Replay Value

[crunchy superman]

At this point, (re)playability is the controversy.

I don't see anything controversial about strippers. They're something absolutely normal and most people want them in the game..so, yeah they should be in the game. Won't be the same without 'em.

[Denz]

They really suck. In the first place don't let your ****ing child play violent game and voila.

And if he rebels, use violence on him, like you saw on that other video game.

[mr. pinky demon]

Many of critics are mad because they Only featured women as being strippers or prostitutes. Something like debasing women as being only toys to men or some crap like that.

[Mr.Sociopath]

yeah..when we all know it's based on actual fact..duke 3d was a real life simulator

[mr. pinky demon]

Well ya, but there's always those pesky feminist ruining everything.

[Denz]

Not our fault if in the real world women really do that stuff. And they agree to do it.

[Tim. Just Tim.]

Anyway,
I really hope 3dr doesnt puss out and give in to all the PC douchebags out there. I hope DNF is at least as 'controversial' as D3D was. Or Shadow Warror for that matter

If the game is overly violent, and overly disrespectful to women and overly smutty and overly controversial, then whats the worst that could happen? Youll get a few Jack Thompson wannabees who do their best to bad mouth the game, and the game itself will sell a rediculous amount of copies.

DNF should be bigger and better than D3D in every way. If DNF is any less 'controversial' than D3D, we'll know that 3DR succumbed to 'the pressure'.

[Amakou]

Originally Posted by Tim. Just Tim.

Anyway,
I really hope 3dr doesnt puss out and give in to all the PC douchebags out there. I hope DNF is at least as 'controversial' as D3D was. Or Shadow Warror for that matter

If the game is overly violent, and overly disrespectful to women and overly smutty and overly controversial, then whats the worst that could happen? Youll get a few Jack Thompson wannabees who do their best to bad mouth the game, and the game itself will sell a rediculous amount of copies.

DNF should be bigger and better than D3D in every way. If DNF is any less 'controversial' than D3D, we'll know that 3DR succumbed to 'the pressure'.

Whether you want it to be or not, it will be less controversial. Why? Because Duke Nukem 3D helped set the bar for what is not considered acceptable. Therefore what was controversial then, is not necessarily controversial now. If they listened to you they'd end up with an AO rated game, which they don't want.

~Amakou~

[baff]

Random spawns is an easy aid to replayability.

[baff]

Originally Posted by Amakou

If they listened to you they'd end up with an AO rated game, which they don't want.

~Amakou~

Pity. Everyone else here wants it.
We love porn.

[John]

Everyone here is about .5% of the gaming market. (Probably more like .0001%)

[Commando Nukem]

Originally Posted by baff

Pity. Everyone else here wants it.
We love porn.

The interweb has plenty of porn, of real women at that, not pixels and polygons.

I will never understand the huge appeal of polygonal women. Im not saying Duke shouldn't have what its always had, but you don't have to go overboard with it just to be Duke. Duke 3D had maybe four actual "adult" enviroments or situations, with just a few minor things sprinkled in for effect. It was never the entire game that was specfically about sex. So lets not make it about that. :P

[John]

I don't think strippers are that controversial anymore. Vampire:Bloodlines has them, only in strip clubs and such (although they have prostitutes scattered around the streets ) and they seem to work fine for the "gritty" feel of it. I'm not sure if DNF will have prostitutes though.

[alexgk]

Originally Posted by mr. pinky demon

However, how many of you are actually gonna replay the game, on a harder difficulty, right after you finished it?

Me . Not only once, but as many as I can.

[Kev9709]

As others have said, Duke 3D struck a nerve because it was over-the-top back then and treaded in uncharted territory. But, as more of the same appeared, people became desensitized to the content, thus raising the bar for what is considered tolerable.

It's hard to say what kind of crap will be thrown at DNF if it ever even comes out. We have no way of gauging the controversy because between now and the day DNF sees a store shelf, there will be many, many, MANY more potentially controversial games that will end up paving the road for the next Duke. That is why it must be incredibly difficult to balance how "innovative" a game is. Not enough questionable content, and it's just another game. Too much, and it's a political nightmare.

When Duke Nukem Forever is released, I hope that Hilary will be too tired from her first term of office and lay off on her video game vendetta.

[Ras]

"Duke Nukem 3D moves the 'shooter' through pornography stores, where Duke can use XXX sex posters for target practice.

You can use them for target practice only by virtue of the fact that you can shoot at any surface. In ten years, I've never even thought to specifically target a poster.

Duke throws cash at a prostituted woman telling her to 'Shake it, Baby' his gun ever ready.

I can't test it right now, but I believe he lowers his weapon when giving money. Besides, it's not because we are supposed to imagine Duke threatening the woman. Automatically lowering your weapon when aiming at an NPC was pretty rare back then.

In the game bonus points are awarded for the murder of these mostly prostituted and partially nude women.

At least in the PC version, you aren't playing for points. And, you are punished for killing women (exception, alien-infected women) by having enemies warp in.

Duke blows up stained glass windows in an empty church or goes to strip clubs where Japanese women lower their kimonos exposing their breasts.

Those are statues, and it's just a quirky little Easter egg.

Duke is encouraged to kill defenseless, often bound women.

Duke isn't encouraged to kill any women except the infected. In fact, as noted above, he is punished by having aliens warp in.

Some players go through killing the women. I always tried to make sure they were out of the line of fire, didn't suffer splash damage, etc. Neither way of playing makes a real difference, but it was a step in making the game interactive and more real.

Another argument I used to see when the game came out was that it was sexist because the women just stood around and basically didn't do anything. Well, the engine had limitations, and computers of the time had limitations. You couldn't have a bustling city with people moving around, doing their own thing. All you could basically do was have a couple standing around here and there.

[Mr.Fibbles]

DNF coming out will be controversial because it has been in stasis for so long.
I think the replay value goes up the most when the modding community gets a shot at the game. Without the ability to make new levels etc, games seem to loose replay value. I mean, DN3D has great replay value besides, but the fact that I could make my own levels and download levels made by others, made the game last that much longer.

[mr. pinky demon]

Originally Posted by Ras

Another argument I used to see when the game came out was that it was sexist because the women just stood around and basically didn't do anything. Well, the engine had limitations, and computers of the time had limitations. You couldn't have a bustling city with people moving around, doing their own thing. All you could basically do was have a couple standing around here and there.

They found it sexist cause they only featured women as being hookers, floozies, cheerleaders, and prostitutes.

[Ras]

No, I literally debated a guy who said it was sexist because they didn't even move around and have lives. True, he didn't like that that your list is all they were, but he mainly was saying that they were just objects because they just stood there.

[wayskobfssae]

Originally Posted by mr. pinky demon

"Duke Nukem 3D moves the 'shooter' through pornography stores, where Duke can use XXX sex posters for target practice. Duke throws cash at a prostituted woman telling her to 'Shake it, Baby' his gun ever ready. In the game bonus points are awarded for the murder of these mostly prostituted and partially nude women. Duke blows up stained glass windows in an empty church or goes to strip clubs where Japanese women lower their kimonos exposing their breasts. Duke is encouraged to kill defenseless, often bound women.

Last time I shot one of the chicks (non-infested), I got "rewarded" with three monsters spawning on top of me. Duke's voice shows displeasure when it happens too.

That whole quote though is obvious anti-videogame propaganda. Mentioning that it's POSSIBLE To shoot out church windows as a way of trying to say that Duke encourages players to go out and do it IRL. Or how the gun is pointed at a chick when she's performing for him as a way of saying that Duke is threatening them. And since when did a bikini top become a kimono? The "japanese women" showing their breasts were strippers. That's what strippers do. They... strip. Is this a very difficult concept for that writer?

Will Duke shock the world again? Not likely, unless 3DR comes up with some form of perversion that is truly unique to the gaming world. Can't imagine what that would be though. I think the GTA series has covered everything in the past few years, and Duke is a hero, not a villain.

[wayskobfssae]

Originally Posted by Ras

No, I literally debated a guy who said it was sexist because they didn't even move around and have lives. True, he didn't like that that your list is all they were, but he mainly was saying that they were just objects because they just stood there.

Did he take into account when the game was made? The fact that the strippers respond to interaction AT ALL was a huge advancement in technology right there. There was only so much you could make a game do at the time and no game did even close to what Duke could when it was released.

[Micki!]

Originally Posted by wayskobfssae

And since when did a bikini top become a kimono? The "japanese women" showing their breasts were strippers.

Not that i'd like to participate in any bigger discussion here, but i have to correct you regarding this..!

In Episode 3, the first level (Shrapnel City) there are Japanese statues (resembling women) wearing kimonos standing in front of the Shushi bars... If interacting with them, they will expose thier breasts... Nothing big, it was more like an easter egg...

[mr. pinky demon]

Its big to people who cant take a little nudity and those people are really annoying. Besides, wheh you played the church part (could there be more than one?) it was defiled by the aliens. It was an evil church.

[Ras]

Did he take into account when the game was made? The fact that the strippers respond to interaction AT ALL was a huge advancement in technology right there. There was only so much you could make a game do at the time and no game did even close to what Duke could when it was released.

Yeah, this was actually back when the game was released. I kept arguing that they just couldn't have tons of characters going about their lives with the limits of technology, but I never got anywhere.

[Mr.Sociopath]

Originally Posted by mr. pinky demon

They found it sexist cause they only featured women as being hookers, floozies, cheerleaders, and prostitutes.

yes this must be in..

[wayskobfssae]

Maybe the game just needs an interactive dominatrix dungeon. That'd blow the competition out of the water and give the game plenty of its old school 'controversial' publicity

Personally I don't get the feeling that masochism is Duke's cup o' tea though.

"You and what army?" - Porn Actress, Duke Nukem 3D

[Imperius]

Originally Posted by mr. pinky demon

Duke can use XXX sex posters for target practice.

Am I the only one to find these so-called "XXX sex posters" (!) overhyped: the sexiest things in them were the texts

Anyway, I found the shock and horror D3D caused in certain people simply ridiculous back then
And how can you tell if the E3M1 women were statues? Since when?


About Duke4: if they end up letting players blow up Vegas wedding chapels (with Elvis-impersonators?) or churches [please note: this doesn't mean that I burning churches was on my TODO-list] or whatever, I'm not going to be shocked, or if they'll show us lots of polygon nudity, nothing new there, after all.

I believe I had a point but I may have forgotten it once again while commenting on the stuff I wanted to comment on.

[Altered Reality]

Originally Posted by mr. pinky demon

Yes, i know that most of you are gonna buy the game and play it like there is no tormorrow. However, how many of you are actually gonna replay the game, on a harder difficulty, right after you finished it?

I'm definitely NOT. Let me tell you what I'll do right after I finish DNF: I'll launch the level editor and start mapping!

Plus, do you expect dnf to be a controversial game as duke nukem 3d was?

No, I'm not expecting anything about DNF right now.
Well, except for it NOT to be released on cassettes or floppies.

And how can you tell if the E3M1 women were statues? Since when?

They break if you shoot them.

[wayskobfssae]

Originally Posted by Altered Reality

I'm definitely NOT. Let me tell you what I'll do right after I finish DNF: I'll launch the level editor and start mapping!

Amen, brother.

[baff]

Originally Posted by Commando Nukem

The interweb has plenty of porn, of real women at that, not pixels and polygons.

I will never understand the huge appeal of polygonal women. Im not saying Duke shouldn't have what its always had, but you don't have to go overboard with it just to be Duke. Duke 3D had maybe four actual "adult" enviroments or situations, with just a few minor things sprinkled in for effect. It was never the entire game that was specfically about sex. So lets not make it about that. :P

I never went to the other areas.

[baff]

A level editor is key to replayability.
Also Unreal style automap downloading.

And a few map making competitions in the forums to win Nvidia cards and TrackIR and Big Joysticks and Matrox triple screen adaptors and anything else that can be blagged.

That big vibrating gamers chair! Now that's a prize worth winning. And so comfortable looking.

[HunterXray]

Finish the game.

[MrBlackCat]

Originally Posted by Ras

Yeah, this was actually back when the game was released. I kept arguing that they just couldn't have tons of characters going about their lives with the limits of technology, but I never got anywhere.

I read this and so totally understand, I just HAVE to respond... "...but I never got anywhere."
Of COURSE you cound't get anywhere! I can give you many examples of "arguments that aren't" involving people like this. Duke 3D isn't the problem, it just became the target of a type of useless person(s) that is allowed to exist within our society. The TYPE of people that would be offended enough to argue about Duke 3D or 100 other things (e.g. firearms, pornography, helmet laws, etc) are the type you can never get anywhere with. Because they are not bound by rational, realism, personal responsibility, etc. They are nearly always angry, bitter, pitiful people who want to make the world a better place by dictating what is right or wrong for everyone else. American Society in its attempts at fairness and fredom of speach etc doesn't seem to have the wisdom to realize the "real" threat these type of people present.
I think tolerance and acceptance are two different things with issues like Nudity or perceived violence.
It gets complicated fast, but still comes down to individuals preferences. And notice there is nearly always an irrational jerk trying to tell you what you should be able to see or not, with total disregard for your personal preferences.

Ok... done now. I feel so much better.

Replay: I replay Duke 3D occasionally and just "play" in the environment more so. I would like to see Duke Nukem meets Grand Theft Auto really... you could have Aliens trying to take over areas of the city for instance. (tons of ideas here) Even in Duke 3D, the objectives per level don't change, so there isn't a whole lot of variation during replay. DukeMatch (or Deathmatch etc) is popular in part because of the totally random "fighting" I believe. The general competition is another major factor I would say. It would be great if DNF offers something new in this area. I like linear games just fine, but I have seen so many times there is "too" much non-linear and you get lost. I think a game needs to be one or the other. The GTA series is very well done in this respect I think. You don't get lost and it is usually a full open environment. Getting lost in a linear game sucks. I have to admit though, the times that come to mind are with add on user levels that really aren't well done.

I guess we will know... "when it's done."

MrBlackCat

[DavoX]

Please george, let us have a lot of scripting possibilities to make our own special action scenes. That's would be like having the "build" we always dreamt of.

[Duke's New Chainsaw]

OK, that link in the first post just twisted shit around to suit their own ends. I swear, these type of people suck. They're also a little late, too.

If the game doesn't have many physics puzzles (I hate them) and if it's fast-paced, then I'll be replaying it a lot. I think good pacing is key to replayability.
It also depends on the quality of the levels.

[JobivanHiob]

George said:

As for game length we should be similar to competitive games in our genre.

http://blog.shacknews.com/blogarticle.x/50481

if it will be comptitive with other games in the FPS genre, I think it will be around 10 hours. Thats not much but also not little.
My reason for posting this thread is whether DNF will have enough replaybility value to play it more than 2 times than some multiplayer and then uninstall it.
I would be a very sad man if DNF will be just another cool game but without any reason to play it again. Just look at DN3D, this game is still played today in multiplayer and in singleplayer despite of the bad graphics.
Would be nice to hear something solid on this topic.

[Minty]

nothing wrong with D3Ds graphics

As for 10 hours, I think thats a reasonable time, I'm guessing people who complain about the ength of a game are people who play it none stop from the moment they get it, then find its completed even before they can sleep.

It takes me several days/weeks/months to finish certain games because I don't have the time that I used to to play them a lot, so some games last me ages, even the "short" ones last me a week or 2 if i only get to play a few hours per week. Also I play several games at once, swapping between them, so that makes them last even longer.

[JobivanHiob]

but if DNF is done you won't swap between games, you only play DNF cause of its awesomeness