What you think it will happen in court ? - Page 2

Monkey Butler · 06-01-2009, 05:25 PM

That wasn't directed at you mate. More at the constant "it's a hoax" "T2 didn't pay 3DR" "3DR are for sure going to win" "the game's only 60% finished" shit that gets posted around here.

And just for the record, I'm not American either.

WoodenSword · 06-01-2009, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monkey Butler

That wasn't directed at you mate. More at the constant "it's a hoax" "T2 didn't pay 3DR" "3DR are for sure going to win" "the game's only 60% finished" shit that gets posted around here.

And just for the record, I'm not American either.

Don't take them seriously, i am pretty sure that jaimie10, for example, was joking...

jaimie10 · 06-01-2009, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WoodenSword

Don't take them seriously, i am pretty sure that jaimie10, for example, was joking...

Yeah I was

I wish it were a hoax, but unfortunately it's not.

gamerfreak · 06-01-2009, 10:29 PM

All this over a game that took 12 years to develop and used over $20 million over. I tell you, people are taking entertainment to the grave. Just to release a game you have to go to court. That's pathetic. Even the reason is. Sure it's a high amount of money that Take-Two "supplied" 3D Realms with, but with all due respect, I think it's nothing to fight over. 3D Realms, hope you win. What's left of you guys. It sucks ya'll had to disband.

edithegodfather · 06-02-2009, 07:55 AM

On the contrary, that's a lot o' dough to fight over; they're not like multi bilion $ companies.

JobivanHiob · 06-02-2009, 03:41 PM

so 2 days left until court day!

I hope it turns out good and we hear about it on this very day

WoodenSword · 06-03-2009, 04:32 PM

one day before the hearing!!!

So up until now:

49% people believe =>The judge agrees to a full court case
37% people believe => They decide to negotiate and settle the case out of court
14% people believe => the case will be dismissed

76% people believe => The restraining order will not be applied
24% people believe => The restraining order will be applied

In a couple of hours we will find out how valid our little poll came out...

JobivanHiob · 06-03-2009, 04:38 PM

if we hear from it. Maybe 3DR and Take 2 remain quiet.

WoodenSword · 06-03-2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JobivanHiob

if we hear from it. Maybe 3DR and Take 2 remain quiet.

it thought it's a public hearing, isn't it?

Kelshir · 06-03-2009, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WoodenSword

it thought it's a public hearing, isn't it?

Most likely, we need someone that lives in that area that can be there!

SplatterHappy · 06-03-2009, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamerfreak

All this over a game that took 12 years to develop and used over $20 million over. I tell you, people are taking entertainment to the grave. Just to release a game you have to go to court. That's pathetic. Even the reason is. Sure it's a high amount of money that Take-Two "supplied" 3D Realms with, but with all due respect, I think it's nothing to fight over. 3D Realms, hope you win. What's left of you guys. It sucks ya'll had to disband.

The $20 million you quote was funded completely out of 3DR's pocket. The only money they got from Take Two was $2.5 million last July "in connection with an as of yet unannounced game". $2.5 million is peanuts in the game industry... as posted in another thread, Valve is planning on spending $10 million just on advertising for Left 4 Dead 2.

IMO, Take Two just has an axe to grind with 3DR. Google "Take Two accounting fraud" some time...

Alhexx · 06-04-2009, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelshir

Most likely, we need someone that lives in that area that can be there!

Click here.

SplatterHappy · 06-04-2009, 02:16 PM

I now believe absolutely nothing will happen in court (or did, since it should have started some 3 hrs ago): Looking up the case (index no. 601457-2009) again, I see that a "Notice of Removal" was filed on 5-29-2009.

I'm assuming this would have been Take Two filing this since they are the plaintiff. I'm no lawyer, but from what I've been able to glean this would indicate that Take Two has dropped the case (or at least the "restraining order" request).

I may be wrong, so if anyone of a more legal or paralegal background out there could verify this, I'd be grateful.

Here's the link to the above: http://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/iscr...No=601457-2009
(you'll have to input the letters/numbers in the box on the right of the page to get to it.. it's a human being check.

)

Firstperson · 06-04-2009, 02:55 PM

So NOW WHAT? If the case has been "removed", they BETTER have an explaination soon.

SplatterHappy · 06-04-2009, 03:02 PM

On further digging, this may just be a technicality where it's removed from federal court and entered into the state court system (or vice-versa in some cases).

I think I've misread the meaning of this, but like I said.. I'm not a lawyer.

Floodge · 06-04-2009, 05:17 PM

CASE STATUS:
ACTIVE

they probably just filed a notice for 3DR to remove something?

Also LAST UPDATE:
06-04-2009 3:00PM

When the hearing was to start....

lordlonelobo · 06-04-2009, 05:40 PM

I looked around, and found that a "removal" is a removal of the case from State court and into Federal court:

Quote:

Federal courts have two forms of jurisdiction. General jurisdiction covers normal civil litigation subject to two conditions. One, the two parties must come from two different states. Two, the damages claimed in the lawsuit must be at least $75,000.

Both of these conditions are met.

Quote:

What this means is that, so long as both participants are US citizens, a general jurisdiction case can be heard in at least one state court as well. Either party can move for removal of the case to Federal court, which they may do for a variety of strategic reasons. Federal courts often have a shorter docket, meaning that the case may be heard more quickly than in state court.

This could explain why the Notice of Filing of Removal was filed. If Apogee did it, it's to expedite the process and hopefully get on with their company, and reduce legal costs (faster court case = less time paying lawyers)

Unfortunately it doesn't specify who filed it.

Additionally, the Federal courts have a simplified pleading procedure. Possibly another reason why the removal was filed.

SplatterHappy · 06-04-2009, 05:41 PM

11:00 am Eastern time. 8 and 1/2 hrs ago. I'm sure it's long over now since it was only in regards to the restraining order. Wonder how it turned out?

@lordlonelobo: Thanks for the clarification on that!

Edit: Maybe since the filing of the "notice of removal", the session for today wasn't held and a new date will be set for a hearing in federal court? Gah.. the legal system.. makes my head want to explode.

lordlonelobo · 06-04-2009, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SplatterHappy

11:00 am Eastern time. 8 and 1/2 hrs ago. I'm sure it's long over now since it was only in regards to the restraining order. Wonder how it turned out?

@lordlonelobo: Thanks for the clarification on that!

Edit: Maybe since the filing of the "notice of removal", the session for today wasn't held and a new date will be set for a hearing in federal court? Gah.. the legal system.. makes my head want to explode.

Well, I'm not a lawyer, I don't know for sure, but that's what I was able to find.

If it was 3DR, it definitely looks like it might be a better deal in the end, what with a faster hearing time + simplified pleading.

WoodenSword · 06-05-2009, 05:47 AM

Any more news on that?

No game journalist is on this?

lordlonelobo · 06-05-2009, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WoodenSword

Any more news on that?

No game journalist is on this?

Well, the latest update is now 6/5/09 at 9 AM...

WoodenSword · 06-05-2009, 06:23 AM

Yes it seems that most likely 3d realms wanted that notice:

Quote:

Rightly or wrongly, this is the conventional wisdom. And rightly or wrongly, many attorneys representing defendants in state court are quick to consider removal as an initial step.

http://www.shapirosher.com/news/Remo...deralCourt.htm

Also:

Quote:

In general it is believed that federal courts favor defendants.

http://www.kevinlucey.com/tips/state...eral-court.asp

mbutterman · 06-05-2009, 08:16 PM

I've enjoyed playing a few titles 3DR and I would like to claim a certain amount of loyalty to them but this situation seems to be the exception to that.

1. I have to remember that this is a business that deals with contracts and expectations of the parties that agree to those contracts. Waiting a decade to deliver DNF seems excessive to the type of product being developed. It's totally understandable that T2 would be swift to either recover it's losses of it's investment and possible revenues it could have generated with DNF.

2. I think 3DR's opportuntiy to develop this game has elapsed and if they take a decade to develop it with a full complement of designers then I think they won't do any better with a skeleton crew so give T2 the code so they can finish it's development in a reasonable time frame and provide it to the people that has patiently waited for it.

3. I simply have no faith in 3DR and their philosophy of "when it's done" this ploy might've worked for a little while but it indicates a lack of respect to T2 and the fans that waited for it. It wouldn't surprise me that there was more to the story that is published. All that in consideration I have no faith in an organization to claim when "when it's done" for a decade, leak a few video snippets and pictures and then suddenly say "Goodbye" and cancel the project entirely. That doesn't show a respect to the people who buy their products that funds and supports their organization.

4. I think the best move for 3DR is to come clean. There is far more involved in this decade then what is being told. I think the first charge is to restablish its reputation with it's patrons because that is the same people will provide the monies to rebuid them.

wh4tever · 06-06-2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

I've enjoyed playing a few titles 3DR and I would like to claim a certain amount of loyalty to them but this situation seems to be the exception to that.

1. I have to remember that this is a business that deals with contracts and expectations of the parties that agree to those contracts. Waiting a decade to deliver DNF seems excessive to the type of product being developed. It's totally understandable that T2 would be swift to either recover it's losses of it's investment and possible revenues it could have generated with DNF.

2. I think 3DR's opportuntiy to develop this game has elapsed and if they take a decade to develop it with a full complement of designers then I think they won't do any better with a skeleton crew so give T2 the code so they can finish it's development in a reasonable time frame and provide it to the people that has patiently waited for it.

3. I simply have no faith in 3DR and their philosophy of "when it's done" this ploy might've worked for a little while but it indicates a lack of respect to T2 and the fans that waited for it. It wouldn't surprise me that there was more to the story that is published. All that in consideration I have no faith in an organization to claim when "when it's done" for a decade, leak a few video snippets and pictures and then suddenly say "Goodbye" and cancel the project entirely. That doesn't show a respect to the people who buy their products that funds and supports their organization.

4. I think the best move for 3DR is to come clean. There is far more involved in this decade then what is being told. I think the first charge is to restablish its reputation with it's patrons because that is the same people will provide the monies to rebuid them.

I couldn't agree more, particularly with point 3.
People get irate when others criticize 3DR but they seem to forget we were all 3DR fan at some point otherwise we wouldn't be here.I found the "when it's done" line offensive seeing that it was my intension to purchase the game and help keep them in a job. Probably not the best way to treat existing and future potential customers,smacks of arrogance.
They could have started by apologizing for the delay rather than denying there was one, and simply requesting that thier fans remain patient.
It's called treating people with respect.

I'm not too interested in the court case but I am nore incliened to support Take Two than 3DR. We may have waited ten+ years but at least we are not out of pocket too.

dinwitty · 06-06-2009, 01:26 PM

It seems DNF was being self funded, but perhaps somewhere that funding came to an end and 3DR went asking T2 for money, T2 reacted back so it seems, another company did a similar lawsuit case if you read the news. Everything I am hearing is the game is not dead, and it seems its fairly close to done, just not quite and needs a last development run. It sounds like 3DR is working on funding.
Since this recent brewhaha, lawsuits and so on, I've decided to backseat on all the issues, and not be a fingerpointer. 3DR has the game we all want to see (or not by now)
with T2 still on the distribution, and I am still expecting - something - to happen when its released. Lots of other games out there to jangle on. But I think 3DR is being very specific how they want this game to play out.

overNout

WoodenSword · 06-06-2009, 04:29 PM

Doesn't anyone know when are we expecting something new on the case?

Was the notice of removal approved? When will we know more about it? When will the restraining order will be decided? In the federal court hearing?

mbutterman · 06-06-2009, 10:39 PM

While I try to be a an optimist, I am a realist. I could buy into the idea that DNF took 10 + years to develop but I think my line in the sand in how 3DR handled the patrons that waited for that 10 + years. As a very loose comparison, the Golden Gate Bridge construction began on 01/1933 and finished 04/1937. The time spent developing this has been excessive and there never been a full accounting of it. "When It's Done" doesn't buy a lot a patience from the patrons who wait for a product to arrive. These same patrons are loyal and spend a great deal of money to purchase 3DR games that maintain 3DR's bottom line. If the patrons didn't exist, 3DR wouldn't either.

It would be a feather in their cap to finish it as promised and it could be the most perfectly developed game but the bad PR surrounding 3DR right now would doom their efforts before the first copy reaches the shelves. DNF needs a new development team that is focused and without all the bad press to contend with. DNF needs a fresh perspective and direction. If 3DR never provided me or it's customer base anything else, I think we are owed a promise that was made 10 years ago.

I would hope 3DR will bounce back and I wish them the greatest of success in this but again I am a realist before I am a optimist.

dan2091 · 06-06-2009, 10:58 PM

If they were asking for 5 millions, I don't thing they were almost done... But, despite all this, I do believe 3D Realms was capable of releasing the game.. it's just that they lacked the money at the end.

SplatterHappy · 06-07-2009, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan2091

If they were asking for 5 millions, I don't thing they were almost done... But, despite all this, I do believe 3D Realms was capable of releasing the game.. it's just that they lacked the money at the end.

I figure they were roughly a year or so away from completion, including testing, debugging, etc. I'll be taking some examples from:

http://www.jobmonkey.com/videogamejo...pensation.html

For a ballpark, using the 2006 figures for overall average game programmers salaries, $80,886 x team of 30 = $2,426,580.

Now factor in 2+ years of recessionary inflation (i.e. higher cost of living, etc), that figure would inflate some. Then factor in the power and water bills for the 3DR offices, any cleaning crew costs, etc. If you also factor in reports that George was known to take good care of his people (i.e. pay them well), I don't see $5 million as an excessive figure to cover roughly 1 year's operating costs. I'm also reasonably sure that George probably added a little padding to the figure a bit to give them some leeway.. wouldn't do to finish the game and then not be able to pay the employees while the disks were being pressed or something.

Just a rough guess/estimation on my part (and of course, it's just my opinion)... but there it is.

mbutterman · 06-09-2009, 04:08 PM

I like the last post's approach but to take it a step further, here is my questions.

1. I can buy this was a self funded project untill 2008 when T2 renegotiated it's with 3DR for DNF. Those efforts failed but this begs the questions. What of the last decade beyond the last year. I can only assume T2 would had been gracious enough to assist 3DR if they hadn't taken 10 years with a full complement of designers to complete it. T2 was wise not provide any more funding until they could establish that 3DR was serious about setting a reasonable deadline.

2. There had to be some indication well before 2008 that 3DR that experiencing issues with their company and funding DNF and nothing was said. How could that be T2's fault for 3DR's financial woes and possible mismanagement. Why would T2 take such a risky manuver to front anymore money to 3DR under these conditions.

3. I can understand people's loyalty but in order to fully understand the issue, you can't cloud your vision with loyalty. A person much wiser than me said once "you can BS me and I can BS you but lets not BS each other"

4. If 3DR is really in tune with it's patrons then they will read every one of these comments and realize that it was their desicions that brought them to this point in time. While there is alot of flaming about T2 and I can understand that. In reality there a is a sizable measure of responsibility that rests on the shoulders of 3DR and I suspect if they were doing the right thing in the beginning then the court case would've never become a neccessity.

SplatterHappy · 06-11-2009, 12:02 AM

Another wise man once said "There are two sides to every story, and somewhere in between them lies the truth."

I suspect we'll be able to glean most of the details from various sources once the trial is finally over (or settled out of court). Until then, these forums will continue to be filled with 90% rumors, conjecture, and speculation as is the way of things.

For my part, I've sided against Take 2 based on 3DR's press release stating that Take 2 fundamentally altered the deal. Of course, this means I'm taking George and Scott at their word and am probably a fool for doing so (wouldn't be the first time), going by statements they've made in the past that were less than true. But I'm an honest person and have always despised people who intentionally back out on their word.

Tualmasok · 06-11-2009, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3rdmillhouse

Give me a break, I'm not american, so I have no idea how your judicial system works.

LOL dude, that's the funny thing about it! Only a small minority of the worlds population is American! Most people in the world have no idea how it works, even Americans!

And do we really care?

Noooooo!

DNF is dead! Lynch the GB!

mbutterman · 06-11-2009, 02:21 AM

I'm not into lynching anybody and I'm in the just as in the dark as the next person but it is through reasonable questioning that the truth is discovered. Me personally, I gave up on DNF years ago, it has become a humorous antidote that I share whenever someone needs a bedtime fairy tale to sleep to. I was however curious how 3DR is going to do in response. I figured that after 10 years of BSing that might emerge a little wiser for the wear. I would like to see them move forward again but that is really how they really deal with their patrons first. Without the support of them, they will not survive. Patrons don't take well to be disrespected and there are many organizations that are will to cater to them if one falls out of favor. The game industry is extremely competitive and so it takes more than just a great game to establish a patron's favor. Here is my suggestions to 3DR.

1. Understand that your chance to make the wrong right has elasped. It is a day late and dollar short. Cut you losses with DNF and provide the code (only the code) to T2. Now of course you'll need some money for time spent but realize that you'll never recover 10 years of development because games take about half that time in reality to develop. You will have losses but this is the natural consequences of your actions. Understand that it's through mismanagement of your own resources that has caused the delay that has been suffered. I suspect there won't be any company that will compensate you for that.

2. Your major obstacle is public relations. I have only read only 1 percent of 1 percent of respondants and 99 percent of them have trust issues with 3DR. This will only effect your abilty to market DNF but any other game that is associated with 3DR. Patrons tend to remember the worse of someone first. Without the patron's trust, development is futile because it still comes from 3DR and they can't be trusted to do the right thing towards teir patrons. It's the patrons that will buy the games and therefore funds your organization.
3. Being tight-lipped is a sure sign to a patron that you are concealing something so communication to your patrons is essential. Talking about the court case is understandable because it is in the hand of lawyers and courts so it should be kept there. One of the first unforgivable sins in business is forgetting who really signs your paycheck so PR is important. Saying "When It's Done" is really ignoring the patrons need to know and more important it infers that their needs are not really important to you. BIG NO NO.

So there you are 3DR. Come Clean and start treating your patrons like the gold they are because they are. FYI George, I was never wanted to lynch you but a little education in how to treat and address your public is my gift. Send me a private message if you are so inclined to hear my thoughts. Always here to assist.

Alhexx · 06-11-2009, 04:47 AM

There's a nice quote from House M.D. that came to my mind:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregory House

Almost dying changes nothing. Dying changes everything.

I hope that this applys to 3DRealms in this case...

mbutterman · 07-16-2009, 02:50 AM

I was just seeing how the voting was going? A question come to mind. If 3DR wins, how will they finish it when they have let the majority of their developers go? If they can't finish in 10+ years with a full complement of developers, a skeleton crew won't do any better and more realistically, do much worse. What better way to give it a life again is a lawsuit. Think T2 and 3DR are still playing rounds of golf on the weekends. Hmm, interesting conspiracy therory.

prophecy holder · 07-17-2009, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamerfreak

All this over a game that took 12 years to develop and used over $20 million over. I tell you, people are taking entertainment to the grave. Just to release a game you have to go to court. That's pathetic. Even the reason is. Sure it's a high amount of money that Take-Two "supplied" 3D Realms with, but with all due respect, I think it's nothing to fight over. 3D Realms, hope you win. What's left of you guys. It sucks ya'll had to disband.

$20 Million dollars is a lot to fight over, considering people have killed others for lesser amounts.

Antosa · 07-17-2009, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WoodenSword

Ok, the question is simple! According to you what do you think that it will happen with the complaint of Take Two against 3d realms?

But when the judge will decide? There is a date?

LeonZyCoene · 07-18-2009, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotty

#8: Who gives a rats' ass?

Says the guy posting on the official DNF forum.

Why are you people still here?

imachavel · 07-18-2009, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wh4tever

I couldn't agree more, particularly with point 3.
People get irate when others criticize 3DR but they seem to forget we were all 3DR fan at some point otherwise we wouldn't be here.I found the "when it's done" line offensive seeing that it was my intension to purchase the game and help keep them in a job. Probably not the best way to treat existing and future potential customers,smacks of arrogance.
They could have started by apologizing for the delay rather than denying there was one, and simply requesting that thier fans remain patient.
It's called treating people with respect.

I'm not too interested in the court case but I am nore incliened to support Take Two than 3DR. We may have waited ten+ years but at least we are not out of pocket too.

I agree with you on that it's bullshit such a delay isn't worth it even if it the best game on the planet and as a fan I'm supporting their company by buying their game instead of buying nothing, however if take two wins this case 3d realms owes them a shitload of money they don't have plus the bankruptcy they're already facing, if 3d realms wins they can make their stupid game and pay take two all the money they want

as ridiculous as it is to hold out on a game for 13 years still I feel it's so messed up to sue someone at a point when they know they have no options, especially from a company that just almost faced a hostile takeover, wow how does THAT make sense? Although I can't think of any alternative solution I'd imagine that if this game gets finished and since it is 60% done that everyone wins and everyone is happy if 3d realms wins this case

this is somewhat unnecessary, I'm sure there's a better to handle this, the fact is 3d realms could have this game out in a year or less if they weren't f'ing around

in the future I think publishers should ALWAYS give a company a due date, and it'd be nice if when a publisher doesn't pay for something if a contract would simply state that a company needs to find another publisher if the game isn't done by the due date

so anyway I don't know what take two actually paid for but it looks like they'll get their money back if george broussard has to panhandle every penny of it as a bum on the streets for them
LOL

barrel full of monkeys if you ask me, not so much fun. but so much too many monkeys are in charge of companies.
we don't need anymore hitlers
we don't need any more yacking chimps swinging from the ceiling instead of making products

I don't know any way to put it better

---------- Post added at 05:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:14 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbutterman

I'm not into lynching anybody and I'm in the just as in the dark as the next person but it is through reasonable questioning that the truth is discovered. Me personally, I gave up on DNF years ago, it has become a humorous antidote that I share whenever someone needs a bedtime fairy tale to sleep to. I was however curious how 3DR is going to do in response. I figured that after 10 years of BSing that might emerge a little wiser for the wear. I would like to see them move forward again but that is really how they really deal with their patrons first. Without the support of them, they will not survive. Patrons don't take well to be disrespected and there are many organizations that are will to cater to them if one falls out of favor. The game industry is extremely competitive and so it takes more than just a great game to establish a patron's favor. Here is my suggestions to 3DR.

1. Understand that your chance to make the wrong right has elasped. It is a day late and dollar short. Cut you losses with DNF and provide the code (only the code) to T2. Now of course you'll need some money for time spent but realize that you'll never recover 10 years of development because games take about half that time in reality to develop. You will have losses but this is the natural consequences of your actions. Understand that it's through mismanagement of your own resources that has caused the delay that has been suffered. I suspect there won't be any company that will compensate you for that.

2. Your major obstacle is public relations. I have only read only 1 percent of 1 percent of respondants and 99 percent of them have trust issues with 3DR. This will only effect your abilty to market DNF but any other game that is associated with 3DR. Patrons tend to remember the worse of someone first. Without the patron's trust, development is futile because it still comes from 3DR and they can't be trusted to do the right thing towards teir patrons. It's the patrons that will buy the games and therefore funds your organization.
3. Being tight-lipped is a sure sign to a patron that you are concealing something so communication to your patrons is essential. Talking about the court case is understandable because it is in the hand of lawyers and courts so it should be kept there. One of the first unforgivable sins in business is forgetting who really signs your paycheck so PR is important. Saying "When It's Done" is really ignoring the patrons need to know and more important it infers that their needs are not really important to you. BIG NO NO.

So there you are 3DR. Come Clean and start treating your patrons like the gold they are because they are. FYI George, I was never wanted to lynch you but a little education in how to treat and address your public is my gift. Send me a private message if you are so inclined to hear my thoughts. Always here to assist.

maybe you didn't hear this part though, they WERE going to sell dnf to take two, but there was no upfront money and no guarantee that for MOST OF THE WORK that 3d realms put into game that they'd be sufficiently compensated

I understand that's a good idea to sell it already and since the game is mapped out and pretty much completely plotted all take two would have to do is stretch themselves out and probably nail it down and just finish it for them

however late this game is though 3d realms did put a lot of work into it and a job finished late is still a job finished. Although 3d realms didn't finish why would they want to sell the source code for nothing whatsoever?

if I was 3d realms I wouldn't sell this game for anything less than $30 million

it could make way more than that

if I was to sell them this source code I'd sell it to them under the deal that they finish the game to george broussard's specifications and they get at least $30 million upfront

I guess they'd have to take the loss of knowing they could have made much more off of it but whatever

I guess next time take two is faced with a hostile takeover I'll have to pursue an agreement with the company buying them out
hey what's fair is fair

mbutterman · 09-01-2009, 06:55 AM

30 million? Hmm, I really don't see it as a money issue as much as a breach of contract.

Even if 3DR was to prevail, how could they possibly finish it after the staff cuts. I not totally opposed to 3DR keeping the game but how many setbacks would it suffer as a result. I need something to validate my faith in 3DR and "when it's done" doesn't promote any faith at all. T2 hasn't violated my sensibilities so far. It comes down to credibility. If 3DR can make this work then by all means prove me wrong but until that time, I have no faith in them to do what is best for the customer. Without customers, 3DR would not exist.

View Poll Results: What do you think it will happen with the lawsuit?
The case is dismissed at the hearing in favour of 3d realms/Apogee	26	17.45%
They decide to negotiate and settle the case out of court	54	36.24%
The judge agrees to a full court case ,the restraining order is dismissed,3d realms loses the case	9	6.04%
The judge agrees to a full court case ,the restraining order is dismissed,3d realms wins the case	25	16.78%
The judge agrees to a full court case ,the restraining order is applied,3d realms wins the case	9	6.04%
The judge agrees to a full court case ,the restraining order is applied,3d realms loses the case	26	17.45%
Voters: 149. You may not vote on this poll

06-01-2009, 05:25 PM	#41
Monkey Butler	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? That wasn't directed at you mate. More at the constant "it's a hoax" "T2 didn't pay 3DR" "3DR are for sure going to win" "the game's only 60% finished" shit that gets posted around here. And just for the record, I'm not American either.

06-01-2009, 10:29 PM	#44
gamerfreak	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? All this over a game that took 12 years to develop and used over $20 million over. I tell you, people are taking entertainment to the grave. Just to release a game you have to go to court. That's pathetic. Even the reason is. Sure it's a high amount of money that Take-Two "supplied" 3D Realms with, but with all due respect, I think it's nothing to fight over. 3D Realms, hope you win. What's left of you guys. It sucks ya'll had to disband. __________________ Give it all you got.

06-02-2009, 07:55 AM	#45
edithegodfather	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? On the contrary, that's a lot o' dough to fight over; they're not like multi bilion $ companies. __________________ "I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse."

06-02-2009, 03:41 PM	#46
JobivanHiob	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? so 2 days left until court day! I hope it turns out good and we hear about it on this very day __________________ Stay up to date with http://dukewatch.blogspot.com for the UNEXPECTED and PREPARE YOURSELF for SHOCK and AWESOME on Penny Arcade EXPO from September 3-5! Onebullit: "If DNF comes out in 2010 i will buy 2 copies and send you one." pjVgt regading DNF at PAX:"I would seriously shit my pants and pre-order three copies - one will be sent to Jobi"

06-03-2009, 04:32 PM	#47
WoodenSword	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? one day before the hearing!!! So up until now: 49% people believe =>The judge agrees to a full court case 37% people believe => They decide to negotiate and settle the case out of court 14% people believe => the case will be dismissed 76% people believe => The restraining order will not be applied 24% people believe => The restraining order will be applied In a couple of hours we will find out how valid our little poll came out... __________________ ------------------------------ When the chess game is over, the pawn and the king go back to the same box

06-03-2009, 04:38 PM	#48
JobivanHiob	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? if we hear from it. Maybe 3DR and Take 2 remain quiet. __________________ Stay up to date with http://dukewatch.blogspot.com for the UNEXPECTED and PREPARE YOURSELF for SHOCK and AWESOME on Penny Arcade EXPO from September 3-5! Onebullit: "If DNF comes out in 2010 i will buy 2 copies and send you one." pjVgt regading DNF at PAX:"I would seriously shit my pants and pre-order three copies - one will be sent to Jobi"

06-04-2009, 02:16 PM	#53
SplatterHappy	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? I now believe absolutely nothing will happen in court (or did, since it should have started some 3 hrs ago): Looking up the case (index no. 601457-2009) again, I see that a "Notice of Removal" was filed on 5-29-2009. I'm assuming this would have been Take Two filing this since they are the plaintiff. I'm no lawyer, but from what I've been able to glean this would indicate that Take Two has dropped the case (or at least the "restraining order" request). I may be wrong, so if anyone of a more legal or paralegal background out there could verify this, I'd be grateful. Here's the link to the above: http://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/iscr...No=601457-2009 (you'll have to input the letters/numbers in the box on the right of the page to get to it.. it's a human being check. ) __________________ "They say everyone gets their 15 minutes of fame. What they don't tell you is that 12 of those minutes are a rectal exam." - John Oliver - "The Daily Show" Last edited by SplatterHappy; 06-04-2009 at 02:38 PM. Reason: added link

06-04-2009, 02:55 PM	#54
Firstperson	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? So NOW WHAT? If the case has been "removed", they BETTER have an explaination soon. __________________ "Whatdaya waitin for? Christmas?" -Duke Nukem

06-04-2009, 03:02 PM	#55
SplatterHappy	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? On further digging, this may just be a technicality where it's removed from federal court and entered into the state court system (or vice-versa in some cases). I think I've misread the meaning of this, but like I said.. I'm not a lawyer. __________________ "They say everyone gets their 15 minutes of fame. What they don't tell you is that 12 of those minutes are a rectal exam." - John Oliver - "The Daily Show"

06-04-2009, 05:17 PM	#56
Floodge	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? CASE STATUS: ACTIVE they probably just filed a notice for 3DR to remove something? Also LAST UPDATE: 06-04-2009 3:00PM When the hearing was to start....

06-04-2009, 05:41 PM	#58
SplatterHappy	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? 11:00 am Eastern time. 8 and 1/2 hrs ago. I'm sure it's long over now since it was only in regards to the restraining order. Wonder how it turned out? @lordlonelobo: Thanks for the clarification on that! Edit: Maybe since the filing of the "notice of removal", the session for today wasn't held and a new date will be set for a hearing in federal court? Gah.. the legal system.. makes my head want to explode. __________________ "They say everyone gets their 15 minutes of fame. What they don't tell you is that 12 of those minutes are a rectal exam." - John Oliver - "The Daily Show" Last edited by SplatterHappy; 06-04-2009 at 05:47 PM.

06-05-2009, 05:47 AM	#60
WoodenSword	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? Any more news on that? No game journalist is on this? __________________ ------------------------------ When the chess game is over, the pawn and the king go back to the same box

06-05-2009, 08:16 PM	#63
mbutterman	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? I've enjoyed playing a few titles 3DR and I would like to claim a certain amount of loyalty to them but this situation seems to be the exception to that. 1. I have to remember that this is a business that deals with contracts and expectations of the parties that agree to those contracts. Waiting a decade to deliver DNF seems excessive to the type of product being developed. It's totally understandable that T2 would be swift to either recover it's losses of it's investment and possible revenues it could have generated with DNF. 2. I think 3DR's opportuntiy to develop this game has elapsed and if they take a decade to develop it with a full complement of designers then I think they won't do any better with a skeleton crew so give T2 the code so they can finish it's development in a reasonable time frame and provide it to the people that has patiently waited for it. 3. I simply have no faith in 3DR and their philosophy of "when it's done" this ploy might've worked for a little while but it indicates a lack of respect to T2 and the fans that waited for it. It wouldn't surprise me that there was more to the story that is published. All that in consideration I have no faith in an organization to claim when "when it's done" for a decade, leak a few video snippets and pictures and then suddenly say "Goodbye" and cancel the project entirely. That doesn't show a respect to the people who buy their products that funds and supports their organization. 4. I think the best move for 3DR is to come clean. There is far more involved in this decade then what is being told. I think the first charge is to restablish its reputation with it's patrons because that is the same people will provide the monies to rebuid them.

06-06-2009, 01:26 PM	#65
dinwitty	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? It seems DNF was being self funded, but perhaps somewhere that funding came to an end and 3DR went asking T2 for money, T2 reacted back so it seems, another company did a similar lawsuit case if you read the news. Everything I am hearing is the game is not dead, and it seems its fairly close to done, just not quite and needs a last development run. It sounds like 3DR is working on funding. Since this recent brewhaha, lawsuits and so on, I've decided to backseat on all the issues, and not be a fingerpointer. 3DR has the game we all want to see (or not by now) with T2 still on the distribution, and I am still expecting - something - to happen when its released. Lots of other games out there to jangle on. But I think 3DR is being very specific how they want this game to play out. overNout

06-06-2009, 04:29 PM	#66
WoodenSword	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? Doesn't anyone know when are we expecting something new on the case? Was the notice of removal approved? When will we know more about it? When will the restraining order will be decided? In the federal court hearing? __________________ ------------------------------ When the chess game is over, the pawn and the king go back to the same box

06-06-2009, 10:39 PM	#67
mbutterman	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? While I try to be a an optimist, I am a realist. I could buy into the idea that DNF took 10 + years to develop but I think my line in the sand in how 3DR handled the patrons that waited for that 10 + years. As a very loose comparison, the Golden Gate Bridge construction began on 01/1933 and finished 04/1937. The time spent developing this has been excessive and there never been a full accounting of it. "When It's Done" doesn't buy a lot a patience from the patrons who wait for a product to arrive. These same patrons are loyal and spend a great deal of money to purchase 3DR games that maintain 3DR's bottom line. If the patrons didn't exist, 3DR wouldn't either. It would be a feather in their cap to finish it as promised and it could be the most perfectly developed game but the bad PR surrounding 3DR right now would doom their efforts before the first copy reaches the shelves. DNF needs a new development team that is focused and without all the bad press to contend with. DNF needs a fresh perspective and direction. If 3DR never provided me or it's customer base anything else, I think we are owed a promise that was made 10 years ago. I would hope 3DR will bounce back and I wish them the greatest of success in this but again I am a realist before I am a optimist.

06-06-2009, 10:58 PM	#68
dan2091	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? If they were asking for 5 millions, I don't thing they were almost done... But, despite all this, I do believe 3D Realms was capable of releasing the game.. it's just that they lacked the money at the end. __________________ J'etais parti ce matin au bois. Pour toi, mon amour, por toi... -Barbara

06-09-2009, 04:08 PM	#70
mbutterman	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? I like the last post's approach but to take it a step further, here is my questions. 1. I can buy this was a self funded project untill 2008 when T2 renegotiated it's with 3DR for DNF. Those efforts failed but this begs the questions. What of the last decade beyond the last year. I can only assume T2 would had been gracious enough to assist 3DR if they hadn't taken 10 years with a full complement of designers to complete it. T2 was wise not provide any more funding until they could establish that 3DR was serious about setting a reasonable deadline. 2. There had to be some indication well before 2008 that 3DR that experiencing issues with their company and funding DNF and nothing was said. How could that be T2's fault for 3DR's financial woes and possible mismanagement. Why would T2 take such a risky manuver to front anymore money to 3DR under these conditions. 3. I can understand people's loyalty but in order to fully understand the issue, you can't cloud your vision with loyalty. A person much wiser than me said once "you can BS me and I can BS you but lets not BS each other" 4. If 3DR is really in tune with it's patrons then they will read every one of these comments and realize that it was their desicions that brought them to this point in time. While there is alot of flaming about T2 and I can understand that. In reality there a is a sizable measure of responsibility that rests on the shoulders of 3DR and I suspect if they were doing the right thing in the beginning then the court case would've never become a neccessity.

06-11-2009, 12:02 AM	#71
SplatterHappy	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? Another wise man once said "There are two sides to every story, and somewhere in between them lies the truth." I suspect we'll be able to glean most of the details from various sources once the trial is finally over (or settled out of court). Until then, these forums will continue to be filled with 90% rumors, conjecture, and speculation as is the way of things. For my part, I've sided against Take 2 based on 3DR's press release stating that Take 2 fundamentally altered the deal. Of course, this means I'm taking George and Scott at their word and am probably a fool for doing so (wouldn't be the first time), going by statements they've made in the past that were less than true. But I'm an honest person and have always despised people who intentionally back out on their word. __________________ "They say everyone gets their 15 minutes of fame. What they don't tell you is that 12 of those minutes are a rectal exam." - John Oliver - "The Daily Show" Last edited by SplatterHappy; 06-11-2009 at 12:08 AM.

06-11-2009, 02:21 AM	#73
mbutterman	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? I'm not into lynching anybody and I'm in the just as in the dark as the next person but it is through reasonable questioning that the truth is discovered. Me personally, I gave up on DNF years ago, it has become a humorous antidote that I share whenever someone needs a bedtime fairy tale to sleep to. I was however curious how 3DR is going to do in response. I figured that after 10 years of BSing that might emerge a little wiser for the wear. I would like to see them move forward again but that is really how they really deal with their patrons first. Without the support of them, they will not survive. Patrons don't take well to be disrespected and there are many organizations that are will to cater to them if one falls out of favor. The game industry is extremely competitive and so it takes more than just a great game to establish a patron's favor. Here is my suggestions to 3DR. 1. Understand that your chance to make the wrong right has elasped. It is a day late and dollar short. Cut you losses with DNF and provide the code (only the code) to T2. Now of course you'll need some money for time spent but realize that you'll never recover 10 years of development because games take about half that time in reality to develop. You will have losses but this is the natural consequences of your actions. Understand that it's through mismanagement of your own resources that has caused the delay that has been suffered. I suspect there won't be any company that will compensate you for that. 2. Your major obstacle is public relations. I have only read only 1 percent of 1 percent of respondants and 99 percent of them have trust issues with 3DR. This will only effect your abilty to market DNF but any other game that is associated with 3DR. Patrons tend to remember the worse of someone first. Without the patron's trust, development is futile because it still comes from 3DR and they can't be trusted to do the right thing towards teir patrons. It's the patrons that will buy the games and therefore funds your organization. 3. Being tight-lipped is a sure sign to a patron that you are concealing something so communication to your patrons is essential. Talking about the court case is understandable because it is in the hand of lawyers and courts so it should be kept there. One of the first unforgivable sins in business is forgetting who really signs your paycheck so PR is important. Saying "When It's Done" is really ignoring the patrons need to know and more important it infers that their needs are not really important to you. BIG NO NO. So there you are 3DR. Come Clean and start treating your patrons like the gold they are because they are. FYI George, I was never wanted to lynch you but a little education in how to treat and address your public is my gift. Send me a private message if you are so inclined to hear my thoughts. Always here to assist.

07-16-2009, 02:50 AM	#75
mbutterman	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? I was just seeing how the voting was going? A question come to mind. If 3DR wins, how will they finish it when they have let the majority of their developers go? If they can't finish in 10+ years with a full complement of developers, a skeleton crew won't do any better and more realistically, do much worse. What better way to give it a life again is a lawsuit. Think T2 and 3DR are still playing rounds of golf on the weekends. Hmm, interesting conspiracy therory.

09-01-2009, 06:55 AM	#80
mbutterman	Re: What you think it will happen in court ? 30 million? Hmm, I really don't see it as a money issue as much as a breach of contract. Even if 3DR was to prevail, how could they possibly finish it after the staff cuts. I not totally opposed to 3DR keeping the game but how many setbacks would it suffer as a result. I need something to validate my faith in 3DR and "when it's done" doesn't promote any faith at all. T2 hasn't violated my sensibilities so far. It comes down to credibility. If 3DR can make this work then by all means prove me wrong but until that time, I have no faith in them to do what is best for the customer. Without customers, 3DR would not exist.