So what do Native Americans think of Prey.

[Gatinater]

I assumed that was the gist Garland. They might see it that way, but it's a personal belief which is unintentionally insulting. It suggests white people don't belong here because they weren't chosen, but evolution has shown us that there is no such thing as chosen people.

We don't choose who we are or where we come from. We share genes with our ancestors and that's all we share. Nothing from their past has anything to do with us.

It's not far from throwing crayons at each other while shouting "I was here first, be.. cau..se some guy I'm related was supposedly here before some white guy".

So do they also hang on to all of the atrocitys of their ancestors and share those by blood too? Or is it just the stuff they particularly care for. Like their ancestors being here first?

It's funny when you analyze all of these things, because white people are scrutinized yet we didn't even set the conditions to create a racial conflict.

[Gideon]

Originally Posted by StainedCheeks

its cultural, like origanal residents. some cultures thrived on stealing and takeing while others survived by giveing and execpting the earth as our owner. your original culture might have been mixed by the vast amounts of people running from plunders. history hasent changed much, it is still happening today. tousands of people have to leave thier original residency to exscape the greed of war. off topic now but one of the most uneducated thing i have ever heard someone say is that war is used to control the worlds population. this remark is scary to think about. then to get the masses of a superpower to think like that is very bad. i tell my kids there is no monsters, but at the same time i tell them that some people think like monsters. we are all native earthlings and we each have the right to think for ourselfs, thats a gift but greed has made it evil. most of the planet is starving right now, what can we do? realize our mistakes. peace..

The indians came over the bearing straights from russia, so.... If there were any 'Original residents' they're long gone.

[WVa Cherokee]

Before we start saying who came from where and stating it as a fact, it needs to be pointed out that it is all about belief. Science, like religion, is a belief system of sorts. Both seek to explain the universe and our place in it. Either you believe in your chosen religion or you don't. Either you believe in evolution or you don't. No one can say with absolute certainty that their point of view is correct. Scientists cannot prove evolution any more than Christians can prove that their theology is correct. It is all about perspective. What people do is find a "belief system" that makes the most sense to them and follows it.

When it starts to get murky is when someone talks enough about, say the evolutionary theory, they build a series of conclusions built on top of one another and it becomes so familiar to them that they somehow move from the realm of theory to fact within their own minds. The same goes for a religion like Christianity. When questioned, all Christians I have spoken to say it comes down to faith. Yet it is this "faith" (not fact) that leads many of them to create laws that affect others (such as gay marriage, etc). Again they move from belief to the realm of fact and then tell others there is no other alternative.

Science, in some areas, is the same way. Again, let's look at human origins. All we have to go on is theory, a handful of partial skeletons and a dating system that seems to have quite a bit of flaws. People take classes to learn these theories but never really examine them critically. They accept these theories as fact and regurgitate what they learned by rote and tell others what science "knows". These theories may be correct...then again they may not. And if conclusion on top of conclusion is made on an initial premise that may be wrong, then that entire line of thought (or a great deal of it).

That said, Indian migration to the Americas circa 12,000 years ago is a theory, not a fact. There is evidence of a much longer human occupation in the Americas (dates set as far back as 750,000 years have been found). It is unfortunate that any evidence collected that doesn't fit the current theory is conveniently labeled as anomalous and set aside whereas evidence that fits the theory is highlighted. One would think that contradictary evidence would cause most scientists to rethink their theories. Unfortunately being a "problem child" in the scientific community can often mean ruining your career so few take a stand.

Indeed, theories showing human origins in the Americas (not Africa) have been put forth (and naturally cast aside). How's that for the "Native American" semantic debate hehe.

Just recently have anthropologists began to include Indian oral traditions to their view of the origins of Indian people. Things are starting to be looked at in a different way.

[Gatinater]

Let me replace evolution with a synonym that won't be assumed to be related to science. I didn't say scientific evolution, but instead of evolution I'll say.. development or progress.

[Nashoba]

Originally Posted by Gatinater

Let me replace evolution with a synonym that won't be assumed to be related to science. I didn't say scientific evolution, but instead of evolution I'll say.. development or progress.

That, my friend is another set of muddy phrases. Development or progress...these are both loaded terms based on cultural values and context.

Is technology advancement? From the eyes of modern man, maybe...but it depends on where the emphasis of your values lay. If you share a humanocentric world view, then modern medicine, prolonging the life span and anything else that may help mankind to stay on top is seen as progress regardless of the consequences to the environment and the rest of life on the planet.

I'm just as guilty, I want my video games, cars, and all the other trappings of modern Human existence. But I mourn the loss of the village, of people helping people, shared responsibility, tradition etc. No it wasn't all fluffy bunnies and pancakes, with infighting, famine, disease, lack of TP and such, but the point is all gain comes with loss. The question is: Is what we have gained worth what we have lost?

That question can only be defined from a cultural standpoint, and your answer will be whether you have gained more than you have lost and "made progress" or "developed"

Just like science and religion, progress is only seen through the lense of faith or belief. You believe in evolution or not, you believe in your version of religion or not, and you believe in your view of progress or not.

That's what makes intercultural discussion so fascinating, challenging and frought with traps which can cause injured pride or feelings and lead to misunderstandings.

[garland81]

To Gatinater: *shrugs* Really depends on how you interpret it. Someone else could see it another way. I don't believe natives ever used the words 'chosen people' for they would be concerned for those who are 'unchosen' for they believe choosing between people spawns jealousy, hate, envy, desire from those unchosen. I believe the settlers belonging here or not doesn't really matter anymore, their descendants are here now in their stead and its very dishonorable to cast blame towards them for something their ancestors were apart of and not them themselves.

To Gideon: "Bering Strait" bridge. :P and some other scientists believe people spawned from North America and crossed the bridge to Asia. I mentioned both theories earlier.

To WVa/Nashoba: :P interesting posts. Though I did read of a christian paleontologist (yes its weird, religion and science combining :P) who found living tissue on a dinosaur bone. She wondered about the smell of dino bones every time she saw them and found one day organisms living in the bone marrow which is reviving back to life. She theorized that dinosaurs may have lived earlier than a million years ago which sparked major controversy from some of the hardcore christian genises believers (cant remember the real term). She was caught in the middle and I dont believe any one of them was taking her side. Other scientists scowled her idea and other christian genises believers (whom believe earth was created some 8000 years ago) ranted at her because she didn't believe the things they did.

[Gatinater]

Progress is not about technology or what anyone has.. the world doesn't see a chosen group. Somone always gets further ahead than someone else. It's not a result of faith or chosen heritage or race or mystical beliefs... it's just circumstances.

There is no way you can deny evolution. First you have nothing, then you get a job, you earn money, you get a home and so on. Each time you progress. You have evolved from having nothing to having shelter and the money to be able to trade for the things you need. You go through evolutions. Where I come from things didn't fall out of the sky, but I guess if I chose to believe it happend that way.. it did. Evolution contributes to everything. To say you don't believe in progress means you don't believe anything ever changes.

A person could choose to believe they didn't evolve from a child to an adult, but it happened. Maybe not in their delusional mind, but we know they did.

Sure from what you're suggesting I could choose to believe anything. No matter how absurd it might be. I could choose to believe jumping into a pit of spikes will bring me candy, but for some bizarre reason.. I don't believe it to be possible.

Sure a person could shove their fingers in their ears and close their eyes, but choosing to ignore and not believe what is evident is just an evasion of reallity. You can't escape evidence.. it's everywhere. I could choose to believe the tread marks on the road aren't from car tires, it's too obvious to deny, but if I really wanted I could choose not to believe it. Maybe not, that would be hard.

To put it simply.. is diminishing in numbers progress? Evolution has left evidence that shows us the next stage is extinction. Point is.. walking backwards is not progress.

I studied religion, so hear me when I say there is a difference between enlightenment and lunacy. I'm not religious because it's too fanciful for my mind. I don't choose to believe just anything. Logic tells me what to believe.

[SuicideRUN]

OK first of all WVa Cherokee, evolution is a theory based on the facts. It drives me crazy when I hear people say the jury is still out on evolution. I would love for you to explain dinosaurs, since you don't belive in evolution. Do you think dinosaurs and man lived together? Like the Flintstones? Or are you one of these religious extremist that think dinosaur bones were put here by God to test our faith? There is proof of evolution, like why snakes have remnant of legs in their skeletal structure. The fact is there in ZERO proof in God, it's all based on faith. Hopefully a few hundred years from now, humanity will look back on christianity and other religions the way we look back at those who worshipped the sun or a volcano. As primitive people who used superstition to explain what they didn't understand. To quote Stendhal, "All religions are founded on the fear of the many and the cleverness of the few."

[garland81]

and the weapons are out. Look out.

[garland81]

Btw, the facts of evolution have been in serious question in that story about the christian paleontologist i mentioned earlier, especially when its impossible to have living tissue growing in a dinosaur bone's marrow. Just because you learn facts doesn't mean the facts can't change when contradictory evidence surfaces. You can have all the facts you want but its weither you believe those facts or not and that's the point of what Nashoba said.

It's like a crime scene investigation, they gather all the evidence of what they believe may have happened and base their judgement on that. Though, you can take the same explanation and expose another situation that also may have happened that contradicts the first story. Whatever is the most likeliest becomes the general concensus.

And about Stendhal's quote, there's a difference between a religion and a way of life and unfortunately his quote does not apply correctly to certain cultures.. such as Taoism.

[Daewoodrow]

Originally Posted by Laz

Uh, way to read. Nowhere did I say that you believed white people couldn't be trusted. I did not misquote you either. You did,in fact, say what I quoted. I believe you meant I had taken what you said out of context. I'd like you to point out the part of my previous post where I said you were a bad person and you didn't trust white people. Then I'd feel you had the right to say someone had a lower intelligence than yourself.

I merely commented on what you said, which is allowed. This is a public forum, afterall.

Let me first make it clear that at no point did I suggest I believed you to be of lower intelligence than me. I said I wished for somebody of higher intelligence than you to respond, since you twisted the meaning of what I said.

And yes, I should have said "quoted out of context" rather than "misquoted". A rookie mistake on my part.

Also, I did not state that you accused me of saying I don't trust white people. Kudos on the double twist there, by the way.

Your sarcastic comment ("Yeah, that's right. Distrusting an entire race based on the actions of some people of said race is the way we can beat racism!")

implies that the members of other races who distrust white people are unjust, and also that they are prejudiced, which in turn makes them racist.

I then stated that you [took my quote out of context], as I was saying that they have good reason to distrust white people and be suspicious of white racism, despite it being wrong to assume all white people are racist. Thus you had bypassed my preconclusion, and the entire point of my post, simply to take one erroneous quote and use it to make those people the enemy here.

And nice try with the whole "freedom of speech" jibe at the end there. It only works on those obsessed with the American constitutions, and i'm British. Naturally I beleive you are perfectly within right to say whatever you like, but I also have the right to rubbish it if you use that right to turn my meanings around.

[Nashoba]

I'm about done with one-sided arguments. Please read posts thouroughly and carefully before flying off at the keybord:

Originally Posted by SuicideRUN

OK first of all WVa Cherokee, evolution is a theory based on the facts. It drives me crazy when I hear people say the jury is still out on evolution. I would love for you to explain dinosaurs, since you don't belive in evolution.

WVA used evolution as an example, he never once claimed to not believe in it. Why you assumed this, I have no idea, but even if he doesn't believe in it, that is his choice and no need to be aggressive in your post. If he doesn't believe or does...who cares...it's his choice.

Originally Posted by Gatinater

Progress is not about technology or what anyone has.. the world doesn't see a chosen group. Somone always gets further ahead than someone else. It's not a result of faith or chosen heritage or race or mystical beliefs... it's just circumstances.

Technology was used as an example of what is percieved in the modern mind as progress...it was used to illustrate a point...the point being that the perception of progress of one culture over another is subjective and depends on the lense of the culture. Secondly, where do you keep getting this concept of "chosen" no one mentioned it here and it is not a native belief in my experience.

Originally Posted by Gatinater

There is no way you can deny evolution. First you have nothing, then you get a job, you earn money, you get a home and so on. Each time you progress. You have evolved from having nothing to having shelter and the money to be able to trade for the things you need. You go through evolutions. Where I come from things didn't fall out of the sky, but I guess if I chose to believe it happend that way.. it did. Evolution contributes to everything. To say you don't believe in progress means you don't believe anything ever changes.

I don't recall denying evolution nor do I recall saying I didn't believe in progress...agin try and read a post before you type don't just react...to have an intelligent 2 way discussion, you must take the time to read, and attempt to understand the salient points a person is attempting to make and not just make rapid assuptions that had nothing to do with the original posting you are reacting to.

Originally Posted by Gatinater

Sure from what you're suggesting I could choose to believe anything. No matter how absurd it might be. I could choose to believe jumping into a pit of spikes will bring me candy, but for some bizarre reason.. I don't believe it to be possible.

You have missed the point entirely. Reread the post with an open mind instead of seeing what you think is there and is not. This comment doesn't even remotely relate to the concepts that were discussed. Try again.

Originally Posted by Gatinater

To put it simply.. is diminishing in numbers progress? Evolution has left evidence that shows us the next stage is extinction. Point is.. walking backwards is not progress.

I hope you are not refering to what I think you are refering to with the diminishing in numbers comment....if you are, I think any further discussion would be over. Please calrify that statement, I don't want to make an erroneous assumption

Originally Posted by Gatinater

I studied religion, so hear me when I say there is a difference between enlightenment and lunacy. I'm not religious because it's too fanciful for my mind. I don't choose to believe just anything. Logic tells me what to believe.

Good for you...now please try studying reading comprehension, then let's talk. (BTW...that Last comment is a tongue in cheek attempt at levity...don't take it as a serious attck...just want to clarify)

[garland81]

.... lol

[WVa Cherokee]

I never said I didn't believe in evolution. Indeed, there is much about it that I agree with. My point is that it is still a theory which may or may not be accurate. I don't deny it as a whole but I also don't proclaim with absolute certainty that it is THE answer to our origins here. Maybe it is...but I don't know. I wasn't here then and neither was anyone else.

The issue here is evidence versus fact. We find evidence and we, as imperfect humans, interpret that evidence and come to conclusions based on our worldview/culture perspectives, etc. Some conclusions I agree with, others I don't. It makes no sense to me to say what DID happen based on my own (or another's) interpretation of a few scratch marks on a fossil that is thousands or millions of years old. I can say what I THINK happened but not with absolute certainty what DID happen. You understand?

Showing an Indian perspective here, I noticed that someone was quick to put me in the "Christian" category when I am not a Christian. In fact, my tribal beliefs are more in tune with science than you might believe. Cause and effect, the scientific method, harmony/balance etc are all part of Indian philosophy in some shape or form. It is cliche, I know, but the phrase "we are all related" does have real meaning to Indian people. Everything is related. Everything must remain in balance. However these values are expressed in our cultural concepts are sometimes things get lost in translation. There is no distinction between humans and animals in the Indian view. Humans are two-legged, there are winged ones, four-legged, etc. Animals can communicate (IE speak) just the way we can to each other. Balance in the world is necessary...which Western society is beginning to understand concerning global emissions and the like. If you took an Indian person from 500 years ago and patiently explained to him/her that they evolved from "lower" (notice the quotes) life forms, I am sure it would make perfect sense to them given their worldview and being a part of nature rather than separate from it (as with Christianity).

So you see, my position on evolution isn't one of disbelief per se, but one of humbleness to say "I wasn't there so I can't be 100% sure." There is much about evolution I find compelling...but I think a lot still needs worked out. Indeed, my chosen field is paleo-archeology. And from an Indian perspective, that means listening to old stories and finding clues that science has uncovered. I have come across stories about an animal that sounds very much to me like a stegosaurus. I have heard about Indian people a few hundred years ago when they first saw elephants in circuses they recalled hearing stories about hairy versions of those elephants. And based upon those stories they were remembering being told, some even were afraid that those elephants would go on a rampage and start tearing stuff up.

Personally, I think humans have been here on earth much longer than even mainstream science would have us believe. There are too many "anomalous" dates in my view. When/how did we come about? We can only guess based on evidence...and that doesn't make it a fact. Still, we try to do our best don't we?

Here is something to make you think. Why do snakes have remnants of legs? How do we know they are remnants? How do we know they aren't beginnings of legs? Legs have to evolve as well as de-evolve don't they .

Also from my "humble" perspective where I don't presume to have it all "figured out", I recognize the distinct possibility that there is more to existence than what modern Western science has shown us so far. Just as I can't say with absolute certainty what happened scientifically in the remote past, I also can't (and won't) say what may or may not exist supernaturally. To me that is arrogance to the point of bordering on close-mindedness and stupidity. Especially considering our limited perception of the universe based on our 5 senses.

[SuicideRUN]

Originally Posted by WVa Cherokee

Here is something to make you think. Why do snakes have remnants of legs? How do we know they are remnants? How do we know they aren't beginnings of legs? Legs have to evolve as well as de-evolve don't they .

Actually we know they are remnants by the life the snake has now. The way they move would be hampered if they grew legs. Evolution is about transforming into something better not worse, and by better I mean efficient. The fossils of snakes also shows their leg spur is getting smaller, not growing. But regardly of all that. It proves they are evolving.

[garland81]

Some of the Mi'Q Macs Elders understood the portions of the eco-system (okay here we go again lol). They knew if they killed too many moose they wouldn't have enough to go around the next year. Other accounts of cree elders grew concerns of pesticides on mosquitoes noting that they are the food source for some river fish and that they were necessary.

There is alot of teachings directly related to science itself like the life cycle. First, we were all nutrients in the ground that plants harvested from the soil or worms had eaten whom birds ate.. or a particle in a leaf a deer ate and all of these parts came from all over the place gathering together into your mother's womb then you are born, live, then later die.. and all your body parts decomposes and returns to the soil and scatter all over the world again. First spawning from the earth, then returning to the earth in a never ending cycle.

Oh and there were also records of native legends that the Norsemen weren't also the first europeans that came to america. There was even a story I think came from the Bella Coola that an oriental person (it was assumed he was oriental) crossed the bering strait visited the natives then went back home.

[Gatinater]

You mean mind games.

Evidence is what it is.. evident. We all leave it everywhere we go. I can match your skin and hair fibers, your blood, your saliva, sweat and other body fluids to you. Along with fibers from your clothing.

The only way I can match it though is if I suspect you of being there. So I collect samples and compare the. If they match I wouldn't choose to believe you were there. I would know you were there.

I never mentioned anything regarding theoretical science. Everything Evolves. Earlier today it was humid, but the day EVOLVED into a cool night.

Yes what we refer to as dinasaurs did exist, but what they actually looked like and all of that good stuff is a guess, and educated case. No one has any idea what they looked like or how they behaved since no one has seen them. It's a lot of guess.

If you wish to discuss evolution from one mammal to the next instead of present day then I guess we could do that. For what reason I don't know. I never thought of it as evolving directly from another form. More like cells altering themselves to improve or create a creature for a specific function. And through this we may have evolved from a completely different form initially.

Ever hear of the expression "Life Finds a way" ?

I mean times are changing Clans are among the few and it won't be much longer before we all share the same blood.

[garland81]

Lawyers proved evidence can be fabricated in court. Evidence being there doesn't always mean it was there to begin with. Perhaps the samples you collected were planted there to distort the truth.

But when it comes to paleontology, time also can distort the truth like the story of the Bracchiosaurus.. and the fact they only found one and eventually was disproved to be a real dinosaur because it was a combination of dead brontosaurus and an allisaurus (was it an allisaurus that survives under water?)

[WVa Cherokee]

What needs to be pointed out here is that there is a difference between evidence like DNA evidence and what may or may not be scrapes on what may or may not be a stone tool. One is pretty conclusive while the other is not.

If something is hampered by legs, how do legs evolve in the first place? Does it HAVE to be done in the ocean/water first .

[garland81]

Btw.. for those who've been viewing these posts for native material lately, any of you want some links or book referrals? (Really wished RunningDeer kept his site up, it was the best place i found for doing some research)

mabey someday all people will be able to go into orbit and have a good look out there. seeing all stars other planets and such, then looking back to our tiny world. believing in a great spirit would be ur first thought. every breath u take would be from the great spirit. our planet is small compared to the explosions that are happening out there. and there is evidence of a god all around you everywhere. the great spirit is even cool enough to let us have endless thoughts on the subject. some say that in the future they will look down on beliefs, that would be another total domination society, which only has proven to bring death and murder. if you were to go into orbit, you would come back with an open mind because you would realize that your life is just a shadow passing by. Make the most of it not by thinking your so cool but rather were so cool. look at the human hand, its awwsumness, how did the universe create such a thing? Or you could look at it in this manner, the universe dose have sexualy ogans and we the humanoids are them. our brains are smart enough the smash atoms, which causes the whole thing over again, a million times over again, and to know all this and to still make missiles to hurt eachother is wrong. But I forgot, the ones in controll making the weapons dont know all this, all they know is materieal things. So it is there lives that pass by as a shadow. but thier fingerprints are poison.

[Nashoba]

Yeah garland shoot me some links...i'm always up for more info since all I know is from how I and my family and the families around us lived, and what research I have done outside of that.

[Gatinater]

Tampering is unlikely. Maybe on TV, but not in reality. There is suspects and there is witnesses and there is evidence. Detectives already know who did it or have a good of who did. if they have the correct suspects. Persuing the evidence is just proof to convince a jury.

If someone tampered with it there would be evidence of that. The way to get around that would be if someone in the legal system is responsible for it and covers it up. I know there is corruption but that doesn't change the fact that the evidence is there.

It's there and it will always be there, but we can't always control who might destroy or tamper with it in hopes to hide it.

If you have enough money you can make any evidence disappear. That's what all governments and legal systems are based on. Money.

[SuicideRUN]

Originally Posted by WVa Cherokee

If something is hampered by legs, how do legs evolve in the first place? Does it HAVE to be done in the ocean/water first .

Evolution happens out of necessity, like the sharks of today have barely evolved in millions of years because they bodies are nearly perfect for their environment and prey. At one point in it's evolution, snakes were like other reptiles, but do to environmental changes having legs wasn't as important as flexibility, so over time they evolved into a more effective hunter. Those that adapted survived, and those that didn't went extinct.

There's a type of fly in Hawaii that no longer has wings. Most of it's predators have gone extinct and it's need to fly is no longer a priority. Ever wonder why we have an appendix? Scientists believe it was an organ to help us digest raw meat. But since the discovery of fire, humans rarely eat meat raw, so over time the appendix has stop working, and oneday we won't be born with one at all.

[garland81]

http://www.runningdeerslonghouse.com/ (it's never up anymore.. but if it does its there lol)

http://www.ilhawaii.net/~stony/ (for some nice lores and quotes)
http://www.harges.net/ (some guy's site. has misc stuff)
http://www.nativeamericanlinks.com/links.html (and a bunch of links)

Two books of note:
"Return to the Teachings" by Rupert Ross (big insight on the healing circle and native heritage.. this book was my personal eye-opener)
and "I have lived here since the World began" by Arthur J. Ray (mostly canadian native history, other parts are of law and land claims, but a few chapters talk about multiple first encounters which is a very intriguing read)

That's all I got for now :P

[WVa Cherokee]

You're missing the point SuicideRUN. Everything you mention, you are automatically locked into the idea that the physical examples of evolution (tiny legs on snakes, appendix, etc) are useless and therefore fading. Where are the examples of emerging appendages, organs, etc? I know full well the theory of evolution (paleo-archeology here remember?). Evolution isn't just about losing things but also gaining them wouldn't you agree? So how do we know which is which? This is one of those situations where interpretation, whether right or wrong, is done. This is where belief emerges in science.

From what I have always been told, the Creator ("Great Spirit" if you will) is the universe. From this perspective, you can see why I (I won't go so far to say this applies to every tribe's beliefs), and others from this point of view, wouldn't balk at the idea of evolution. Again, one of the core philosophies is "we are all related". What people (scientists mainly) can't seem to agree on sometimes is HOW we evolved . So again from this perspective, it would make no difference if I went into space and experienced the "vastness"...my philosophy/theology already encompasses the universe. The earth is where we were formed, one way or another. We are created from the materials found here and Indians have long understood that we go back to the earth when we die. This is why the earth is referred to as Mother Earth and depending on your tribal perspective, there is a Father Sky or Father Sun. We recognize that this is where we come from and there are certain elements out there that take care of us. This is also why balance is also at the core of our belief system. We are taken care of by Mother Earth, we therefore treat Mother Earth with reverence, maintain balance, don't despoil her, etc.

[Laz]

Originally Posted by Daewoodrow

Let me first make it clear that at no point did I suggest I believed you to be of lower intelligence than me. I said I wished for somebody of higher intelligence than you to respond, since you twisted the meaning of what I said.

You still interpreted what I said as an attack, when it was not. Like I stated earlier, this is a public forum. We joke around with each other here(that's what I was getting at previously. I wasn't using 'freedom of speech'). It's a light-hearted enviroment here at the 3DR forums.

Your sarcastic comment implies that the members of other races who distrust white people are unjust, and also that they are prejudiced, which in turn makes them racist.

So wait, it's ok for a certain race to dislike the white race because of past events? That DOESN'T make them racist? Uh, Ok.


I'm curious, why did you take my original comment so harshly?

[SuicideRUN]

Originally Posted by WVa Cherokee

You're missing the point SuicideRUN. Everything you mention, you are automatically locked into the idea that the physical examples of evolution (tiny legs on snakes, appendix, etc) are useless and therefore fading. Where are the examples of emerging appendages, organs, etc? I know full well the theory of evolution (paleo-archeology here remember?). Evolution isn't just about losing things but also gaining them wouldn't you agree? So how do we know which is which? This is one of those situations where interpretation, whether right or wrong, is done. This is where belief emerges in science.

You want an example of a new part gained? Ok how about the hemipenis on female hyena and some female snakes. Non functional now, but maybe in a hundred years it will work.

the biggest advancement in evalution will be when the world will be free from war mongers and the true space age can blossom. a spiritual space age. corporations making tanks and oil coast to move entire city sized convoys are the biggest waste. war is old men con artist talking and young people dieing. so solve this problem suicide run and you may be our new leader.

[SuicideRUN]

Originally Posted by StainedCheeks

the biggest advancement in evalution will be when the world will be free from war mongers and the true space age can blossom. a spiritual space age. corporations making tanks and oil coast to move entire city sized convoys are the biggest waste. war is old men con artist talking and young people dieing. so solve this problem suicide run and you may be our new leader.

Only one way to stop wars on this planet. Kill all the humans. We are violent by nature, and that isn't gonna change anytime soon.

gee, hope nobody read that!

[Gatinater]

It's more complex than that. Sure we are violent by nature. I myself am a very violent, tempemental and excitable person, but I am disciplined . And if I can't fix something I'm not going to intentionally break it.

I don't think wars are fought because people are violent. More like because one side wants it one way and the another way. So when reasoning breaks down and an agreement can't be made the only option is force.

It's just the way things are. Defiance leads to violence. If communication can't fix the problem then you have to get rid of the problem. You can't expect all people in this world to behave. Many of them are rogue. So it's either detain or eliminate those people.

The world lacks strict policy, people forget it's easiest to just keep things simple. Instead they complicate matters and just tie everthing up.

I figure the best solution for the border would be to put a mile wide border of land mines along the Border. Easy. With a clear message. "STAY THE **** OUT!!" But people are like what if someone gets hurt? I say Uh.. to bad. That's why electric fences exist. If you don't wish to get zapped then stay off it. Same with land mines. If you don't wish to get your legs blown off and guts blown then don't tread through the field.

his current war could have been handled differently in a much more effecient manner. How can we not understand guerrilla warfare? It's a rich part of American history. Americans used guerrilla warfare to win wars of the past. America forfeited wars in the past, due to guerrilla warfare.

Inhumane? Brutal? ??? Wha?? Inhumanity and brutality is the essance of war. The general public should not be allowed to see war. Clearly they don't understand it.

No such thing as fair fight and no such thing as a prisoner. You're either good for information or your just useless baggage. War is an eye for an eye affair. Doesn't matter if your subdued or not, because if your a confirmed threat and have no useful information you are going in a body bag.
Don't like the rules? Don't play the game.

It's the essence of war. A soldier's job is the object and to do whatever is necessary to complete it. Do or die, accept death before defeat. We only live in the monent and we are not gonna live forever. Politics are a soldiers enemy.

War is always terrorism versus resistance. War starts because someone is always terrorizing someone else. So terror is really why we have war,

[garland81]

Humans are "sometimes" violent by nature (predatory instincts).. but of course the other three basic natures are also forgotten by the dude as well. Here's the four basic chemical emotions: anger, fear, happiness, love. Remember.. we are omnivorous, not just carnivores. Plus, we mate and reproduce and defend the young and teach the young survival skills.

And judging by the above post.. wars are started by stubborn, aggressive mentality, just like the saying "fight for what you want" or "fight for this cause" and always "fight fight fight". See a pattern?

[d3ad connection]

I don't see how this discussion is related to Prey.

[garland81]

It started off related to Prey but broke down into sub-topics.

Prey --> Natives --> Racism --> Word Context
Prey --> Heritage --> Other Heritages/Religions/Way of Lives --> Comparisons
Prey --> Teachings --> Science v Religion --> Evolution

And so on, so forth..

[Gatinater]

It's not anymore.

Sometimes you just have to fight. When your backed into a corner and they have taken away your options the only thing left to do is fight.

You can't agree on something then just break the rules, do what you want and expect peace. Defiant people don't break one rule then stop. They keep testing their bounds. If you don't stomp on the viper right away or cut it's head off before it can grow the problem becomes worse. The longer you wait the longer they have to fortify themselves.

I just figure since we are so set on killing each other we should just nuke everything and get it over with. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Technology will be our extinction.

The people who had the intellect to invent it over looked one thing. Mankind in general isn't responsible or intelligent enough to be given access or the knowledge of such things. We are smart in many ways, but when it comes to common sense we are too stupid for our own good. I won't ever share anything I know about combustion, cumbustable chemicals or substance with anyone who doesn't need to know, because of the inherent danger. Plus explosives are easy to make. So I figure if that can't figure it on their own then they don't have much of a brain to begin with and can't be trusted with the knowledge.

It's clear at the rate nations are allowing industrys to destroy the enviorment and resources that they don't care because they won't be here when it gets worse. Selfish attitude towards the world and future generations.

[Geronimo]

My, my how this thread has grown since I've been away.

Myself I'm white with a lil Metis mixed in from long ago. I spent a lot of time living in an Native township when I was young. I started this thread because I was curious what Native peoples thought of the game. Mainly because Natives so rarely get any kind of representation in various entertainment mediums on any kind of noticeable scale. The few exceptions tend to put Natives in a historical dated context, though I have seen Native people playing roles in film and television not based purely on race, as well there are a few good movies about Natives in a more modern context (Dance me Outside comes to mind).

One of the things that first impressed me about Prey was that from what I knew it was the first big video game centered around a Native character. Anywho, I'm glad this thread has been as informative as it has. On a side note someone mentioned that a lot of Native culture is being lost to time. Languages are no longer spoken and tribal beliefs are all but forgotten. Which is sad because all cultures contribute something to humanity on a whole. Some of the best stories I ever herd were Native American, stories that had been passed down through the generations for hundreds of years.

P.S. Whoever is sending out frybread add me to the list. I haven't had it in years.

[WVa Cherokee]

I would agree that humans are violent by nature but are also caring. I also think that culture has a great deal to do with destroying the environment. This is sort of a plug for pre-contact Indian people (not so much Indian people today due to assimilation) as well as tribal peoples (and even some ancient Asian peoples) around the world.

When your people's worldview is revering Mother Earth and everything you do, down to hunting, eating, travelling, etc, all contains rituals, traditions, what have you, that reflect this view. Some tribes would not even farm because to them it would be liking cutting open their mother's breast. I read recently about ancient Asians who would actually limit their steps every day to limit the impact on the earth.

To be honest, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but I do think it may be the Christian mentality that may be a large reason for lack of respect for the environment. Where various tribal peoples feel that they are a part of nature, Christians believe they are in charge of nature, must control it, etc. It is a small wonder that the Western mentality doesn't balk so easily at environmental issues. Indeed, it may have been this disregard for the environment that allowed the Western world to develop technology. If you are a tribal people trying to maintain the "status quo" (IE balance) then you don't go above and beyond to make environment-impacting technologies. It isn't that they aren't capable of it, they just don't see a good enough reason to.

This is a true scenario. I had a VERY devoted born-again Christian tell me that he personally wasn't worried about the environment because with Jesus coming any day now, why worry? Wow. I know this doesn't apply to all Christians of course but still, how many have that mentality? It is kind of scary if you ask me.

Unfortunately many Indian people in today's American society have little to no reverence for the earth. For many, their assimilation has been complete. Many speak of it of course, but most do little to nothing about it . I put myself in this category at times. It is unfortunate that I can't live in "harmony" and still survive. I MUST have a job. I MUST have a car. Still, I try to do what I can in the way of recycling, not being wasteful, etc.

[WVa Cherokee]

It is unfortunate that languages are dying out. My wife's tribe only has a handful of speakers still alive...all elderly. My tribe has upwards of around 8000-ish speakers so we are fortunate in that regard and whenever I want to be around speakers, I can. Other tribes are not so fortunate. Their languages are gone forever. Language is the cornerstone of culture too .

[Otto von Keisinger]

Originally Posted by WVa Cherokee

When your people's worldview is revering Mother Earth and everything you do, down to hunting, eating, travelling, etc, all contains rituals, traditions, what have you, that reflect this view. Some tribes would not even farm because to them it would be liking cutting open their mother's breast. I read recently about ancient Asians who would actually limit their steps every day to limit the impact on the earth.

To be honest, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but I do think it may be the Christian mentality that may be a large reason for lack of respect for the environment. Where various tribal peoples feel that they are a part of nature, Christians believe they are in charge of nature, must control it, etc. It is a small wonder that the Western mentality doesn't balk so easily at environmental issues. Indeed, it may have been this disregard for the environment that allowed the Western world to develop technology. If you are a tribal people trying to maintain the "status quo" (IE balance) then you don't go above and beyond to make environment-impacting technologies. It isn't that they aren't capable of it, they just don't see a good enough reason to.

This is a true scenario. I had a VERY devoted born-again Christian tell me that he personally wasn't worried about the environment because with Jesus coming any day now, why worry? Wow. I know this doesn't apply to all Christians of course but still, how many have that mentality? It is kind of scary if you ask me.

It's not how many, it's who. Specifically, it seems that the entirety of the Bush Administration believes that the second coming is close, despite that very prediction having been around since the Revelations was written!

Originally Posted by WVa Cherokee

Unfortunately many Indian people in today's American society have little to no reverence for the earth. For many, their assimilation has been complete. Many speak of it of course, but most do little to nothing about it . I put myself in this category at times. It is unfortunate that I can't live in "harmony" and still survive. I MUST have a job. I MUST have a car. Still, I try to do what I can in the way of recycling, not being wasteful, etc.

Technology does not have to be high-impact to be useful. Just look at solar panels or wind power, hell, even fission power, as compared to coal, oil or natural gas.