A Daggerfall TC?

EmericaSkater · 08-14-2009, 08:17 AM

Well, the title is a question, but this more of a statement. Around January I popped up on these forums, asked a handful of stupid questions to kickstart my coding tenure, then vanished. What I started working on was a mod that would recreate the atmosphere (and storyline) of Daggerfall while having the more fast-paced gameplay Duke or Hexen. It's been about 6 months since then, and I'm getting close to coding all of the changes I wanted. I didn't plan on announcing anything till it was 100% complete, but the simple fact is I'm not enough of a whiz at this stuff to get down everything I've got in mind, and I'm also getting kind of nervous about a few other things as I get closer and closer to getting done. Among my reservations were issues of legality since this mod relies HEAVILY on textures, sprites, sounds and music from Daggerfall (it's been released as freeware by Bethesda recently, though, so some of those fears were quelled), and now a sudden realization after seeing my nearly complete project that modding community for Duke might not appreciate the massive overhaul I've made to the game. I'm posting this thread largely because of the latter. I want people to kind of get a feel for this mod before I release it.

First, a list all the changes I've made...

* Tons of textures, sounds and MIDI's from Daggerfall
* A new hud that I pretty much made by copying/pasting a dialog screen from Daggerfall
*Numerous enemies pulled from other DOS FPS games (Hexen, Blood, Strife, etc)
*Interactive (somewhat) peasants and guards.
*Melee combat with a particular combo with fist attacks and a sword with three different types of swings
*Spells constituting the majority of your ranged attacks, all of which are based on one mana (ammo) amount

There's several more that I can't quite think of right now....So, I guess I'll let the screenshots I've taken do the rest of my talking.

random shot of the outside of a town, with a few peasants walking around.

Talking to a peasant. I'm hoping I can add a bit more depth and interactivity to this part of the mod.

The inside of a house.

Talking to a guard. Just like the traditional Daggerfall fuzz, they'll come after you hollering "HALTHALTHALT" if you pull a no-no within city walls.

EmericaSkater · 08-14-2009, 08:17 AM

Onto dungeons and combat. Here we have a dungeon from the outside.

and a few shots from the inside...

and me and a mage start to tangle.

The mage after I casted a fire ball. Unfortunately he cast a teleport spell right around the same time...

then reappeared to cast a fireball of his own, which fragged me.

EmericaSkater · 08-14-2009, 08:20 AM

Scrapping it out with a gang of ettins....

with a well-rounded knock out...

then some sword-swinging fun...

and a few casting animations..

Sang · 08-14-2009, 08:49 AM

It seems pretty good, for a moment there I thought it was actually Daggerfall. But that was only because of the HUD. Then I noticed the enemies and textures and such that are not from Daggerfall. Wouldn't be a big deal if only those enemies (like the Hexen one) haven't been seen before in a few million other mods.

DeeperThought · 08-14-2009, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sang

Wouldn't be a big deal if only those enemies (like the Hexen one) haven't been seen before in a few million other mods.

Ettins are being used in WGR2, and I think that wizard appears in AMC TC. That's two mods, not a million. And even if I'm forgetting some and it's five mods, it's no big deal.

It looks like he's done a great job so far, especially when you consider that he's been working by himself. There's a lot of impressive stuff there. For example, the status bars in the HUD appear to be functional.

@EmericaSkater: Can you post a movie? That would tell us a lot.

If you want people to get excited about this, you need a hook; something that makes people say "I want to play that right now!". It could be a badass set of weapons, a fun and innovative melee combat system, jaw dropping level design, etc. Right now, it looks pretty good, but kind of generic.

EmericaSkater · 08-14-2009, 09:31 AM

I'd like to post a movie, especially since the screenshots have pretty shoddy resolution, but I've honestly got no clue how to go about doing that, or what I'd host it through. If you could help me out, DT, I'd appreciate it. If it was anyone's attention I wanted to grab by posting this it was yours and the compliments honestly made my heart skip a beat. The status bar is indeed completely functional, with the red bar on the right measuring the player's fatigue (for now it just limits how long you can run for. Essentially a modified version of sprinting) There's other things I'm trying to do with it. For instance, most of the screen shots were taken from a sampler level I'm throwing together that has a town acting as sort of a central hub. The level has a "main" quest you need to do in order to beat it, but if you walk around town and talk to people, you can begin other side quests that are entirely optional. I guess I'm trying to make the game a bit less linear, so that's sort of my hook (at least with this level). But if you can help me figure out how to post a movie of the town or combat, that'd definitely help illustrate what this mod's all about way better than any screenshot.

Telee · 08-14-2009, 09:51 AM

Looks great, I love Daggerfall and your screens capture it perfectly. Would be nice playing it on the Build engine instead of the horribly glitchy Xngine.

One thing I noticed immediately though is that annoying HUD in the top-right corner. Should only have it appear when talking to someone, otherwise it's distracting and annoying.

DeeperThought · 08-14-2009, 11:10 AM

I use FRAPS to record my movies, then I post them on YouTube. Fraps is pretty useless unless it is a fully functional (i.e. registered or hacked) copy though.

Sang · 08-14-2009, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeeperThought

Ettins are being used in WGR2, and I think that wizard appears in AMC TC. That's two mods, not a million. And even if I'm forgetting some and it's five mods, it's no big deal.

Well yeah but even so it's weird. It's not a "big deal" as you said, but it does kinda take me out of the whole "Daggerfall" vibe.

Forge · 08-14-2009, 06:41 PM

Looks pretty neat and getting some old Daggerfall flashbacks. I just hope you haven't implemented those annoying random dungeons.
I have that game in a box somewhere, just have to dig it out, make a third partition so the quest items aren't invisible, and configure dosbox....maybe later.

DeeperThought · 08-14-2009, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forge

Looks pretty neat and getting some old Daggerfall flashbacks. I just hope you haven't implemented those annoying random dungeons.

I wouldn't worry about that. It would be VERY difficult to make random dungeons that were different each time you played in a Duke mod.

Forge · 08-14-2009, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeeperThought

I wouldn't worry about that. It would be VERY difficult to make random dungeons that were different each time you played in a Duke mod.

It's not like those non-main quest dungeons were complex. Someone could easily make a hundred of those things. Though I don't know how hard it would be to figure out some kind of randomizing hub system that rotates them.

(wonder if he'll implement the cheat where you can jump off the boat and get to the island)

Daedolon · 08-15-2009, 01:39 AM

This would seem like something I'd like (combining two of my favourite games, Daggerfall and Duke), but I'm very unsure if the Hexen and Strife sprites fit in at all.

Is there any character customization yet in?

EmericaSkater · 08-15-2009, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daedolon

This would seem like something I'd like (combining two of my favourite games, Daggerfall and Duke), but I'm very unsure if the Hexen and Strife sprites fit in at all.

Is there any character customization yet in?

Maybe, but the pickings for enemies are pretty slim. See, I don't want to use Daggerfall's baddies (...least not for enemies) because they lack a death animation which I don't feel would translate very well in a Duke TC. Honestly, though, I don't understand the reservations with Hexen's enemies at all. Maybe my view is a little too broad, but Ettins are kind of a static bad guy in fantasy games and Daggerfall is a fun, rather garden variety, fantasy game so I didn't think there would be any problem with them fitting in at all.

Either way they're going to have to stay since there's not much else I can put in. There's no character customization yet since I don't plan on doing the paper doll thing Daggerfall had, though I've considered creating a looting system where you can loot a dead body instead of an enemy just dropping their goodies when they die. The problem with this is that it's going to require me to code an interface and an entire inventory system which will likely be complex and quite time-consuming, so that might have to wait till this sampler's finished. On that note, let me clarify that I'm not trying to recreate Daggerfall. Anybody that's played that game knows how impossible that would be, and even if it were possible it still wouldn't be within my capacity since, as DT observed, this has all been a one-man operation. I don't have the ability or patience to accurately create even on province from Daggerfall, let alone all of Tamriel. So no, there won't be any randomized dungeons, and even though I've entertained coding some of the goofy bugs Daggerfall had for nostalgia's sake, there won't likely be any of those appearing in this mod either.

Sang · 08-15-2009, 04:02 AM

Your points are all valid and I'm sure I'll be able to get over it at one point but still.. it's weird to have an environment that resembles Daggerfall, calling the mod Daggerfall TC and then have plenty of entities that are not from Daggerfall. It still fits the theme, it's just that we all know where the enemies came from and such that makes it a bit odd. It's a bit like having the Doom IMP in a Duke mod. The more instantly recognizable the monster is, the less useful it would be in mods that are trying to display a game where the famous enemy is not from.

It fits better in a "generic" fantasy mod like WGR2 because that one doesn't really give the description that "this is a Hexen mod" or "this is a Doom mod" which is why it can get away with a more broad pick of various well-known enemies much better.

Anyway, again, my opinion is based solely on a silly feeling, I can understand perfectly why you're using them. But perhaps consider the option of adding in death animations somehow, perhaps you can find a sprite artist?

EmericaSkater · 08-15-2009, 04:22 AM

Well, like I said, this mod's aim is to recreate the atmosphere of Daggerfall while getting the gameplay to be closer to something like Hexen. But that point to past, I understand where you're coming from, but it's simply going to have to stand since, unless Mark Jones is working for free these days, I don't think I'm going to find anyone that can create a death animation for Daggerfall's enemies.

Daedolon · 08-15-2009, 04:50 AM

Daggerfall has one of the most hugest selection of enemies I've seen any single game, you can easily code past the lack of death animations, such as make enemies fly back in their walk animation and make them fall down and change the animation to the death frame halfway through.

Daggerfall just has this very unique graphical style of enemies that does not allow you to add cartoonish Hexen or Strife sprites.

I love all three games to death but I just don't see why you should break the notion of being a Daggerfall TC.

EmericaSkater · 08-15-2009, 05:10 AM

Wow. Maybe now we just have a difference in standards. I honestly never thought Hexen sprites were all that cartoonish

Daedolon · 08-15-2009, 05:19 AM

In comparison to Daggerfall.

Forge · 08-15-2009, 06:17 AM

If you're going to explore the possibilities of body looting and inventory the Betrayal at Krondor style might fit.

EmericaSkater · 08-17-2009, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daedolon

Daggerfall has one of the most hugest selection of enemies I've seen any single game, you can easily code past the lack of death animations, such as make enemies fly back in their walk animation and make them fall down and change the animation to the death frame halfway through.

Daggerfall just has this very unique graphical style of enemies that does not allow you to add cartoonish Hexen or Strife sprites.

I love all three games to death but I just don't see why you should break the notion of being a Daggerfall TC.

Maybe I'm unimaginative, but I can't really think of any coding trick that will keep somebody from realizing "Hey, that guy just went from standing to lying on the ground without a single frame of animation between" The knockback idea you mentioned was the only thing I could think of while I was initially brainstorming for this mod, but the problem is that I'm going to have to use it every time an enemy dies ontop of using it when an enemy's hit by particular melee attacks or spells.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forge

If you're going to explore the possibilities of body looting and inventory the Betrayal at Krondor style might fit.

Never heard of it. Would you kindly enlighten me?

Forge · 08-17-2009, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmericaSkater

Never heard of it. Would you kindly enlighten me?

It's an RPG from '98 released as freeware.
There's some images on the wiki page that show the inventory screen which doesn't look too much different than the body looting screen. Of course having just one character instead of three leaves alot more options open since the player doesn't have to switch back and forth to shuffle the inventory items.
It's just convenient in Betrayal at Krondor that not only can the player remove items from a fallen enemy, they can take items from their inventory that they no longer want or need and place them on the body.

Google or wiki if you want to know more:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c...&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

http://images.google.com/images?clie...title&resnum=4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betrayal_at_Krondor

Plagman · 08-17-2009, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeeperThought

I wouldn't worry about that. It would be VERY difficult to make random dungeons that were different each time you played in a Duke mod.

Would it? It's always made me sad that nobody ever seems to bother experimenting with that. There's so much you could potentially achieve with BUILD + CON than just fixed maps. Is some specific bug/lack of feature heavily impairing the development a random level generator like Diablo 2 has?

Mr.Fibbles · 08-17-2009, 08:55 AM

Are you able to move/change/create walls in CON?

I know there is a random maze maker but that is an application that runs externally.

DeeperThought · 08-17-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plagman

Would it? It's always made me sad that nobody ever seems to bother experimenting with that. There's so much you could potentially achieve with BUILD + CON than just fixed maps. Is some specific bug/lack of feature heavily impairing the development a random level generator like Diablo 2 has?

I have never attempted it, but it seems to me that it would be difficult because you would have to build maps with code instead of a map editor. With no visual feedback, it would be a very abstract exercise. You would have to go into the game constantly to see what the code was doing, and it would be slow going, I predict.

Also, AFAIK you can't create new walls or sectors in-game, so there has to be a lot of them lying around in the map which you can then move. But you can't just move them any old way -- the way that the sectors and wall points are connected has to be carefully manipulated. I'm assuming that you can reassign connections by changing the struct members, but I've never done that. You wrote CON code for map mirroring and scaling, but in that case the the point connections and sector relationships are preserved, so I have never seen an example of how they could be changed, let alone safely.

Plagman · 08-18-2009, 11:09 AM

Not being able to read/write numwalls/numsectors from CON code is definitely something that needs to be fixed. After that's possible, the possibilities are limitless. I might take the time to write some proof of concept code of what could be achieved to point ambitious modders to the right direction.

As for making maps with code, not necessarily. Say the mapper and the coder both agree on an interface with a defined tile size and a connecting sector width. Then the mapper can just build several tiles in the map file and tag them appropriately so that the CON code knows how many there are and how they can be linked (for a trivial example it could be restricted to 4 potential connexions along the x/y axises, but anything is possible if done right). You could then have "fixed" tile regions that the mapper would hardcode on the map at certain places, because you don't want everything to be randomized - like in Diablo 2 where the last levels usually have a boss area that was built by hand.

The map mirroring code does reassign all sector connections, since mirroring a sector also means changing the winding order of its wall loops.

08-14-2009, 08:17 AM	#1
EmericaSkater	A Daggerfall TC? Well, the title is a question, but this more of a statement. Around January I popped up on these forums, asked a handful of stupid questions to kickstart my coding tenure, then vanished. What I started working on was a mod that would recreate the atmosphere (and storyline) of Daggerfall while having the more fast-paced gameplay Duke or Hexen. It's been about 6 months since then, and I'm getting close to coding all of the changes I wanted. I didn't plan on announcing anything till it was 100% complete, but the simple fact is I'm not enough of a whiz at this stuff to get down everything I've got in mind, and I'm also getting kind of nervous about a few other things as I get closer and closer to getting done. Among my reservations were issues of legality since this mod relies HEAVILY on textures, sprites, sounds and music from Daggerfall (it's been released as freeware by Bethesda recently, though, so some of those fears were quelled), and now a sudden realization after seeing my nearly complete project that modding community for Duke might not appreciate the massive overhaul I've made to the game. I'm posting this thread largely because of the latter. I want people to kind of get a feel for this mod before I release it. First, a list all the changes I've made... * Tons of textures, sounds and MIDI's from Daggerfall * A new hud that I pretty much made by copying/pasting a dialog screen from Daggerfall Numerous enemies pulled from other DOS FPS games (Hexen, Blood, Strife, etc) Interactive (somewhat) peasants and guards. Melee combat with a particular combo with fist attacks and a sword with three different types of swings Spells constituting the majority of your ranged attacks, all of which are based on one mana (ammo) amount There's several more that I can't quite think of right now....So, I guess I'll let the screenshots I've taken do the rest of my talking. random shot of the outside of a town, with a few peasants walking around. Talking to a peasant. I'm hoping I can add a bit more depth and interactivity to this part of the mod. The inside of a house. Talking to a guard. Just like the traditional Daggerfall fuzz, they'll come after you hollering "HALTHALTHALT" if you pull a no-no within city walls.

08-14-2009, 08:17 AM	#2
EmericaSkater	Re: A Daggerfall TC? Onto dungeons and combat. Here we have a dungeon from the outside. and a few shots from the inside... and me and a mage start to tangle. The mage after I casted a fire ball. Unfortunately he cast a teleport spell right around the same time... then reappeared to cast a fireball of his own, which fragged me.

08-14-2009, 08:20 AM	#3
EmericaSkater	Re: A Daggerfall TC? Scrapping it out with a gang of ettins.... with a well-rounded knock out... then some sword-swinging fun... and a few casting animations..

08-14-2009, 08:49 AM	#4
Sang	Re: A Daggerfall TC? It seems pretty good, for a moment there I thought it was actually Daggerfall. But that was only because of the HUD. Then I noticed the enemies and textures and such that are not from Daggerfall. Wouldn't be a big deal if only those enemies (like the Hexen one) haven't been seen before in a few million other mods. __________________ traB pu kcip

08-14-2009, 09:31 AM	#6
EmericaSkater	Re: A Daggerfall TC? I'd like to post a movie, especially since the screenshots have pretty shoddy resolution, but I've honestly got no clue how to go about doing that, or what I'd host it through. If you could help me out, DT, I'd appreciate it. If it was anyone's attention I wanted to grab by posting this it was yours and the compliments honestly made my heart skip a beat. The status bar is indeed completely functional, with the red bar on the right measuring the player's fatigue (for now it just limits how long you can run for. Essentially a modified version of sprinting) There's other things I'm trying to do with it. For instance, most of the screen shots were taken from a sampler level I'm throwing together that has a town acting as sort of a central hub. The level has a "main" quest you need to do in order to beat it, but if you walk around town and talk to people, you can begin other side quests that are entirely optional. I guess I'm trying to make the game a bit less linear, so that's sort of my hook (at least with this level). But if you can help me figure out how to post a movie of the town or combat, that'd definitely help illustrate what this mod's all about way better than any screenshot.

08-14-2009, 09:51 AM	#7
Telee	Re: A Daggerfall TC? Looks great, I love Daggerfall and your screens capture it perfectly. Would be nice playing it on the Build engine instead of the horribly glitchy Xngine. One thing I noticed immediately though is that annoying HUD in the top-right corner. Should only have it appear when talking to someone, otherwise it's distracting and annoying. __________________ Smoker incapacitated Telee

08-14-2009, 11:10 AM	#8
DeeperThought	Re: A Daggerfall TC? I use FRAPS to record my movies, then I post them on YouTube. Fraps is pretty useless unless it is a fully functional (i.e. registered or hacked) copy though. __________________ DUKE PLUS New map effects and various optional extras for Duke 3D. DUKE NUKEM: ATTRITION XP based weapon upgrades, progressive difficulty, and more.

08-14-2009, 06:41 PM	#10
Forge	Re: A Daggerfall TC? Looks pretty neat and getting some old Daggerfall flashbacks. I just hope you haven't implemented those annoying random dungeons. I have that game in a box somewhere, just have to dig it out, make a third partition so the quest items aren't invisible, and configure dosbox....maybe later.

08-15-2009, 01:39 AM	#13
Daedolon	Re: A Daggerfall TC? This would seem like something I'd like (combining two of my favourite games, Daggerfall and Duke), but I'm very unsure if the Hexen and Strife sprites fit in at all. Is there any character customization yet in? __________________ Duke Hard - 17 map episode for Duke Nukem 3D.

08-15-2009, 04:02 AM	#15
Sang	Re: A Daggerfall TC? Your points are all valid and I'm sure I'll be able to get over it at one point but still.. it's weird to have an environment that resembles Daggerfall, calling the mod Daggerfall TC and then have plenty of entities that are not from Daggerfall. It still fits the theme, it's just that we all know where the enemies came from and such that makes it a bit odd. It's a bit like having the Doom IMP in a Duke mod. The more instantly recognizable the monster is, the less useful it would be in mods that are trying to display a game where the famous enemy is not from. It fits better in a "generic" fantasy mod like WGR2 because that one doesn't really give the description that "this is a Hexen mod" or "this is a Doom mod" which is why it can get away with a more broad pick of various well-known enemies much better. Anyway, again, my opinion is based solely on a silly feeling, I can understand perfectly why you're using them. But perhaps consider the option of adding in death animations somehow, perhaps you can find a sprite artist? __________________ traB pu kcip

08-15-2009, 04:22 AM	#16
EmericaSkater	Re: A Daggerfall TC? Well, like I said, this mod's aim is to recreate the atmosphere of Daggerfall while getting the gameplay to be closer to something like Hexen. But that point to past, I understand where you're coming from, but it's simply going to have to stand since, unless Mark Jones is working for free these days, I don't think I'm going to find anyone that can create a death animation for Daggerfall's enemies.

08-15-2009, 04:50 AM	#17
Daedolon	Re: A Daggerfall TC? Daggerfall has one of the most hugest selection of enemies I've seen any single game, you can easily code past the lack of death animations, such as make enemies fly back in their walk animation and make them fall down and change the animation to the death frame halfway through. Daggerfall just has this very unique graphical style of enemies that does not allow you to add cartoonish Hexen or Strife sprites. I love all three games to death but I just don't see why you should break the notion of being a Daggerfall TC. __________________ Duke Hard - 17 map episode for Duke Nukem 3D.

08-15-2009, 05:10 AM	#18
EmericaSkater	Re: A Daggerfall TC? Wow. Maybe now we just have a difference in standards. I honestly never thought Hexen sprites were all that cartoonish

08-15-2009, 05:19 AM	#19
Daedolon	Re: A Daggerfall TC? In comparison to Daggerfall. __________________ Duke Hard - 17 map episode for Duke Nukem 3D.

08-15-2009, 06:17 AM	#20
Forge	Re: A Daggerfall TC? If you're going to explore the possibilities of body looting and inventory the Betrayal at Krondor style might fit.

08-17-2009, 08:55 AM	#24
Mr.Fibbles	Re: A Daggerfall TC? Are you able to move/change/create walls in CON? I know there is a random maze maker but that is an application that runs externally. __________________ http://thaunandshad.com

08-18-2009, 11:09 AM	#26
Plagman	Re: A Daggerfall TC? Not being able to read/write numwalls/numsectors from CON code is definitely something that needs to be fixed. After that's possible, the possibilities are limitless. I might take the time to write some proof of concept code of what could be achieved to point ambitious modders to the right direction. As for making maps with code, not necessarily. Say the mapper and the coder both agree on an interface with a defined tile size and a connecting sector width. Then the mapper can just build several tiles in the map file and tag them appropriately so that the CON code knows how many there are and how they can be linked (for a trivial example it could be restricted to 4 potential connexions along the x/y axises, but anything is possible if done right). You could then have "fixed" tile regions that the mapper would hardcode on the map at certain places, because you don't want everything to be randomized - like in Diablo 2 where the last levels usually have a boss area that was built by hand. The map mirroring code does reassign all sector connections, since mirroring a sector also means changing the winding order of its wall loops. __________________ EDuke32 - "The corrupt doctrine of terror has begun."