Take Two Sues 3D Realms

[Ward]

Originally Posted by Pikachu

Waste their time? It's not like they weren't paid for the work they did, it's just that they can't be paid anymore.

If they worked on a game that will not get released, that's waste of time if you are passionate about your work.

---------- Post added at 01:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Pikachu

...I was just trying to explain to the guy who was all "LOL N00BZ U WASTE TIME" that "Hey, at least they got paid"...

Originally Posted by Ward

About time they did this in my opinion, no mather how much i liked duke3d.

I hope whoever is responsible for all the continued delays will finally have to come up with some amswers. I feel bad for employees that wasted their time at 3DR, goodluck with finding a new job!

I did not call anyone a noob, don't put words into my mouth (this is a forum you know, the exact words get saved and can be quoted)

[Pikachu]

Originally Posted by Ward

I did not call anyone a noob, don't put words into my mouth (this is a forum you know, the exact words get saved and can be quoted)

cool story, bro

[DerricktheW]

Chan lingo died many years ago

[Mr. PHP]

This will get windy, but after a decade, I think I deserve the opportunity to rant a bit. Now that the legal filings are being submitted to the court, we have more info than we have EVER had in regards to DNF.

A brief rundown of what we know so far...

Both parties (3DR and Take2) agreed that 3DR was to develop a PC video game entitled "Duke Nukem Forever (DNF)." It appears, so far, that no date for completion was set for the development of DNF by 3DR OR TAKE2.

Both parties agreed that once the PC version of DNF was released for retail sales, Take2 would have 30 days to decide whether or not to exercise the rights (PURCHASE???) to port the PC version of the DNF PC game to a game console. This is only an OPTION.

Both parties agreed that Take2 would have NO RIGHTS to the DNF-source code until, within 30 days upon the commercial-retail release of the PC version of DNF-PC, Take2 decides to exercise their OPTION to develop the rights to develop a version OF THE SAME GAME (DNF-PC) for a console port. Only then would they be allowed access to the DNF source code. Take 2 would only be allowed to burn, advertise, and distribute the DNF-PC game at retail unless they exercised the console-version OPTION within 30 days of a commercial release.

In my opinion, the big bomb is in the details surrounding the Duke Nukem Begins title that Take2 was alleged to be developing. According to 3DR, this was to be released in a few months. According to 3DR, Take2 halted development on Duke Nukem Begins A MONTH before 3DR released the DNF team. It may be weak, but it would help to explain why 3DR stopped DNF a few weeks later. It also helps to explain the "unclean hands" part of the 3DR filing.

With that crap out of the way, I just started replaying Duke 3D with the Hi-Res pack and eduke32 and all the memories are flooding back. What a great game it was. After a decade, the Hi-Res folks deserve big kudos.
Duke was a fantastic PC game!

[Pikachu]

Originally Posted by DerricktheW

Chan lingo died many years ago

.....

Originally Posted by Pikachu

cool story, bro

[ManhattanProject]

This is my opinion,

Exactly. Take-Two needs to STFU IMO

I think this lawsuit was about Take-Two saying STFU IMO. Why? Here's why. DNF has been in production for 12 years. During that time 3DR kept asking for money by T2 to make the game. If you've been giving money to company that's been making a game for over 12 years then the company decides to stop production, you would be pissed.

[lordlonelobo]

Originally Posted by ManhattanProject

This is my opinion,



I think this lawsuit was about Take-Two saying STFU IMO. Why? Here's why. DNF has been in production for 12 years. During that time 3DR kept asking for money by T2 to make the game. If you've been giving money to company that's been making a game for over 12 years then the company decides to stop production, you would be pissed.

IIRC, they only asked once, which was at the tail end, which was also the bit where Take Two made their contract unfeasible.

Take Two offered a bonus if it was released in a certain year (2003?), and 3DR told them to Eff Off, they didn't ask for or need the bonus, and they wouldn't ship a game early.

[ManhattanProject]

Originally Posted by lordlonelobo

IIRC, they only asked once, which was at the tail end, which was also the bit where Take Two made their contract unfeasible.

Take Two offered a bonus if it was released in a certain year (2003?), and 3DR told them to Eff Off, they didn't ask for or need the bonus, and they wouldn't ship a game early.

Well, maybe 3DR would be done if....

The typical work flow there went something like this:
Designer would be assigned a task (build a new map, rebuild an old map, polish a bit of a map, etc.). Designer would work on said task for two, three weeks, a month, all the while lower management would be looking over it and making sure it was going in a "good general direction." Designer would move on to another task. A month or two later upper management would finally look at the work and say, "It's all wrong, do it again." Rinse, repeat.

Entire maps would be done from the ground up, almost to beta quality, and then thrown out simply because no one would make decisions early on in the process. (Read up on Valve's 'orange box' method of design -- that's how you make games)

[prophecy holder]

Originally Posted by lordlonelobo

they wouldn't ship a game early.

Well they certainly proved that. lol yes it was another dnf is late joke.

[MotzaballZ]

You know I'm right.

[prophecy holder]

The thread has crossed over the 1,000 post mark. Can the mods (or anyone) just lock this beast? Everything is being is just being repeated over and over that it's becoming old and stale.

[wieder]

Originally Posted by prophecy holder

The thread has crossed over the 1,000 post mark. Can the mods (or anyone) just lock this beast? Everything is being is just being repeated over and over that it's becoming old and stale.

I'm still waiting for Pikachu's next smarmy response to me.

[Tang Lung]

Originally Posted by wieder

I'm still waiting for Pikachu's next smarmy response to me.

I'm imagining that you actually meant the proper Pikachu..from Pokemon. Now I'm imagining how you can make 'Pika Pika! Pikkaa...CHUUUUUUUUUUUUU!' sound smarmy.

[Tualmasok]

Originally Posted by Tang Lung

I'm imagining that you actually meant the proper Pikachu..from Pokemon. Now I'm imagining how you can make 'Pika Pika! Pikkaa...CHUUUUUUUUUUUUU!' sound smarmy.

Say it in a cockney accent?

[ManhattanProject]

Originally Posted by prophecy holder

The thread has crossed over the 1,000 post mark. Can the mods (or anyone) just lock this beast? Everything is being is just being repeated over and over that it's becoming old and stale.

[Onebullit]

I think we can thank the Big Mouth of GB.
Telling your publisher the STFU and go ask money afterwards =) well done MR GB.
All this time he can finance his company and for the last sprint they need Take Two now and they are not polite too. In that situation If i was GB, i would stfu in stead of telling them to do so.

If you guys owned Take Two what would you do ?
- Take the insult and sit back like a little child.
- Or make a plan and stab 3DR in the back for saying such things and make them pay.

I know what i would do.

If 3DR think they are so great how come they didnt finish a game in freaking 12 years ?

[Lt.Havoc]

Originally Posted by Onebullit

If you guys owned Take Two what would you do ?
- Take the insult and sit back like a little child.
- Or make a plan and stab 3DR in the back for saying such things and make them pay.

I know what i would do.

Well, this isnt the Kindergarden or anything where you run to your mom crying because somone called names. Do you really thing they act like little children or something?

You must be out of your mind man.

If that would be the reason, Take 2 would have sued Rockstar Games as well, because these guys had the same attitude towards Take 2 if I rember correctly.

I also dont recall that 3DR said they are "great" or anything and I also recall correctly that GB said several times that they screwed up in the development of the game, did you guys forgot that, did you really not rember that GB posted here and said that they where unfamilar with the engine that they didnt had enough people and people that had exprinece with Unreal Tech?

I also would expect a delay if suddenly half of your dev team deices to quit (happend in 2006) and you suddenly need to hire new people.

I think that we should not forget those factors. Is it a excuse? I dunno, but seems like you guys all seem to know how to run a game company and make it better, so what the hell do I know?

[LeonZyCoene]

Originally Posted by prophecy holder

The thread has crossed over the 1,000 post mark. Can the mods (or anyone) just lock this beast? Everything is being is just being repeated over and over that it's becoming old and stale.

Dude, then just leave the thread.

There's threads I don't like on all the forums I visit. I just don't click them, because I'm not a re-re.

[Onebullit]

Originally Posted by Lt.Havoc

Well, this isnt the Kindergarden or anything where you run to your mom crying because somone called names. Do you really thing they act like little children or something?

You must be out of your mind man.

If that would be the reason, Take 2 would have sued Rockstar Games as well, because these guys had the same attitude towards Take 2 if I rember correctly.

I also dont recall that 3DR said they are "great" or anything and I also recall correctly that GB said several times that they screwed up in the development of the game, did you guys forgot that, did you really not rember that GB posted here and said that they where unfamilar with the engine that they didnt had enough people and people that had exprinece with Unreal Tech?

I also would expect a delay if suddenly half of your dev team deices to quit (happend in 2006) and you suddenly need to hire new people.

I think that we should not forget those factors. Is it a excuse? I dunno, but seems like you guys all seem to know how to run a game company and make it better, so what the hell do I know?

Ofcourse you don't run to your mom becouse GB insulted you......
You laugh at him and bring his company to the ground.
Come on, can you really say STFU to your publisher and get away with it.
It's that simple for me.
And Rockstar is a rockhard company that created alot of games,... you know right
Why would Take Two sue Rockstar? They bring money to the table.
3DR was bringing nothing but empty words like: When it's Done ....
Yeah whene it's done somewhere in the year 3024.

[naddie]

I haven't posted in a while, but am reading through all the court documents made public, and I have to say, 3DR might actually win.

Whether or not we'll see DNF, that's another story. It's more about 3DR protecting itself from Take 2's bully tactics.

However, we haven't seen anything from Take 2 that counters what 3DR put down on that document, either.

If the thread is all over the place, then, yes, please lock. But I'd like to see a thread open for discussions such as this.

[Wamplet]

I hope whatever is left of 3dr has money for handling the lawsuit.

[FlashBack]

Originally Posted by Wamplet

I hope whatever is left of 3dr has money for handling the lawsuit.

I hope whatever is left of 3dr has money for handling a new duke nukem fps game towards completion, no matter what the name of the game will be in the end.For all I care the game could be called the magical enchanted smurf island.If it's a new duke nukem fps for the pc, I will play it and hopefully love it. At this point pretty much anything will please me if it's an fps duke related game. I would even accept a tc mod.

[Wamplet]

my guess is as far as 3dr completing dnf or any other game, it would require a counter lawsuit against take two to provide the funding of said game(s).

[joey007]

yeah and we still have to hear about duke begins......................

[Crosma]

Originally Posted by Wamplet

my guess is as far as 3dr completing dnf or any other game, it would require a counter lawsuit against take two to provide the funding of said game(s).

They have filed that, but they only asked for a year's wage for one person. Even if 3DR win their counter-suit, they're not going to be in a significantly different position.

[Mcclure5]

I see 37 lawyers and 22 CEO's.... One time lets stick with obvious facts only. One, The website is still up for you to bitch about a game that didn't come out, and at any time you want to stop, feel free.

Two, who in the hell had breakfast with George Broussard to know any details period? Fact is dude is still around, still doing little things (like the Iphone) and reopening an online store. Give this motha ****a a break man... Dude is doing what he can as a person in this economic Bush **** up to keep what he and others started. You condemn a man for continually trying then you are a weak individual in heart and mind. (eat it up trolls)

Lastly, Duke Nukem Forever NAME has been cancelled, but by copywright laws, (even the developers who quit) any program written for a company using that company's equipment LEGALLY belongs to THAT company. (I know FIRST hand and tried to fight it and lost). So you can own the name Duke Nukem Forever all you want, they have every right to name it something else and use the same source code.

Now without facts, my pure speculation. How many games now a days are coming out that are just flat stupid, not fun, repetitive. (i swear if i had to grind one more orc!)

So this publisher gives them 12 years to develop a game. 12 years guys. If they were going to be pissed and say "get to the choppa now!" they would have done it about 5 years ago.......... instead in the midst of an economic failure, one meeting prepetuated, and just like that they do what? Pull funding? No.... They never actually funded the game (and i got the quote in a tips n tricks magazine somewhere in my closet from 2005, the one with Duke Nukem on the front) so all you lawyers go look that up. So why all of a sudden sue a company? I think they were hurting for money because gta3 didn't do all the expected and were hurting bad for money, so they did the dog eat dog on the most reliable case a lawyer threw at them. To sue a company for not delivering a game that has CONSTANTLY had no release date for years well before this lawsuit.

So all the people who cry on here, cry. All the people that support apogee, support em... I hope you all fire this thing up into a media frenzy, Hell I've already tried and continually trying. Media gets a hold of this, Take Two will burn hard because of them being the aggressors in this during an economic depression.

So by all means keep carrying on and please dont lock this thread

[Crosma]

Originally Posted by Mcclure5

Two, who in the hell had breakfast with George Broussard to know any details period?

Summary: Take-Two sued 3DR for not being able to deliver the DNF source-code and content by a set future date. Not being able to deliver will make it impossible for Take-Two to have it ported to the Xbox 360. DNF has NOT been cancelled, because officially cancelling would compound on the existing contractual breaches that 3DR are bound (according to Take-Two) to make. This is why Take-Two sued when the developers were fired and not "all of a sudden".

3DR counter-sued Take-Two for a tiny amount for halting work on Duke Begins without permission, but the current status of Duke Begins is otherwise unknown (and no-one had heard of it before). Take-Two paid 3DR for the right to make Duke Begins.

That's a gross simplification, given the wealth of information available. Note how practically everything you said is inconsistent with my summary.

Also, this has nothing to do with the current economic climate. At all. Whatsoever.

[Wamplet]

Originally Posted by Crosma

They have filed that, but they only asked for a year's wage for one person. Even if 3DR win their counter-suit, they're not going to be in a significantly different position.

Wow, one person? Do you know how much they were seeking for that one person or did they not specify the amount/person?

Not that it really matters for continuing funding, as you said, just curious.

I would expect it to be for more than one person and for a greater reason as well, unless it's just for the sake of filing a counter-suit.

[Mcclure5]

Originally Posted by Crosma

Summary: Take-Two sued 3DR for not being able to deliver the DNF source-code and content by a set future date. Not being able to deliver will make it impossible for Take-Two to have it ported to the Xbox 360. DNF has NOT been cancelled, because officially cancelling would compound on the existing contractual breaches that 3DR are bound (according to Take-Two) to make. This is why Take-Two sued when the developers were fired and not "all of a sudden".

3DR counter-sued Take-Two for a tiny amount for halting work on Duke Begins without permission, but the current status of Duke Begins is otherwise unknown (and no-one had heard of it before). Take-Two paid 3DR for the right to make Duke Begins.

That's a gross simplification, given the wealth of information available. Note how practically everything you said is inconsistent with my summary.

Also, this has nothing to do with the current economic climate. At all. Whatsoever.

Your summary started out completely ignorant to how a private company and a publisher work. They do not get the source code until the product is finished, or leaks happen, like crazy. Cheats will be available the first day of release and all kinds of other not good stuff. A port of a game nor the source code is why they are sueing them. You should check your dates since you have this "wealth" of information, that lawsuit had taken place far before anyone was layed off. If you have ever been to court for a lawsuit you would know this. This was a premeditated law suit in the manner of sueing them for not finishing the game well before they had lay offs. Take two hit a crunch, needed something bad, didnt like the offer was given to them and decided to get money in another fashion.......

Some people choose to read before they speak, others just want the attention.

Its better to know what you are talking about when you are talking about it, then to talk about it knowing nothing and

Originally Posted by Mcclure5

Some people choose to read before they speak, others just want the attention.

Its better to know what you are talking about when you are talking about it, then to talk about it knowing nothing and

My irony-alert is tingling.

[Crosma]

Originally Posted by Mcclure5

You should check your dates since you have this "wealth" of information, that lawsuit had taken place far before anyone was layed off.

Nope. Look:

7th of May, 2009 - First news that the development team was being laid off.

12th of May, 2009 - Lawsuit filed.

14th of May, 2009 - First news of lawsuit.

29th of May, 2009 - Removal into Federal court.

You can't go through life guessing, because you'll be wrong most of the time.

---------- Post added at 03:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Wamplet

Wow, one person? Do you know how much they were seeking for that one person or did they not specify the amount/person?

Well, they asked for "far in excess of $75,000, excluding interest and costs, including lost royalties and damage to the Duke Nukem franchise right", so I was sort of misrepresenting what they said. Although it is a pretty weak starting position.

Take-Two are asking for millions as a minimum. It's a whole different kettle of fish.

[LeonZyCoene]

*screams from the sidelines*

GO CROSMA!

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Originally Posted by Crosma

Well, they asked for "far in excess of $75,000, excluding interest and costs, including lost royalties and damage to the Duke Nukem franchise right", so I was sort of misrepresenting what they said. Although it is a pretty weak starting position.

Take-Two are asking for millions as a minimum. It's a whole different kettle of fish.

$75,000 is the minimum amount for a federal diversity suit of this nature (parties from two different states). 3DR has not stated how much they want. Though really, 3DR's only complaint is that take2 wouldn't lend them more money. Take2 had no obligation to fund 3dr.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/28/1332.html

Also Mcclure5, you know next to nothing about how lawsuits work.

[FPS SpitFire]

Originally Posted by Inanimate Carbon Rod

you know next to nothing about how lawsuits work.

[Monkey Butler]

Originally Posted by Inanimate Carbon Rod

Also Mcclure5, you know next to nothing about how lawsuits work.

Take it from me mate, it doesn't matter how many times you tell people that, they'll keep making uninformed posts.

[peoplessi]

Lawyers

[joey007]

they tick me off

[Kristian Joensen]

"Though really, 3DR's only complaint is that take2 wouldn't lend them more money. Take2 had no obligation to fund 3dr."

No, their main complaint is that they cancelled Duke Begins without 3DR's approval. That is also significant for Take Two wanting the 2.5 Million since it was an advance against both the DNF AND Duke Begins royalty streams. Meaning that they argument 3DR WILL default eventually is completely bogus since ONLY the part left over(if ANY) unrecouped after DNF's AND Duke Begins release would be a loan to be repaid and ONLY if 3DR fails to release DNF by October 22nd, 2012. So wheter there exists a loan or not depends on Duke Begins being released.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen

"Though really, 3DR's only complaint is that take2 wouldn't lend them more money. Take2 had no obligation to fund 3dr."

No, their main complaint is that they cancelled Duke Begins without 3DR's approval. That is also significant for Take Two wanting the 2.5 Million since it was an advance against both the DNF AND Duke Begins royalty streams. Meaning that they argument 3DR WILL default eventually is completely bogus since ONLY the part left over(if ANY) unrecouped after DNF's AND Duke Begins release would be a loan to be repaid and ONLY if 3DR fails to release DNF by October 22nd, 2012. So wheter there exists a loan or not depends on Duke Begins being released.

Kristian wouldn't you find it ironic for 3drealms to complain about a delayed game?

If you lend me $25000 and we set a due date for repayment 5 years in the future. Next month I get in a bad bicycle accident and it is very apparent that I will never be financially able to repay the loan.

Should you wait 5 years and get recoup what little, if any, money is left; or should you sue now to be able to get most if not all of your money back?


I think the answer is clear.



Anyway this Duke Begins thing is somewhat silly. Take 2 pays 3dr for the right to make the game. Take 2 funds development of Duke Begins. 3DR hasn't lost anything.

[Kristian Joensen]

"
Should you wait 5 years and get recoup what little, if any, money is left; or should you sue now to be able to get most if not all of your money back?"

You should only able to get "most if not all" now if there is an explicit clause to that effect in the contract. But you need to understand how advances work in the game industry, check out the sidebar at the end of this article. Even if you were correct in the above, the $2.5 Million are tied to the revenue stream of Duke Begins. So given Duke Begins the case is NOT at all analogous to your bicycle accident case, since it is not at all "very apparent that I will never be financially able to repay the loan." far from it. Say 3DR's license fee for Duke Begins is 20% of wholesale - cogs and wholesale is $33 and cogs are $3. Then 3DRs cut is $6/unit sold, so the advance would be recouped after, $2.5 Million / $6 = 416,667 copies sold. So the only way that Take Two can be sure that 3DR won't be able to "repay" it is if they know for certain that Duke Begins won't sell enough and the only way they can know that is if Duke Begins is canncelled which would constitute Take Two breaking the contract.

"Kristian wouldn't you find it ironic for 3drealms to complain about a delayed game?"

You might say that, but Take Two contractually agreed to abide by a schedule for Duke Begins and agreed to give 3DR approval rights for any changes in said schedule. 3D Realms NEVER agreed to the same with regards to DNF.