The Thief 4 Thread

[Klaus Kinski]

Since there are already first rumors of a new Thief game...
What would you like to see/play in Thief 4 if the rumors turn out to b true?

[Echo Black]

Altair!!111

[Wamplet]

I would like Altair as a thief as well, or at least the time period, but I'm not sure how this would do well to tie into further money-producing sequels, which is ultimately what non-mmorpg devs plan to do.

Of course, they could start off after Thief 3 where the girl that robbed Garrett in the end becomes a thief/keeper like him.

They could do it in the future/present as pointed out in the old interview.

Lastly, they could pull a DE/DE2 or Assassin's Creed and work the story in where time travel is involved.


edit: someone also suggested doing a prequel to Thief 1, which i wouldn't oppose as well.

Of course, I think the best route is to establish a new storyline, with or without Garrett, because I want a nice 3-game series out of this again.

[Thief]

Blasphemy, Wamplet! Take away Garrett, take away 'Thief' from the title as well. Altair is as generic as they come. An athletic, superior swordsman. A cocky, my word is the only word that counts type attitude...everything Garrett isn't, aside from a little cockiness, perhaps. There's no stealth in AC, zero! You can run up behind guards and they won't even shuffle. Hitman has a lot more stealth elements than AC. AC forces you to fight.

Garrett is a greed-set, shadow-stealing weakling with a quick tongue, who certainly couldn't come out of an 8 on 1 swordsfight alive, which is child's play for Altair in Assassin's Creed.

Bring Garrett out of retirement. A prequel to Dark Project suggests that Stephen Russell may not voice Garrett, which would peeve off the legions and legions of fans devoted to LGS's Thief games, myself included.

I say find a way to bring back the Trickster or some other form of it.

That said, I am enjoying my playthrough of Assassin's Creed, though it's sort of like Hitman without the burners, explosives and poison. Replace stealth and planning with viewpoints and parkour and you've got AC laid out nicely.

[Wamplet]

Thief, I know Garrett made the franchise and i think it would be great if they can salvage him.

Ok, a few more thoughts:

Old west

London, around the time of Jack the Ripper. I thought Thief 3 kind of reminded me of that with the whole Hag bit. very spooky. Thieving around the town with a serial killer on the loose.

I'm still reading the TTLG forum thread. only on page 7 right now.

EDIT:

Maybe someone can make my avatar with a Garrett thieving hood in the meantime? \o

Of course, you could go overboard and add in a night time christmas tree-lit scene to match the theme. I can only hope.

[Damien_Azreal]

Garrett returning would be awesome. I would love a new Thief game.

[Daedolon]

What, there's going to be a fourth Thief? Even if this is just speculation, it's really awesome news.

I personally just wish we'd see Garrett again, I can't imagine a Thief game without him (namely, his voice).

[Hudson]

*shutters*

While I would love to think of a Thief 4, I fear i'm just heading for disappointment (the same goes for Deus Ex 3)

[Klaus Kinski]

Fasten your seatbelts and reload your coffeemachine, this is going to be long.
Here are my thoughts on a Thief sequel:

The Prequel
Prequels suck. Not that all of them are bad but they are usually the most useless continuations of a franchise you can find. Take for example the Star Wars prequels Episode 1 to 3. Sure, they were suchessful and many claim (me among them) they can be fun to watch. Not Episode 1 though. Nobody liked that.
They were not in itself bad movies (except EP 1) and they certainly explained quite a few things but...
Did we really need those explanations? Did they really enlighten us with really necessary knowledge we didn't have? No. All we learned from them were details about things we already knew. Nothing in the story was really new to us, all of it could be glanced from the original trilogy.
Usually we learn nothing new from prequels as we already know what happened right down to the end, which makes them even more disappointing. There was never any surprise that Anakin would become Darth Vader. We knew it all along! Same with the japanese version of the Ring trilogy. Watching the prequel might've been interesting but we always knew the little girl would learn to crawl out of a TV set sooner or later.
So what else other than details about what happened can we gain from prequels? Justification. Why people do what they do, why they became who they are. But that leads to the next question, which is, ironically, the same we asked at first: Do we need to know?
After all, Hannibal Lector isn't less scary because we don't know why he eats people and let's be honest, he didn't become more scary now that we do. We don't really need that justification and sometimes it makes everything even worse. Sure, Hitchcock could've explained why the birds attack. Spielberg could've explained why especially (t)his shark is so dangerous. The could have. And then they could've ruined their story.
Many times explaining too much is a bad thing. The horrible (no, not in the sense of "Oh no, it's scary!") Psycho 4 comes to mind. It justified Norman Bates, it demystified him. After this you pittied him but you weren't afraid anymore. Let's be honest, what you don't know scares you more than what we do know (unless it becomes something unknown, unpredictable itself again).
Prequels main selling point is to explain more and to justify. Why is Leatherface so insane and why chainsaws? Watch the prequel! Sure, that can be fun,if done right (in other words: not like EP 1) and done with the right franchise.
Now, is Tief the right franchise for prequel and can it be done right?
I don't think so. What is there to explain and Justify? What story can be told?
Garrett is a weak starting point. What could you tell? Why he became a Thief? Because he was a kid and hungry. Nobody can seriously want the adventures of young Garrett where your tasks are stealing bread and learning from the Keepers to stay the *#?%! out of sight.
Why he left the Keepers? Sure that would be a starting point but you could never reach the dramatic heights of the other Thief titles nor the huge impact their stories had on Garrett's world. Not without changing the Keepers attitude towards Garrett and himself a lot. He never knew he was such an important guy until Thief 1 and even then he was not fond of his importance, he didn't accept his saviour role yet. Even the Keepers weren't that protective or possessive about him until the Trickster came along. They would've been if he had done similar grand things before, as the later parts show.
So, who could be the center of a prequel's story if not Garrett? The Pagans? They were always there and up to Thief 1 their story is mainly one of failure as they didn't succeed that much, given the constant rise of the Hammerites and their influence. Sure, it would be great to play as a pagan version of Garrett, fighting the Hammerits maybe even with magic. But who would like the game to end with loosing the fight, being nearly annihilated and forced into opposition? Me neither.
So it must be the Hammerites! Yay, fight for the masterbuilder! Watch them rise from primitivity into the heights of the Angelwatch Tower! Ever wondered why Call of Duty lets you play as russian, british and american soldier but not as german? Because nobody wants to be the bad guy, the Nazi that runs through the woods and smites everyone opposing with a giant Hammer. You don't want that kind of Hero. Even the Antiheroes do good things. They always fight those who are even worse than they are. Garrett did. And make no mistake, a Thief game hould be in true Thief spirit. Hammerites are simply not fond of stealth and they don't accept breaking the law. They oppose what made Thief fun. So who is left as center for a prequel storyline?
The Keepers. Our trusty (haha) employers from the entire Thief series. Been there, done that, next. Seriously, this moment in my way too long post is the absolute payoff for all that talk about movies at the beginning. If you understood that, you know why the Keepers aren't interesting for a prequel.
If the new Thief game should be in exact the same spirit as the previous ones, if it isn't a spinoff (totally different case), if it is truly a continuation of the series, then it shouldn't be a prequel. It could never have the same impact storywise as the first games had, it would suffer from the same weaknesess that movie prequels suffer from. It would be at best a good but unnecessary game.
In don't want Thief 4 or whatever it is called, if they actually do it, to be unnecessary. I want it to be grand, exciting, intelligent and interesting. I want it to outshine the previous titles. I want more! In every meaning of the word.
So, a sequel then, right?

[Klaus Kinski]

Haha, it's too long for one post.....


The Sequel
The great thing about a sequel is that it opens up the storytelling possibilities. As long as you find something worth telling, you have as much freedom as your world it's set in allows you. Especially if you are not bound by a timeline of the future yet. Exactly that applies to a Thief sequel. It could be set in a dystopian, futuristic world, ruled by orwellian Hammerites, in a Planet of the Apes kind of scenario where the Pagans prevailed or just in the week after the Hag lost her power. Everything is possible.
Now, what is to decide first is when the sequel should be set. Present or future? Far or near Future? I for my part would like to see a near future setting. I don't want my new Thief to run around in spaceships and hack computers. I want wo play Thief and not System Shock (although I want to play that too but in its own franchise).
The near future is IMO the most interesting thing anyways. Let's say you move 20 years after Thief 3. You still have great, old and well known conflicts going on and at the same time potential for new ones.
The Hammerites are still there and the happenings of Thief 3 have not weakened them. No, they must have profited from it. It has proven them as incorruptable and powerful. Sure, their reputation must have taken some damage by the Keepers revealment for not noticing anything but they weren't alone with this. Nobody noticed the Keepers.
However, even although they are still pretty much where they were at the end of Thief 3, they could've stumbled over new problems. For example that nasty Mechanist thing. Sure, the world of Thief 3 is less technologically advanced than it was in Thief 2 but isn't that somehow logical? You have to remember that the superior technology of the Mechanists nearly destroyed the city. People must have lost trust in it. Their reversal to what's known, to what is thought of as secure, is not surprising even if it's less advanced.
The Hammerites would be happy about that. Their foothold in such a technology frightened society would be strong as they opposed this advance too. After all, the Mechanists were heretics and the Master Builder doesn't like heresy. But would the Mechanist's knowledge be gone? Wouldn't the people, after some time went by of course, crave for their blessings again? The Hammerites would probably not deliver that. They love the status quo and they are, like the Catholic Roman Church they are modeled after, not too fast with catching up with time, with how the people change. Hammerites want to change the world, not themselves. Karras proved that.
So somebody else would offfer that technology and this time it's maybe not a religious order. How about that for a headline: Religion threatened by capitalism? What an interesting opportunity for great conflicts.
And what's the Pagan's outlook on the future? Well, as shown in Thief 3, the Mechanist's downfall gave them quite some power back. It surely must have given them many new members. However, I think it's doubtful they could've kept their rather large influence and presence in the city. I think the Hammrites would've cleansed the streets from the Pagan "threat". Time to strike back, don't you think? Time for the Woodsie Lord to return.
So, with all that great opportunity for conflict and drama, there's one rather big problem left: the Keepers. They are no secret anymore, even their magic is gone. Everybody knows about them. And trust me, everybody will be very angry with them. Nobody likes to be manipulated and even less like to be spyed on. Who else can see a huge hammer coming own on them?
The established world order would take them out of the game, confiscate and even destroy their property and maybe even their members. Some Keepers might be able to join the prosecutors but others would run to the opposition. And the rest that survives? Might join Garrett.

The Garrett Problem
A huge concern for the fans, that includes me, is Garett. What will become of him? No fan likes protagonist changes in his favourite franchise, especially not when the franchise is so close connected to his protagonist. Tomb Raider would be less successful if it was Alfred the butler descending into trap-ridden tombs instead of Lara. Nobody would like General Graves take over for Duke. Heck, I would hate to play Max Payne 3 without even a second in control of Max. We love our Heroes.
But "Thief" is called "Thief" and not "Garrett". The timeline dictates the availability of Garrett and as I mentioned before, I prefer a near future. Roughly 20 years after the Hag. That would rule out Garrett as hero. I don't want to play a game where lockpicking gets only more difficult as the game progresses because the arthritis of Garrett gets worse. He won't get younger and to be honest, I hate this "You can't age because..." crap. This is not Alien! Or Aliens. Nor should it be.
Still, I want my Garrett. And I could get him. It's only 20 years, remember? He would be old but he doesn't have to be dead. Maybe Garrett understood the need for somebody atching over the city and its forces and factions now. Sure, he was a cynical loner who cared only about himself but on the other hand he knows better than anybody else that nobody should get too powerful. His mechanical eye will remind him. The key symbol on his hand too. It is hinted, to say the least, at the end of Thief 3, that he will reform an organisation like the Keepers or even reform them. Since the first game we know that he is a chosen one. Maybe even for that.
I think he would be ready know to take that responsibility. I doubt he would carry it until he dies but he doesn't have to. There would be people to follow up, maybe a talented pickpocketing girl. The timeline would allow that.
Having said all that, I think this possible outlook for the world of Thief 4 gives you all kinds of great options for a new hero as well. His or her background could lay virtually everywhere. A fallen Hammerite novice, grown as cynical as Garrett was/is. An Ex-Pagan, seduced by the city life and its values, especially those you can bring to your fence. A common Thief maybe, reluctant to invest time and sweat into anything else than the own pockets contents. Or how about something entirely different?
I believe that my suggestions could update this wonderful world as an set up for another awesome trilogy with exactly the same values and valueables as the original one and at the same time offering the chance to make ignificant changes for the better. It could povide the same if not more richness in story and gameplay without alienating the fans, that includes me, too much. It would have compromises but none I couldn't live with.

And now go and do something useful with your time. Can't believe you read this far, fool.

[Hudson]

Ah, how I've missed your long winded posts Klaus

[Damien_Azreal]

Nice posts Klaus.

And I agree with your points on Garrett... some games have actually had sequels without the main protagonist returning (FEAR - Project ORIGIN)... but Garrett had a personality to him.
A Thief game without him seems wrong in a way, but I could still see it standing on it's own. As long as fans are willing to give it a shot and not simply ignore it because of a lack of Garrett.

[Ravey]

It's almost like a Deus Ex game without playing as JC Denton... Oh wait!

I hope the game is good but the first two games were the best. On a related note if you guys haven't heard, the sequel to Thievery (Thief-based multiplayer game for Unreal Tournament) finally had an alpha release on the UT3 engine, worth checking out both!

Unreal Tournament:
http://www.thieveryut.com

Unreal Tournament 3:
http://www.night-blade.com
(Just goto the forum and download the latest build available)

Great for people who like coop games or more specifically coop games with crazy and good Thief-style gameplay.

[Malgon]

After Klaus' huge posts, I think I really missed out by not playing the Thief games.

[Klaus Kinski]

Yeah, and after seeing somebody starve to death, I think he missed out on the food.
Thief is the granddaddy of everything stealth. It created the freaking subgenre. It's the Wolf3D of stealth. Thief is a classic. It belongs in the Hall of Fame of gaming. If it isn't already there. If a Hall of Fame for gaming exist. But it sure would be in. Count on that. Enough short sentences.

[daddy]Go into your room and play videogames![/daddy]

[Wamplet]

Seconded on the longwinded comment. \o Welcomed as usual.

Originally Posted by Malgon

After Klaus' huge posts, I think I really missed out by not playing the Thief games.

You have. It's one of the only trilogies i can think of that each had a specific story and it progressed properly into each sequel with each one before allowing an enriched story-telling experience.

Thief 1 - Pagans (leaf-plant worshippers) and their intention of making the world a happy place feeding the bones of people to the leaf lord

Thief 2 - Hammerites, more specifically the Mechanists and their struggle to impose their order over the world turning everything into brick and metal

Thief 3 - The Keepers try to prevent a "dark age" in which the Hammerites and Pagans are currently vying to take control of still, which effectually means an imbalanced world. The Hammerites and Pagans are opposing forces and the Keepers try to preserve a balance in the city between the 2 factions. The Keepers face betrayal from the inside of their ranks.

The Thief world is amazing and for anyone who has not played it, it's not just about sneaking in and stealing loot. There are books and journals, memos, letters and if you take the time to read them, it provides a ton of material in the gameworld. It's just as much as an investigative game than it is about collecting loot, if you let it be.

It's going to be very hard to get this game right, and by right I mean not what ttlg people want or fans. I just mean something that will flow in the Thief universe. Will it pick up after 3 or will it be something altogether new in a later time? No clue, but i hope the story works.

[Klaus Kinski]

Well, the gameplay is not so hard to get right. Even if you'd stick to the very original formula, keep the same weapons and items, they'd be fine. For christ's sake, even the same AI would be still ok for todays standards. Although I expect of course more from a Thief game.

[Damien_Azreal]

I find that people have more problems in Theif games because of combat. They grasp and understand the game is about stealth, but still try at times to go the combat route.

And in Thief... that's the quickest way to fail. Combat is a last resort, and even then you should be trying to find another way out of the situation.

[Klaus Kinski]

True but nowadays stealth should be well established enough for people to understand it. Sure, many stealth games offered and sometimes even enforced the Rambo solution, especially Splinter Cell comes to mind. Hitman for example didn't punish killing sprees much either in the past.
However, things have changed. The last Hitman cut down your money for being messy and developers encourage it less than before (see SC:CT). People become more used to stealth, the concept isn't new in any way anymore.

[Wamplet]

Yeah, the problem with combat in thief is if you are going to attack, you either need quite a few poshuns or you need to just use arrows, if you have to attack in their sight.


The obvious way which may or may not be covered so well in the manuals is that if you plan to kill guards or attack them, at least do it when they are unaware and not in search mode.

I think the manuals should at least cover that or the AI beahviours to let you know.

In thief 3, there were various animations you could use to detect the AI behaviour mode, (weapon raised, dialogue) as well as in the older games.

Still, it would be helpful to let people know the best way going about attacking if you really have to under those circumstance.

Just say, "if you alert a guard or don't manage to get in a sneak attack, go hide for somewhere around the corner and wait fr the guard to go back into his rest mode then try again."

As far as the engine and AI goes, it's certainly fine where it's at for me. They could use the Thief 3 engine for all i care, although i think we can all rule out they will probably use whatever is being used with DE3.

What is Deux Ex 3 using anyway? Unreal?

[Damien_Azreal]

I think DE3 is using the UE3.... possibly. Not much info is known about it yet.

[Klaus Kinski]

As far as I know, there is no engine for DE3 named yet.

As far as attacking guards, it's a question of how the manual is written. Sure, you can explain that in some form of training mission but even casual gamers should notice the changes in difficulty when engaging combat with hostiles of varying awareness. If they don't, they have even better reasons to behave like a true taffer.

[Thief]

Wasn't it determined that DE3 was using the Tomb Raider Legend/Anniversary engine?

[Wamplet]

I never played Womb Raider.

How was the engine?

[Klaus Kinski]

That rings a bell...
Thief, you seem to be right.
Damn! And I was so convinced I'm perfect!

[Wamplet]

You are perfect, even when you are wrong.

Perfectly wrong \o

[John]

Originally Posted by Thief

Wasn't it determined that DE3 was using the Tomb Raider Legend/Anniversary engine?

You are correct, I do believe.

[Simon Charles]

I love Deus Ex 1, as well as Thief 1 and 2. The first time I played them, I felt something I had never felt before in a first person game : a sense of vulnerability coupled with a purpose and greed, a desperate need for survival in a hostile world that could hear your every footstep. Just thinking the guys working on T4 are fifteen minutes away from my appartement block is enough to bring envy -- and tears -- to my eyes. Eidos Montreal has all my blessings. I hope they make 'em great again.

[Hudson]

Yes, the Looking Glass years were some of the best for PC gamers

[Damien_Azreal]

Originally Posted by Thief

Wasn't it determined that DE3 was using the Tomb Raider Legend/Anniversary engine?

That's right. And that was one reason I was worried about the game....

[Malgon]

I did remember playing the Thief demo a long time back, and I remember it being a good challenge and also very different from it's contemporaries (HL). I did go through the demo quite a few times actually, I just never got around to playing the full game. I think I'll hunt a copy down this weekend.

Off topic: Thief is right about DE3 using the TR:L/A engine. I remember it being confirmed a while back now.

[MeatWagon]

^Definitely get all 3 of them, they are some of the best games ever made.

[Klaus Kinski]

Originally Posted by Damien_Azreal

That's right. And that was one reason I was worried about the game....

I would worry less because of the engine than rather because of the developers. Sure, competitive graphics are important (for selling the game and making enough money to justify part 5 in the publisher's eyes) but in the end the gameplay will decide if the game is a success. Thief was never that strong on the graphics side but it has always delivered awesome gameplay, even the questionable third part, which was strongest in that department.

But what would interest me is, where would you the game like to be set? How much time should've passed between T3 and T4? And what should happen?

[Wamplet]

I'm in agreement on the engine.

I think our primary concern should be on the story/universe setting and AI.

The last thing we want them doing is trying to make it look good and forgetting what made the games great.

Also, I must confess that ever since I bought a grandfather clock, everytime i wind it, the soft words of Karras echo in my head and i feel as if i am an honorary Mechanist.

[Damien_Azreal]

That's my worry.... the only info we have is a confirmation about the engine. I worry they are going to try and make it look pretty to appeal to a newer wave of console gamers.

*cough* Rainbow Six: Vegas *cough*

[Wamplet]

Well, unless they plan to make Thief Squad-based, we should be ok. \o

[Nihilanth]

Thief is the only stealth game I like. I have never played Thief 3 though (even though I've got it from a Thief Anthology...), didn't like the demo for it's ridiculously small levels. I have no wishes or hopes for Thief 4. We'll see.

[Klaus Kinski]

But you have to admit, coop support for Thief would rock big time.

On a related note, I have finally aquired Thief Gold for a price that is not totally ridiculous!
That will make my blackout much more bearable.

[Damien_Azreal]

Ohhh.... that would be awesome.

[Wamplet]

I am going to install Thief 1 and 2 and replay through them as well \o

Of course, i am looking more forward to playing Thief 2 than 1, but how can you not want to steal from old Bafford, anyways?