Planning on designing open-world environment, is a GTA clone possible?

[8IronBob]

This may be a big challenge, and I'm wondering if BUILD would allow me to do this (with today's technology, it would hardly bottleneck, I'm quite sure), but I'm looking to design a big metropolis with a fictional name, where you have to rid a whole city of alien gangs, and recapture strongholds throughout the town.

To make like GTA, tho, you would have situations that you would only start out in a fraction of the city, and would have to capture strongholds to unlock other parts of town with keycards allowing you access into another part of town, etc... These would be sealed subway tunnels, sealed toll bridges with high river banks, and so on, so forth, and underpasses, which you would need to unlock to get into other parts of town (which keycards will be given to you when you complete a major alien stronghold in that part of town).

Of course, such a thing would have to use the whole BUILD grid, in order to make a whole town, and having open-ended missions like wiping out alien gangs, and rescuing cacooned babes, and such would be tedious to build, not to mention all the stores in town where you pick up weapons and ammo, armor, get patched up with health at clinics and restaurants, etc... Would this type of level take at least a year, would you say? Did anyone design a map like this at all? I'm just wondering, because a map like this would definitely push JonoF's and BUILD's engine to its limits...

[Sang]

The gameplay idea itself sounds possible to me, but the grid really isn't all that big for open-ended maps so it'll be pretty difficult to squeeze in an entire city in one map.

[eyceguy]

you *might* be able to get away with something like gta3's setup where each portion is loaded on demand (eg going from stauton to portland) what I would think would have to be done is use eduke32 to use game variables (they dont reset on level change) and maybe using secret exits with correct tags to effectivly change from level to level. Again you would have to use gamevars to track where the player is coming from so you could overide the scroll lock starting position.

eg you have cities A-B-C-D in a linear format linked just like shown. so if you go from C to B you wouldnt start in map B like you traveled there from city A.

if you chose to go forward with this lemme know, I had some base code for a gta2-esque mod that never got off the ground because Camera's can't look straight down, but you could use the code as a base for a GTA3 type mod

[Telee]

It would definitely be possible - if Tekwar can do it (sort of), why can't eduke? It would be difficult because of the grid limit, but eyceguy's suggestion could get rid of that problem.

[8IronBob]

Whew, well, it'll be quite some time before I know what type of fictional city to put together, using Duke's stock textures, and aliens. Also, as you progress through the city, I think it's only fitting that the alien gangs get harder, and harder as you make your way from one stronghold to another, with aliens that use bigger weapons, and tougher to kill, up until you fight the big boss in a sports arena to take back the city and end the level. I know that something like New York or Chicago-type cities would be impossible because of the Build size limitation. However, a small, urban city would probably be something to consider. Just as long as you have like a five or six block downtown area, maybe a 10 block apartment/suburb area, a factory/industry area, of sorts, of course you need an airport neighborhood, maybe a boat dock area, and such, and whatever a good GTA-style game should have... I'm gonna have to see how many decent-sized blocks I can put into this, it'll be a looong time before things are finalized, and laid into the ground.

[Telee]

Originally Posted by 8IronBob

I know that something like New York or Chicago-type cities would be impossible because of the Build size limitation.

Not really - Premium TC did it pretty well.

http://msdn.planetduke.gamespy.com/revpremium.shtml

[Daedolon]

Sounds quite much like one of the mods I was working on (haven't had any time to work on duke so it's definately not a priority) which was inspired a lot by TekWar.

Yes, it's easily done, if you just had a bigger team than just one guy.

[DeeperThought]

Originally Posted by eyceguy

and maybe using secret exits with correct tags to effectivly change from level to level.

Why would he need to do that? Couldn't he just detect when the player is in certain sectors and then use the startlevel command to move the player to the right map?

[eyceguy]

Originally Posted by DeeperThought

Why would he need to do that? Couldn't he just detect when the player is in certain sectors and then use the startlevel command to move the player to the right map?

That is true. Really my post was more theory than anything. I didn't put too much thought into it and the secret exits was the first thing that jumped into my mind

But now that you mention it the startlevel would be better for a mod like this.

[Hellbound]

For me the whole idea is impossible. Why? Because of amount of map making.

[Bonesnapper]

While it is possible, its just strenuous. You'd have to setup a hub map system (like Tek War). This would break some realism of course. Also you'd have to make multiple versions of maps if you wanted special events to take course. There is no way you could fit it all into one map without making really bland maps (no big details.) Shops and such are OVERLY possible. I remember one TC had a working money system and everything. (I forgot its name, but it was coded by Reaper_Man and all the code was encrypted)

[Telee]

Yeah - it'd be kinda difficult to fit it into Mapster/JFBuild's limits, although it can be possible. You might have to make the maps even smaller if you want detail (if you're going to continue with the mod make it classic - the many load screens with HRP would be hell).

It'd take a long time to map, but if you have a large and reliable team you can complete it.

[zchri9]

well i can say it would take a hell of a lot of time but completely possible just have to edit the cons a hell of a lot and models sprites actions well everything i say make it like postal 2 because it would be harder to do it in third perons lets go first person GTA wit Duke

[eyceguy]

Originally Posted by Telee

it'd be kinda difficult to fit it into Mapster/JFBuild's limits

Honestly I don't think that would be *too* much of an issue. If you have seen the roch maps they are incredibly detailed and yet the were make for 1.4 duke. If you look at GTA3 Screens, you can begin to visualize how to optimize some areas to reduce the number of walls.

IMO the only part that i could see as an issue would be sectors with the new limit capped at 4096, but even then I think It would be fine. With walls and sprites at 16384, there should be no problem there

EDIT: ignore the attachment, i was orginally gonna say something else that pertained to it, but later removed that portion, and forgot to remove the attachement

[zchri9]

well i think this gta clone should have daytime and nightime like time slowly changes from day to night then i would fuc*ing love it

[eyceguy]

Originally Posted by zchri9

well i think this gta clone should have daytime and nightime like time slowly changes from day to night then i would fuc*ing love it

while do-able that would require that the code goes through each wall, floor and ceiling to change the shade to the correct variable, and on top of that you would have to change the skybox to match the time of day.

now while the code *might* be simple (while loop), in my opinion the time and resources would be better spent elsewhere, like the mapping.

[DeeperThought]

We seem to have reached an odd point in Duke history where there are more people around writing code than there are making maps. Not to imply that coders can't also make maps, but generally it isn't their primary focus. Anyway, it seems like mapping is the bottleneck in most of the ongoing projects right now. What I tell people is, just make your f*cking map and don't worry about the code -- the code can come later and won't be that hard compared to the tedium of making the map(s).

[Daedolon]

Yeah, that's true. I got alot of coding done but I can't get to finish a simple city map with few blocks of buildings.

[Thedutchjelle]

Originally Posted by zchri9

well i think this gta clone should have daytime and nightime like time slowly changes from day to night then i would fuc*ing love it

But then all the shadows must be movable to-- like long shadows at morning, short at midday, long at evening and then based on lights for night.

[Daedolon]

You can command the shading of the sectors with con code, as you can also create a timer to manage a global sun angle variable to control it.

[Thedutchjelle]

Originally Posted by Daedolon

Yeah, that's true. I got alot of coding done but I can't get to finish a simple city map with few blocks of buildings.

Opposite here -- I can't code at all, but i luv to make maps.

[8IronBob]

Even with today's hardware technology, would the bottleneck be nearly as significant this day in age, as opposed to when the game was released more than a decade ago?

[Sang]

Originally Posted by eyceguy

IMO the only part that i could see as an issue would be sectors with the new limit capped at 4096, but even then I think It would be fine. With walls and sprites at 16384, there should be no problem there

Assuming your sectors will all have four walls - 4096*4 = 16 384

So if the current sector count is a problem for you, the wall count will be as well.

[Daedolon]

Ah damn, this thread inspires me to work on the mod, I really should get my HDD from my older computer and just finish the map since it's not a big deal.

[eyceguy]

Originally Posted by Sang

Assuming your sectors will all have four walls - 4096*4 = 16 384

So if the current sector count is a problem for you, the wall count will be as well.

lol i didnt even think of the basic math there

but really i dont think the limits are too much of an issue. even looking at the roch maps that were made for 1.4/1.5 duke and then looking at GTA3 screenshots, to me it looks like limits wouldn't be that much of a problem.

of course one would have to do some optimizations/minor architecture work.

[Daedolon]

Remember that you can do a lot architecture with models (by covering walls with them, balconies and wall alcoves ie.) which are counted as sprites.

[Bonesnapper]

Originally Posted by Daedolon

Remember that you can do a lot architecture with models (by covering walls with them, balconies and wall alcoves ie.) which are counted as sprites.

Yeah except models dont have hit detection down right.

[Daedolon]

Then use invisible, blocking sprites. Or at least you can have a lot of detail in tall buildings where you can't get access to.

[eyceguy]

i have to agree with daedolon on this. the hit detection isn't that much of a hinderance. for the stuff that needs it the standard hit detection is enough eg light poles, fire hydrants, stuff like that. other stuff such as a hanging street light, dont really need hit detection. so hit detection shouldn't be a problem

and even if you look at current games you'll still see some model clipping, although this is becoming less and less of a problem.

[Bonesnapper]

Originally Posted by eyceguy

and even if you look at current games you'll still see some model clipping, although this is becoming less and less of a problem.

But not like this.

[eyceguy]

Originally Posted by Bonesnapper

But not like this.

There's always Clipdist

[DeeperThought]

Originally Posted by eyceguy

There's always Clipdist

Yes, and it's also important to have a dummy tile (either an actual tile in the 8-bit art file or a fake one defined with the dummytile def command) giving correct dimensions for the sprite. Used in combination with clipdist, this solves most clipping problems.

[Thedutchjelle]

Originally Posted by eyceguy

There's always Clipdist

So.. by turning the clipdist to 0, a floor sprite wont go through a wall?

[Daedolon]

No. With clipdist of 0, the player and other actors can walk through the actor with clipdist set to 0.

[8IronBob]

Well, even tho the limitations of Duke's Build engine may be tough to swallow, I'd have to say that Shadow Warrior's Build may be more forgiving, as far as what you can do, from memory. I may even switch off and do a map in Shadow Warrior based in a fictional Japanese city where you fight off ninja gangs wanting to take the city. That could be another awesome move as well. After all, a fictional Tokyo-type city would be awesome in a way. Duke in a fictional Los Angeles/San Diego-type town, or even Miami, a la Vice City would be cool, too, but Shadow Warrior seems like it has better margin for error than Duke's Build does, to me anyway.

[eyceguy]

are you talking about using classic build?
because there is mapster32 which is superior to both, IMO.

[8IronBob]

Heh, all right. Since Duke 3D does take place in L.A., I'm probably sure that I would probably need to play GTA San Andreas more than once to get a good environment done just right... Then again, most Build and Mapster-based editors won't allow you to even make a map that big. I dunno, I may probably design a town somewhere between the size of Liberty City and San Andreas. Maybe another Stilwater (Saints Row) sized map? Not too sure.

[FXS]

Hello,

You can edit the variable "editorgridextent" in the file "mapster32.cfg", if you rise the value, you can edit much time bigger levels:

; Grid limits
editorgridextent = 524288

The only problem is, that eduke32 only support 16384 walls and only 16384 sprites.

bye,
FXS

[8IronBob]

Heh, that's all right. I'll make do with the default Build values, and build as big of a city that I possibly can...

[DeeperThought]

Originally Posted by 8IronBob

Heh, that's all right. I'll make do with the default Build values, and build as big of a city that I possibly can...

Wow, what a come down from your first post.