All I've got to say and hope about DNF...

[Mangopork]

Without breaking any of the sticky thread or forum rules...

All I have to say about DNF is that it better be the second coming. It better be the shot of awesome that the FPS genre badly needs.

Painkiller was fun but the weapons didn't have quite as much "oomph" as they should, and the multiplayer was broken

Serious sam is just... sheep-hearding crowds with guns.

Far cry was fun, but again, busted multiplayer

Unreal Tournament 2003 and 2004 were a disappointment in terms of a lot of the weaponry. The assault rifle blows. They nerfed the minigun.... basically only half of the infantry weapons are worth using.

Half Life 2 is a lot of fun, it raised the bar, don't get me wrong, but aside from the gravity gun and the combine ball of death, we've seen all of those weapons before.

I miss the days of Duke 3D, Blood, Shadow warrior, Turok, Duke Zero Hour, HL1, etc. etc..

Where you would tear open the game just to see what new and sadistic weapons it would contain.

New, inventive, fresh, creative ways to cause mass death. Sweet!

Prey looks like its going to be something but from what I've seen from the trailer, the weapons LOOK new but they behave the same as what we all know. Plasma gun, ooze grenades, organic machine gun.

I liked duke and the other games of the pre-y2k era because the weapons were always changing and there were plenty of suprises.

Post-counterstrike, we have none of that. The gaps between truly awesome/inventive shooters is wider than it was back then. Halo was cool, but Halo 2 nerfed its guns. Bleh.


Max Payne and Max Payne 2 were fun, but of a different style.

There have been some occasional (I do mean occasional) exceptions.

Monolith's FEAR is a blast but it still has that tactical-inaccurate bullshit, and they managed to ruin dual pistols and the shotgun (something I thought impossible).

I enjoyed games that have very powerful weapons. That weren't limp-dicked or impotent. Lots of gore.

I enjoyed firing a shotgun and knocking someone's body back 30 feet, or firing a rocket and having it splatter 3 enemies at once.

I hope DNF changes the aforementioned nerf-gun trend and doesn't fall victim to the tactical-realism or "lets use the same guns that everyone else does because it sells" trend.


That said, I'm hopeful, and I'm counting on you guys @ 3DRealms to rock my jaded veteran face off.

Your game may very well serve a more important role than you realize.

Comments/flames/discussion welcome




PS: ILU George, and I met one of your former level design employees at guildhall! SWEET!

[Cerberus_e]

yes, why can't games have a satisfying shotgun sound like in doom 3: resurrection of evil? (dual shotgun)
don't get me started on serious sam 2's dual machineguns so weak

[Mangopork]

Exactly!

If nothing else, I just want the weapons to be orgasmic.

If I'm going to be SHOOTING for 38497348973 hours in a game, the guns better be *fantastic*

[FireFly]

Unreal Tournament 2003 and 2004 were a disappointment in terms of a lot of the weaponry. The assault rifle blows. They nerfed the minigun.... basically only half of the infantry weapons are worth using.

In my experience every weapon was worth using, just not all the time.

I'm sure the weapons in DNF will look and feel gorgeous though. That's really 3DR's strong point - polish. And don't worry about the shotgun being weak; George has already confirmed it will send enemies flying back several feet.

[avatar_58]

If you are jaded, then regradless of DNF quality you will reject it. There is very little wrong with the games you've posted compared to games of old. In all rights, they have more features and more modes....so your dislike for them really makes no sense if you can stomach older titles like Wolf3d and Duke3d.

I honestly believe that no matter how amazing DNF will be people will shit on it. Why? Well because they can.

Personally as long as DNF contains the spirit of Duke and has some kickass gameplay I don't give a shit if it isn't the same as Duke3D. I mean, lets pretend it was exactly like Duke3D. Why are we buying it? We already own it! I would rather a new FPS that makes me want to play it rather than rehashing Duke3D.

Either way I don't think DNF will dissapoint *me*. I don't know about the legion of jaded gamers (LOJG) because so far they have shit on Doom 3, Far Cry and HL2....when each game is good in its own right.

[FireFly]

More features and more modes do not necessarily equate to a more enjoyable experience. As you can see in Mangopork's original post, he's concerned with the basic elements of the games, the look and feel of the weapons and the sense of freshness inherent in them.

And the 'look and feel' is about the most subjective part of the game; it's also the most basic, fundimental part. Despite the fact that Doom is now massively outdated in modern terms I think some of its weapons remain unequalled. Doom's plasma gun stands as my favourite weapon in any FPS, and I still haven't found a shotgun as satisfying to use as Doom's.

[avatar_58]

FireFly said:
And the 'look and feel' is about the most subjective part of the game; it's also the most basic, fundimental part. Despite the fact that Doom is now massively outdated in modern terms I think some of its weapons remain unequalled. Doom's plasma gun stands as my favourite weapon in any FPS, and I still haven't found a shotgun as satisfying to use as Doom's.

I'll have to agree here only because I'm still actively playing Doom. However this is THE only point I agree on...guns sound weak today. If you play ROE though, the double barrel shotgun is what developers should look at. Loud, powerful and it feels like whatever is on the end of it is toast. Thats what more FPS games need to do.

[Echo Black]

The weapons for Doom 3 sounded like shit, though. The pistol sounded like a nerf gun and the Shotgun sounded like it was firing BB rounds. Some Doom 3 fanboys come all like "LOLZZ!!! But in the futar the weppuns will have an universal silencing mechanism!!111". When Doom 3 intended to be what Doom couldn't fully achieve, and the weapons of Doom 1 sounded awesome. If they didn't want them to sound strong they could have made them weak way back at Doom 1

[avatar_58]

Echo Black said:
The weapons for Doom 3 sounded like shit, though. The pistol sounded like a nerf gun and the Shotgun sounded like it was firing BB rounds. Some Doom 3 fanboys come all like "LOLZZ!!! But in the futar the weppuns will have an universal silencing mechanism!!111". When Doom 3 intended to be what Doom couldn't fully achieve, and the weapons of Doom 1 sounded awesome. If they didn't want them to sound strong they could have made them weak way back at Doom 1

Although you have to admit the DB shotgun was good. I'll agree on the others though...the machine gun sucked royally. I much prefer the sound used in the N64 (psx) chaingun. THAT gun makes it sound like you are king of the world.

[SyntaxN]

Echo Black said:
The weapons for Doom 3 sounded like shit, though. The pistol sounded like a nerf gun and the Shotgun sounded like it was firing BB rounds. Some Doom 3 fanboys come all like "LOLZZ!!! But in the futar the weppuns will have an universal silencing mechanism!!111". When Doom 3 intended to be what Doom couldn't fully achieve, and the weapons of Doom 1 sounded awesome. If they didn't want them to sound strong they could have made them weak way back at Doom 1

I can´t completely agree with that, the shotgun sounds awesome, like the plasmagun
The rest don´t sounds very good, true, but the weapons still have more feel to them than the weapons in most other shooters and that counts for me!
Let´s hope DNF´s weapons will have enough punch, I´m not interested in realism I just want *boom* and cool recoil anims

[Nessus]

I too am sick of weak guns. By the time you get stronger guns they give you stronger enemies so your still emptying half a clip to put someone down. I play these games for fun, or at least I used to.

[chitown]

I thought Quake II introduced some good weaponry to the FPS scene.

[oak man]

i juss hope i can play it on my computer

[NutWrench]

Mangopork said:
Painkiller was fun but the weapons didn't have quite as much "oomph" as they should, and the multiplayer was broken

The Painkiller was one of the best weapons I've ever used but I think the primary fire mode should have been insanely more powerful: just chew up anything in it's path and spit out a shower of gibs.

[hell-angel]

Not a nother weapons sound thread. Didn't we have enough allready?
I think we all want weapon sounds that make a satisfying noise when you shoot them. So a rocket should go BOOM and not BAF.

No need to make a thread about it again IMO.

btw, happy birthday firefly.

[EmperorZorn]

The problem with todays FPS's is that out of 100 shooters about 90 are shooters set in World War 2, all including the same sort of weapons, the same kind of vehicles and the same background story.... this is really dull.

Call of Duty is pretty good in Singleplayer,
but if you play one setting a hundred times in different games you get tired of it.
If they use the WW2 setting, why dont they add some alternate ideas ? Like changing the story and adding mechs instead of tanks to the armies....that would be cool....then make up some new faction and weapons due to a different route of research and you're all set...

Or adding some sort of alien attack during WW2, in which mankind has to end the war and fights the invaders together....I'd so love to see a Flak 88 rip a hole into some high tech alien warmachine XD

I wish today's FPSs were more innovative

At least with FEAR now a supposedly good and creative
FPS is coming to us. I'll look into that one.

Here's all I have to say about DNF:
"kickass"

[big fat lazy]

Mangopork said:
Monolith's FEAR is a blast but it still has that tactical-inaccurate bullshit, and they managed to ruin dual pistols and the shotgun (something I thought impossible).

I rather liked the shotgun in FEAR, it's my favorite gun in that game. Too be fair, it's only cause I don't care for any of the other guns much. Except the nailgun, that gun rules.
Nevermind, the nailgun is my favorite.

[avatar_58]

EmperorZorn said:
The problem with todays FPS's is that out of 100 shooters about 90 are shooters set in World War 2, all including the same sort of weapons, the same kind of vehicles and the same background story.... this is really dull.

They are? I haven't played any World War 2 shooters...in fact I usually avoid war games all together. Not my type of thing..and I don't have a shortage of FPS games so...

[big fat lazy]

EmperorZorn said:
The problem with todays FPS's is that out of 100 shooters about 90 are shooters set in World War 2, all including the same sort of weapons, the same kind of vehicles and the same background story.... this is really dull.

That's cause all WW2 games want to be authentic, and giving them weapons or vehicles that soldiers didn't really use makes them unrealistic and weird.
As for background story, well, they're all based during the same real life historical events... it's not like they can mix it up very much.

Unless you read in a preview that it's gonna feature an alternate story line/setting/guns or something, you should assume it's gonna be realistic like every other WW2 game.

[priador]

im sure it wont be dissapointing...
is it just me.. or does anyone else still wonder why
they read these everyday??

[Cerberus_e]

EmperorZorn said:
The problem with todays FPS's is that out of 100 shooters about 90 are shooters set in World War 2, all including the same sort of weapons, the same kind of vehicles and the same background story.... this is really dull.

Call of Duty is pretty good in Singleplayer,
but if you play one setting a hundred times in different games you get tired of it.
If they use the WW2 setting, why dont they add some alternate ideas ? Like changing the story and adding mechs instead of tanks to the armies....that would be cool....then make up some new faction and weapons due to a different route of research and you're all set...

Or adding some sort of alien attack during WW2, in which mankind has to end the war and fights the invaders together....I'd so love to see a Flak 88 rip a hole into some high tech alien warmachine XD

some games NEED realistic environments/weapons, like medal of honor and call of duty.
but I think you would like return to castle wolfenstein, set in ww2

[Suppressor]

HL 2 was much fun, the had many cool things in there.I like this game...

[Mangopork]

Great responses guys. Thanks.

Perhaps I should clarify a bit more. I didn't mean to say that I am *completely* jaded, but I think moreso just dissillusioned at the current state of FPS games.

Its isn't too often that I find FPS games with guns that are totally useless, but it is rare that I find guns that truly rock. In most cases the guns are just there because they have to be... not as much passion or joy arises from firing them as in older games.

In UT2k3 and 2k4, none of the guns (except for the assault rifle) were totally useless, but they definitely didn't FEEL as powerful as they LOOKED.

Of course there are exceptions.

Fear is a lot of fun, but its weaponry could use a *bit* of tweaking.

The nailgun is badass, as are the grenades, superweapons, and melee combat.

My only gripe with the shotgun in that game is it's range. Its powerful, no doubt, but beyond 10 feet its utterly useless unless you crouch and fire or sit still.

As for George's confirmation on DNF's shotgun:

SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEET! <3

All I'm saying is I miss being able to fire up a game and know that just about every weapon is going to kick ass.

Still, you'll find me playing HL2 deathmatch from time to time and owning it

[avatar_58]

Mangopork said:
In UT2k3 and 2k4, none of the guns (except for the assault rifle) were totally useless, but they definitely didn't FEEL as powerful as they LOOKED.

Yep, I have this same feeling from 2k4. I don't even feel like I am firing anything.....the guns barely make sounds or do anything but blink. For games that basically center around blowing shit up it can break the gameplay if you don't feel powerful.

[hell-angel]

avatar_58 said:

Yep, I have this same feeling from 2k4. I don't even feel like I am firing anything.....the guns barely make sounds or do anything but blink. For games that basically center around blowing shit up it can break the gameplay if you don't feel powerful.

That is true. A rocket launcher (RPG, devastator or traditional of course ) should have a HUGE explosion, loud sound and good feel.

[Malgon]

I reckon a lot of older games had a better feel in their weaponry, not to mention more creativity. They definitely had that punchiness in their sounds and a heavy feel when you were up against a dozen enemies. Basically good old Doom and Duke days.

Guns should have a lot of time spent on tweaking them and giving them a feeling of fun which should leaved you satisfied when you blow shit up. They are the tools with which you use in the world and against enemies.

Thats all just my opinion of course.

Your opinion is shared by 9/10ths of us here.

I *really* liked the RPG in Duke3D. Nothing makes you say, "Oh shit." like watching an RPG round fly straight at you. You knew you were in for some pain.

The Devastator? Heh. Well, thats crowd control right there.

Agreeing with George, "Pipebombs > 'Nades." Nothing says lovin' like a pipebomb you be shovin'! Loved the breadcrumb trail of pipebombs. Its like, "Dammit... Turn around, boys. He's got the armor and he's probably at a camera where he can see us. He's twitchy with that detonator!"

I want guns with some serious balls. I cracked up at the term, "Nerfed". Thats genius. Your right, they've lost their uumph. I want a gun where if you point it, the thing on the other end dies. No question. If I hit it, it should hurt.

[Thriller]

avatar_58 said:
If you are jaded, then regradless of DNF quality you will reject it. There is very little wrong with the games you've posted compared to games of old.

[...]

I don't know about the legion of jaded gamers (LOJG) because so far they have shit on Doom 3, Far Cry and HL2....when each game is good in its own right.

I might be somewhat of a "jaded gamer" but I really have to disagree. To me, the games you mentioned lacked the "fun" of the older shooters. Too much effort is put in inovation. Expand gameplay, inovate graphics, push boundaries, genre-crossings... Its like the heart and soul of the games are somewhat forgotten. At first I figured I was just beeing nostalgic but the more I play both new (post 2003) and old (pre 2000) games I realize its not just all in my head.

Thats why I like Georges take on things.
It doesnt really mather - as long as the game is fun.

[Mangopork]

I <3 you guys, truly.

"I want Guns with balls." HAHA!

I think for this reason DNF will be a lot of fun.
I have yet to play an Duke Nukem game that I didn't like (granted, I haven't played all of them, but still..)

Zero Hour for the N64 got a lot of flak from critics for some reason but I thought it was a blast.
GREAT weapons.

I'm glad this opinion on weapons is shared here.

Try posting something like this on the counterstrike or tom clancy forums.... Oh Jesus, the responses are not pretty.
Even asking for a boost in the power of realistic weaponry is total blasphemy there.

I thought I was alone for a while. It's good to see old school gamers unite.

Its not just the weapon sounds of course, though that is important, its everything about them.

[avatar_58]

Thriller said:
Thats why I like Georges take on things.
It doesnt really mather - as long as the game is fun.

We'll see George's take on things once DNF is released.

[hell-angel]

Thriller said:

I might be somewhat of a "jaded gamer" but I really have to disagree. To me, the games you mentioned lacked the "fun" of the older shooters. Too much effort is put in inovation. Expand gameplay, inovate graphics, push boundaries, genre-crossings... Its like the heart and soul of the games are somewhat forgotten. At first I figured I was just beeing nostalgic but the more I play both new (post 2003) and old (pre 2000) games I realize its not just all in my head.

Thats why I like Georges take on things.
It doesnt really mather - as long as the game is fun.

it may lack some of the fun of the older shooters, but these type of games can not easily get that type of fun level because at the time (around 1995) they where released they where new and unique. Today there are a hell of a lot of games so it's nothing new anymore.

Doom 3, HL2 and Far cry are still more fun then any other game released in the last 5 years or so though. IMO that is.

[bittercold]

I <3 this thread.

I made a post a while back about weapon accuracy and effectiveness. From the responses I received, things look really good for those of us who like the viscerality that is missing from modern games.

Remember how hitting a grunt with the rocket launcher in Doom made you feel dirty? How blasting a trooper in D3D made him sink to his knees and choke on his blood? Think back to "Mein Laben!" Seriously. The best guns in any game are those that make you feel rotten for using them against an enemy. Shrinking and squishing enemies? Freezing them and shattering them? Priceless.

Sound is a big issue, but I'd rather have wimpy sounds and a big effect than monstrous sounds coming from a peashooter. Case in point, the new Starship Troopers FPS coming out soon. The demo has this shotgun that is just sickeningly fun to use. Unfortunately, the other weapons in the demo don't have quite the oomph you'd hope, but blasting bits off of the enemies makes up for it.

The problem with Sam 2 is that the weapons don't really have an effect between the enemy being at full health vs a green mist. If you could blow chunks out of them, especially large enemies, the game would feel much better.

heh, look at me ramble on. That's enough.

Hehehehe... "Mein laben!"

My loaf? ... Eh theres plenty of folks who can set me straight about that later. Lotta folks are bi or multi lingual here. Anyway... I liked hitting the troopers with a shotgun and ripping them apart. When they fell to their knees I would *always* give them the mighty boot.

Damn thats cool.

pwned.

[Micki!]

Seraph said:
When they fell to their knees I would *always* give them the mighty boot.

I love doing that if the fall on thier knees after sitting on a toilet..!

It reminds me of a perfect quote for that moment to say:
Alien "Please, i'm not finished yet..!"
Duke: "Now you are..!" *Shoots/kicks him..!*

[Phayzon]

I agree w/ most of you. Modern FPS weapons kinda suck. Doom/Duke/Quake weapons were the best. What can beat a Plasma rifle, Duke's shotgun (Or that kickass "flamethrower" in DN2), and that kickass Nailgun in Quake? They even sound awesome... Doom3 weapons were... well.. crappy, the sounds and the power. I just hope DNF has awesome weapons (especially a shotgun like Duke3D's).

Seraph said:
Hehehehe... "Mein laben!"

My loaf?

"Mein laben!" = "My life!"

[Bud Bundy]

Phayzon said:

"Mein laben!" = "My life!"

?????

"Mein L e ben!" = "My life!"

[Phayzon]

what ever.

[hell-angel]

Bud Bundy said:

?????

"Mein L e ben!" = "My life!"

The soldiers in Wolfenstein allways said "Mein Leben", that is indeed with an "e" and not an "a" Like Bud Bundy said.

Thanks.

I'm about as far from German as possible...

Couldn't speak it if my life depended on it.

[Phayzon]

Same here. I found out what they said on some Wolf3D site and used a translator. I always thought they said "I'm Leavin'!" Because I forgot how they actually sounded in Wolf3D and used Doom2 as reference.