worked on "The Truman Show," I don't think the movie would have been as successful as it was. And of course, his work on Koyaanisqatsi was absolutely vital to that movie's success.

Glass's works are not to be scoffed at. I'll grant that a lot of people can't handle his level of repetition. For those of us who can, his works are well worth hearing.



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[Joe Siegler]

Originally posted by Crezzy_man:
Hey, this just in... I came upon some interesting things about "Havana Smooth" from the Apogee FAQ. It says that it's mostly made from things Lee has heard from the Drum Bugle corps. That's not the most striking part of it, but that the fact Joe Siegler actual hates this song. I loved it. It was a great latin song which was IMHO, the best song on Rott. Hey Joe, what don't you like about it?

Joe liked the song until he heard it had Drum Corps roots. Once I told him that, his view changed slightly. I think he does like the song, but he can't admit to himself that it has anything at all to do with Drum Corps.

I can point to specific Drum Corps performances to back up my claim. Listen to the baritone solo in The Guardsmen's 1981 performance of "Tiger of San Pedro." Listen to just about anything that The Americanos have done. There are hints of various years' worth of Blue Devils performances scattered throughout, especially during the last power statement of the theme after the big chromatic chord movement section. Finally, check out The Bridgemen's performance of Chick Corea's "Waiting For Godot" in 1983. I pulled from all of those and more to come up with Havana Smooth.

There are non-corps influences as well. I pulled a lot from an Austin group called 'Beto y los Fairlanes', who were in turn quite strongly influenced by Tito Puente and Latin/Cuban jazz in general. There's a lot of fire in that style of music, and I tried to include just a bit of its heat in Havana Smooth (hence the title of the piece, BTW).

Still, if you want to get down to the basics, you could point to just about any of my songs and say, "There's a bit of Drum Corps in there somewhere." You could even do that for Grabbag, and you'd be right. All of a composer's work is influenced by what the composer sees and hears, and to say that it's possible to completely exclude any part of that influence from one's work is ludicrous. One may be able to lean more towards one style than another, but there's no way to get away from any style 100%. There'll always be something that connects you to your roots.


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[Crezzy_man]

I like the Fretles Bass solo on Cccool myself...
Cccool was a great song. It was the essence that made the levels "Rocky Plateau" and "The Vomitorium" so good (that and jump pads). Nice ambient music.

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It's all a matter of taste, I thought Koyaanisquatsi's music was a total bore, and that the movie only suffered from it.

I'll grant that a lot of people can't handle his level of repetition. For those of us who can, his works are well worth hearing.

Lee, getting down on me is not a fair argument, I've listened to a lot of Glass' works, I have Einstein and Glassworks on CD's, and I used to have Koyaanisquatsi, but I gave it too a friend.

I enjoy Minimalist music, but not Glass. I think that Reich and Young did a much better work in using the minimalist concept. IMO they showed that development is a function of repetitiveness, and that there is great power in the single note, or motif. I fail to see that in Glass, his music bores me, while Young's music is very uplifting and intriguing for me. I think Glass is very full of himself, and thinks that "backing" his music with a lot of high browed arguments, makes it better. That may work on those pop artist who thinks that he is God, but I think it is ridiculous, I saw him talking about the Indian influences on his music, and I was laughing my ass off.

Glass's works are not to be scoffed at.

Lee, I love your works, but I also have a very thought of opinion, based on countless of listening hours, and for me, Hearing is Believing, and yes, I scoff at Glass.

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"It wasn't supposed to turn out like this.." (Sebastian "Doyle" Krist)
ROTT2: Return Of The Triad

Our wines leave you nothing to hope for (misunderstandabilationist)

[Joe Siegler]

Originally posted by Crezzy_man:
I like the Fretles Bass solo on Cccool myself...

Song reference time again. Fire up the song, "Welcome to the Pleasuredome" by Frankie Goes To Hollywood. The title track from the album of the same name. You'll hear the influence.


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[Joe Siegler]

Originally posted by moonbuzz:
Lee, getting down on me is not a fair argument, I've listened to a lot of Glass' works, I have Einstein and Glassworks on CD's, and I used to have Koyaanisquatsi, but I gave it too a friend.

Sorry, no slight was intended. I was referring to people who react to 3 minutes' worth of Glass or any other minimalist the same way that they react to someone scraping their fingernails across a blackboard. Those people are in the majority in this country, unfortunately. My wife is part of this majority, believe it or not. I did not intend to insult, and I apologize if I have done so.

I enjoy Minimalist music, but not Glass. I think that Reich and Young did a much better work in using the minimalist concept. IMO they showed that development is a function of repetitiveness, and that there is great power in the single note, or motif. I fail to see that in Glass, his music bores me, while Young's music is very uplifting and intriguing for me.

I honestly can't say that I've heard any of the works of Reich or Young. I've never even heard the names, so I wouldn't qualify to comment on their works. I have heard a fair share of Glass's works, and a bit of Adams, so by no means do I consider myself an authority on minimalism. I simply know that I like what I've heard of Glass's works. There's something in the way he manipulates chord progressions and simple rhythms over an extended period of time that fascinates me. It's rather trance-like in nature, and I enjoy listening to it.

I think Glass is very full of himself, and thinks that "backing" his music with a lot of high browed arguments, makes it better.

I've never heard him speak. I do not ascribe any godlike powers to him. I merely enjoy what I've heard of his music.

Hearing is Believing, and yes, I scoff at Glass.

Forgive me, but I must express a difference of opinion here. Not in the defense of Philip Glass or any other artist, mind you - instead, in the defense of music in general. Please allow me to explain.

I try my best not to scoff at anyone's work. This is in part because it is a dangerous thing to do, especially when I'm laying my own works out for others to hear. The "what goes around, comes around" saying really applies in this business.

There may be some works I don't like, but I can appreciate and admire the effort that went into them. There are other works that I might make light of (certain country & western songs come to mind), but the people involved in that industry are more likely to make fun of my stuff than I am of theirs. I usually take the route of parody than criticism, though. That way, everyone can have a bit of fun.

The main difference of opinion I have is with your following comment, made in your original post:

Do yourself a favour and don't look Glass work....

You have said that you've spent countless hours of listening time to develop your opinions of Glass and others. I admire your efforts a great deal - I've spent similar hours on other genres, and I know what's involved. However, I feel that it is better to encourage people to listen to music and make their own judgements, rather than discourage them from listening based on one's own opinion of someone's work.

Case in point: as a general rule, I do not like compositions and performances by a certain soprano sax artist (who shall remain nameless - for purposes of discussion, let's call him "Player X"). If someone tries to get me to listen to his stuff, I may go "blecch" and ask that they change the station. However, if I happen to run across someone who wants to study saxophone music in general, I'm not going to tell them to "stay away from Player X - he's boring and not worth hearing." Music is best approached with a positive point of view by those who wish to make a career out of it, I believe. Therefore, I might encourage the person to listen to Player Y and Player Z, without mentioning Player X. I won't hesitate to give my opinion on Player X if asked point blank, but I'll do it in a strict first person point of view. I may even encourage the other person to listen to Player X and see if he agrees with me. I do my best not to discourage anyone from listening to anyone's music, though, regardless of how I may feel about it.

Telling someone not to waste their time listening to someone's works is not productive, IMHO, regardless of one's own opinions on the music in question. The person you replied to expressed an interest in the style, and had a composer to go by as a representative of that style. I feel it is best to encourage anyone interested in music to study anything they can lay their hands upon. In the end, they may agree with your opinion that Glass's music is crap, but they should be allowed and encouraged to make that assessment on their own.

Forgive the rant, and please do not misconstrue what I'm saying as criticism or "put-downs." I keep my opinions to myself most of the time, but on this occasion I felt I had something that merited being voiced. Thanks for reading.



[This message has been edited by Lee3DR (edited 12-18-2000).]

Thanx for that eye opener Lee.

I am, naturally, a fan and an amateur musician, so I tend to shed my criticizm without second thought, but I do see your point and I have taken the liberty of editing my previous post in order to correct some of my mishap.

back to the topic, my favourite ROTT tune is Stairs

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"It wasn't supposed to turn out like this.." (Sebastian "Doyle" Krist)
ROTT2: Return Of The Triad

Our wines leave you nothing to hope for (misunderstandabilationist)

Moonbuzz thanks for the link and advice.

I'll check him out anyway - one man's meat is another man's poison

Cheers,
Tony

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- Tony

[This message has been edited by bedford (edited 12-19-2000).]

[Joe Siegler]

but he can't admit to himself that it has anything at all to do with Drum Corps.

That's because it doesn't. There's no people marching around with instruments there. There's no "drum corps sound" in there at all. I will NEVER believe this.

Not until you can actually get me video of some drum corps actually marching to this song.

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[Crezzy_man]

Uh, did you say you were going to make a cd of the ROTT music or not (that was the opening discussion you know)?

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[Joe Siegler]

Originally posted by Joe3DR:
That's because it doesn't. There's no people marching around with instruments there.

So, since there are no people sitting in a concert hall playing stringed instruments on "Mist Ache," does that mean it is not an orchestral piece? Does it mean that it does not have an "orchestral sound?" Similarly, since there are no people actually playing hard rock guitars, keyboards, and drums in "Grabbag," does that mean it is not a hard rock piece and does not have a "hard rock sound?" Your logic does not hold, my friend. Influences are influences, and they can be heard wherever they exist.

Not until you can actually get me video of some drum corps actually marching to this song.

Anybody want to volunteer? I'll gladly provide the arrangements.




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[Joe Siegler]

Originally posted by Crezzy_man:
Uh, did you say you were going to make a cd of the ROTT music or not (that was the opening discussion you know)?

I said I'd like to do so. Don't see it happening anytime soon, sad to say. Too much other stuff to get done right now.

[Joe Siegler]

Originally posted by Joe3DR:
Not until you can actually get me video of some drum corps actually marching to this song.

On further thought, I can do exactly this. I'll bring up my tape of the Guardsmen's 1980 DCI Finals performance of "Tiger of San Pedro" tomorrow, and I'll let you hear from whence I got some of my inspiration for the piece.

You asked for proof. Are you willing to sit through it?



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hehe
you have to take pictures of that

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"It wasn't supposed to turn out like this.." (Sebastian "Doyle" Krist)
ROTT2: Return Of The Triad

Our wines leave you nothing to hope for (misunderstandabilationist)

[JR Ewing]

I've been reading this thread and am really suprised at how many people really like ROTT music. Add me to this long list because I think it's some of the best music around. A lot of those tracks sound great with my YAMAHA Soft Synthesizer software. While I'm thinking about it, does anyone know where I might find other synthesizers to install on my computer to listen to the tracks with those voices?

I really think the CD thing is a great idea. Definately something to consider.

Also I would like to know if anyone know of any midi maker software? I have one but its really old and you can't do much with it. I'm sure you can do much more with a more modern midi maker program. Please let me know.

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Ryan Stroup
Classic Gaming Administrator

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[Joe Siegler]

Originally posted by JR Ewing:
Also I would like to know if anyone know of any midi maker software? I have one but its really old and you can't do much with it. I'm sure you can do much more with a more modern midi maker program. Please let me know.

Check out the Shareware Music Machine's sequencer page, located at http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/cat/MIDI_SEQUENCERS , and look through the listings for your OS. You can also find some softsynths and a ton of other music programs at http://www.hitsquad.com/smm , which is their main page.



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Originally posted by Egotte:
Which tracks on the ROTT soundtrack were those of R. Prince?

RotT tunes by Bobby Prince:
excalibr.mid - Excalibur
gazz!.mid - Gazz!
here_boy.mid - Here Boy!
rise.mid - Rise
work_day.mid - Work Day

[Crezzy_man]

Uhh... If you're not going to make a cd of the soundtrack, is there a place where I can get it on MP3 (like what doomworld is to the doom soundtrack)?

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[This message has been edited by Crezzy_man (edited 12-27-2000).]

[Joe Siegler]

To my knowledge, no official MP3s of any music used in Rise of the Triad exist.


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[moron]

just rip it from the midi's you can use winamp to convert anything to wave then just incode it


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[Crezzy_man]

That would be great, but...
1. Winamp doesn't do that with midis, only waves (well, it's like that with my computer)

2. Why would I want to mp3ize my midis when I can listen to the on midis (though it would be nice to make a cd)

3. I have a Soundblaster Live! which means inferiour quality midi. Why encode, modify and take all that time to make a cd of midi when I can get better sounding ones with a different card (which I don't want to buy a new one, and if I did, I wouldn't know where to look)

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[Flaose]

A midi to mp3 conversion would be essentially pointless. If mp3s ever did come out, I'd hope that they were touched up(like what Bobby Prince did with the DOOM Music)

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[Crezzy_man]

Originally posted by Flaose:
A midi to mp3 conversion would be essentially pointless.

Not exactly. If you put your midis to mp3 (or wav), then you can make an audio cd of them so you can play them anywhere with a cd player, but I don't want to do this because my soundcard doesn't sound good enough for that. I know I can get better midis, but I need a new soundcard.

PS If anybody knows where to get a really, really good soundfont bank which you could question your own existence to(about 30 or 40 megs) then please let me know.


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[This message has been edited by Crezzy_man (edited 12-29-2000).]

[Dr Cain]

Originally posted by Crezzy_man:

PS If anybody knows where to get a really, really good soundfont bank which you could question your own existence to(about 30 or 40 megs) then please let me know.

Try: http://thesoundsite.ismi.net/

The download speed sux major ass, but you'll have to live with it

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You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say, can and will be misquoted, then used against you.

[Crezzy_man]

Hey guys, just to let you know, I'm going to post a "The Best Soundcard for Midi" post on the Hardware forum because this is the time but not the place. If anybody wants to help me out, just go to the forum (please help me)

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[Dukefan]

Sound Blaster Live sucks for MIDI? How so? Looking to buy one myself...

Anyway, those of us who don't have a fancy wavetable card have to make do with wavetable emulators. Timidity is the best one I have found, and it's especially good for converting MIDi to WAV. I've made a CD or two out of WAVs I made with Timidity. Check it out. If you don't like your SBLive, you might like this better.

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[Crezzy_man]

Crap. It is very slow, and I have DSL. Ilt's downloading only at, like, 1.3 kbs! It's not fair! It's just not fair!!!!!

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[Crezzy_man]

My god this sounds good. Thanks for the tip.

By the way, the SB Live's midi doesn't nessecairly suck, but it's not the best. It's definitely not the best. Some of the intruments need work (synth basses, polysynth, trombone for example)
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[This message has been edited by Crezzy_man (edited 12-30-2000).]

[bonch]

Wow, this is great, I just discovered this thread. I too have always found the music of ROTT amazing!

Heh, what I did was fire up WinGroove, a software synthesizer, and just output the MIDIs to WAV and burned a CD. True, WinGroove is not the most amazing soundwise, but it's the only way I have to avoid FM MIDI. I ran grabbag.mid through it to hear it when I did my second Grabbag cover.

Lee Jackson definitely has a "sound". I played an older game a while back and was able to recognize the music as Lee's work--honest to god. One of my favorite game music composers!

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BonchOnline E-mail: [email protected] ICQ: 44940200

My new microsopic, nano-sig, seen here magnified 12x: .

[Dukefan]

Originally posted by bonch:
True, WinGroove is not the most amazing soundwise, but it's the only way I have to avoid FM MIDI

Read my above post. Timidity is better and it's free!



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[Swingball]

Ah..... Drum Corps. What a wonderful thing to stumble upon while looking at ROTT stuff. just a few thoughts and questions to add:

1. I would love to see arrangements of ROTT sent to a drum corps. better yet, played by a drum corps. go for it lee.

2. if arrangements are provided, would it be possible to have a test run with my high school marching band (which is extremely drum corps style) e-mail me with reply lee.

3. What is your favorite DC? Me.... Blue Devils, SCV, and Blue Knights.

4. What is your favorite DC show? me.... big bad and blue. And age of reverence (SCV 2000)

I know... a few questions are off topic. sorry. go flame me or something. i love gaming, rott, and drum corps. it's really cool for me to learn that one of my favorite gaming composers shares this passion.

~me

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[Joe Siegler]

Originally posted by Swingball:
2. if arrangements are provided, would it be possible to have a test run with my high school marching band (which is extremely drum corps style)

I really need to hear from a band director for something of this sort. I've been burned in the past on arranging stuff, so I'm really careful with deals of this sort now.

3. What is your favorite DC? Me.... Blue Devils, SCV, and Blue Knights.

4. What is your favorite DC show? me.... big bad and blue. And age of reverence (SCV 2000)

I'm a huge Madison Scouts fan. I also like the Phantom Regiment, as well as certain past versions of the Blue Devils and SCV.

As for favorite shows, my #1 favorite would be Madison's 1988 show. They won the DCI Championship that year. My wife and I were members of Friends of DCI back then, so we had great seats (45 yard-line) for all of their shows. You have never heard a drum corps crowd go as crazy as that one did when Madison was announced as the winner. You could have easily heard the crowd from across the parking lots and on the highway - it was that loud. BTW, we spent the entire week in Kansas City for the 1988 and 1989 DCI Championships. If you can do so, I highly recommend it. Much fun.

My second favorite show would have to be Phantom Regiment's 1996 show. Shostakovich - good lord, what an incredible sound. I sometimes go back to that year's videotape and play just the last couple of minutes of their show, over and over. I can't imagine a better way to wrap up a performance. Completely amazing and totally unbelievable. Toss in the emotions on their drum major's face, and you've got something that deserves repeated watchings.

Some of my other favorite shows, in no particular order:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Phantom Regiment - 1989 (New World Symphony)<LI>Phantom Regiment - 1981 and 1982 (Spartacus)<LI>Star of Indiana - 1990 (Belshazzar's Feast)<LI>Star of Indiana - 1991 (Roman Images)<LI>Garfield Cadets - 1983 (West Side Story)<LI>Guardsmen - 1980 (they did the ultimate version of Tiger of San Pedro that year)<LI>Bridgemen - 1980 (War Between the States)<LI>Madison Scouts - 1979 (first drum corps show I'd ever seen live)<LI>Crossmen - 1981 (we had two Crossmen alums in Longhorn Band when I was at UT)<LI>Crossmen - 1989 (imagine hearing them at 8:00am from the 50 yard line, halfway up Arrowhead Stadium - what a wake-up call!!!)<LI>Blue Devils - 1980, 1986<LI>Santa Clara Vanguard - 1979, 1986, 1987<LI>Cavaliers - 1984, 1986<LI>Northern Aurora - 1988<LI>Suncoast Sound - 1984<LI>Boston Crusaders - 2000[/list]
For those that I didn't list songs or show titles, you can find them on http://www.corpsreps.com .


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[Swingball]

all i can say is... cool.


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[Joe Siegler]

Lee, you remember that audiotape you made for me post ROTT / pre Duke3D? Had most of the ROTT music on it. It's probably the only copy in the entire world.

Also had some embryonic Duke3D tunes on it, too.

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Ok, non American here, what the heck are those Drum Corps?

------------------
"It wasn't supposed to turn out like this.." (Sebastian "Doyle" Krist)
ROTT2: Return Of The Triad

Our wines leave you nothing to hope for (misunderstandabilationist)

[Joe Siegler]

Originally posted by Joe3DR:
Lee, you remember that audiotape you made for me post ROTT / pre Duke3D? Had most of the ROTT music on it. It's probably the only copy in the entire world.

Also had some embryonic Duke3D tunes on it, too.

Forgot about that. You still have it? Maybe it's worth digitizing.



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[Joe Siegler]

Originally posted by moonbuzz:
Ok, non American here, what the heck are those Drum Corps?

http://www.dci.org

It's a very American phenomenon. It's rooted in the military drum and bugle units from WWI, but has evolved to include much from the high school and college marching band genres since. Picture a modern marching band without any woodwinds, with baritone horns instead of trombones, and with contrabass horns instead of Sousaphones.

The music they play is anything but military nowadays. I've seen adaptations of "Tommy" by The Who performed on the field. You name it, it's probably been performed. Check out http://www.corpsreps.com for a list of what groups have done in the past.


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[Crezzy_man]

Really? I'm canadian so I don't know much about that, but my high school band kicks ass nonetheless.

BTW - No trombones? What the hell? (I play trombone myself you know!)

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[Flaose]

Trumpets own the world

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The User Apologizes in Advance for Consumed/Wasted Bandwidth

[Crezzy_man]

I don't care. Nothing shall beat the Dual-Thayered valve Bass Trombone.

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