3 Questions I Must Ask

[Pete B]

Ok, please dont kill me for asking and I know these are probably a long shot at this point in time, but I need food for thought.

1. With this new jfDuke project, will there be a new lighting system? Im not expecting UT or Doom 3 but are there any plans at all to change the lighting?

2. Are there any plans for a particle system, including fog effects?

3. Reserved - After writing the above, I forgot my last question


Thanks people!

[TerminX]

[Pete B]

Pardon?

[DissidentRage]

I can't answer 1, and certainly not 3, but for 2, there are two answers. Firstly, fog is already done (see EDuke32 and Mapster32). Secondly, particles tend to be things for modders to pull off.

[Pete B]

lol can somebody answer my 3rd question?

[Pete B]

Excuse the above post, I just remembered my 3rd question. Here goes....

3. I remember back from the days of dukeworld.com somebody made a TC with transparent water effects. Are there any plans to make better & transparent water in new Duke?

[Dr. Kill]

If it was transparent water in a tc that long ago, it was probably done with see through water sprites.

[Mr.Fibbles]

it wasnt much of a "hack" really, it was in some respects possibly harder to do but not more complex than say SW's transparent water.
it was a map thing, not a code thing.


I believe TerminX is saying that those, at this time, arent going to be answered or have been answered at some time.

[Pete B]

Yeah thats right, I remember now shadow warrior had transparent water.

Can that technique be used in the new Duke?

[Mr.Fibbles]

dont know, a thread somewhere here is titled "porting over SW stuff" or something to that extent, look there if you want to know that answer to that question.

[Viciarg]

these big smilies terminx likes to post always make me laugh

[Killd a ton]

I belive that the plan is to make sw and dn3d use the same engine so that sos will be fully posible in duke as it was in sw.

[Parkar]

Duke and sw already run on the same version of the engine in jfduke and jfsw.

[Mr.Fibbles]

but JFD does not have the same effects system (lack of title). SW uses a single sprite (Sector Effector?) that has many different tags, each one can completely change what the sprite does. that single sprite acts as all the effect sprites in Duke.
in order to add SOS in Duke you would need to add tags or sprites that coincide with what the tags and sprite in SW does.

[cage]

1. i don't think it's planned, and i think it's not a good idea with changing lighting. duke without the sector shading simply isn't the same

2. if you want particles you have to code them on your own

3. there was a eduke(dos one) version with transparent water and see-through rooms over rooms, but i think it had a hacked exe to support this effect. also an old version of eduke had example code of transparent water working on sprites

[Dr. Kill]

cage said:
duke without the sector shading simply isn't the same

I think dynamic lighting would be great. JDoom has lighting effects, and still has sector shading. I still hope that they will one day get Duke 3D (Sega Satrun) quality lighting. It was great. If we had that lighting in jfduke/eduke32, that would be the ultimate. The classic sector lighting is ok, but the Saturn version had a much more real and gritty feel cause it looked so cool. Plus, if they ever do get dynamic lighting in that doesn't mean you have to use it.

[Pete B]

I agree. In my opinion, i dont think the sector shading would have to be removed. Something like make all maps 50% darker then add dynamic lighting - all the shading would still be there plus the maps would lighten up again with the dynamic stuff. JDoom looks cool with its lighting system.

When Duke first came out it knocked Doom flat on its ass, so we gotta do the same thing with jfDuke vs JDoom.

[Dr. Kill]

Long live the king!

[Pete B]

Question 4.

What about Lens Flare? This would make existing lights look very cool.

[Dr. Kill]

they tried this effect in the first version of eduke (back in the old dos days). It was ok, and added a decent effect to Red 4 (I think it was), but was not anything that special. It was sort of bad. Even in the con code it said something like "this effect needs to be improved".

[AlgorithMan]

Dr. Kill said:
If it was transparent water in a tc that long ago, it was probably done with see through water sprites.

defenitely

Mr.Fibbles said:
it wasnt much of a "hack" really, it was in some respects possibly harder to do but not more complex than say SW's transparent water.
it was a map thing, not a code thing.

which was an improvement of the build engine in sw, in duke it wasn't really possible (why do you think you haven't seen that in the original game if it was able to do that without a hack.... hey with a hack you can even have ladders in duke =) )

Pete B said:
I agree. In my opinion, i dont think the sector shading would have to be removed. Something like make all maps 50% darker then add dynamic lighting

no... make it 100% dark + new lights, because it could look VERY odd at the borders...

Pete B said:
When Duke first came out it knocked Doom flat on its ass, so we gotta do the same thing with jfDuke vs JDoom.

yeah =)

[Mblackwell]

And where are the existing lights?

[Boinky]

Hrm.. I dont think it would be THAT noticible if you put dynamic lighting in. The lighting will probably overwrite sector lighting anyways... so imo it shouldn't cause too much of an issue on most newer cards.


EDIT: heh I left this up so long I forgot to answer the existing question.. The existing lights are where the sector shading is.. Either the tiles that are lights, windows coming in from a bright sky.. etc.. They are there just need the means of causing them to radiate :\

[AlgorithMan]

Boinky said:
Hrm.. I dont think it would be THAT noticible if you put dynamic lighting in. The lighting will probably overwrite sector lighting anyways... so imo it shouldn't cause too much of an issue on most newer cards.


EDIT: heh I left this up so long I forgot to answer the existing question.. The existing lights are where the sector shading is.. Either the tiles that are lights, windows coming in from a bright sky.. etc.. They are there just need the means of causing them to radiate :\

no, the current lights are just brightnes levels which have been set by the level authors - they aren't precalculated by setting lightsources and rendering the map - the sector effectors which are connected to lights just change the sector brightes (to a value that has also been set by the map author) periodically (disco in e1l2) or switch activated (for lightswitches)... always hated setting the lighting stuff *g*

[Mblackwell]

This doesn't work though, because a texture can be anything. You'd have to be able to manually define a texture as a "light" but then how do you decide exactly the size and the direction of the light? It would be different for every map, and what if a texture is used in a different fashion, etc etc etc. Then there's trying to decide what's constituting a "radiating" light, and how it's doing it. Too many issues. It would just be best to add in some sortof light system, and leave the sector light system, one on top of the other, and leave it up to the mappers and con coders and such to add in lights and adjust their settings.

[Boinky]

AlgorithMan said:

no, the current lights are just brightnes levels which have been set by the level authors - they aren't precalculated by setting lightsources and rendering the map - the sector effectors which are connected to lights just change the sector brightes (to a value that has also been set by the map author) periodically (disco in e1l2) or switch activated (for lightswitches)... always hated setting the lighting stuff *g*

Aye.. I know what sector shading is, I was regarding the issue as how Dynamic lighting would be implemented over Shading..

As for how the light would radiate.. just like a standard light I'd guess. If you have a light above your head. It'll shine below i t and out and grow darker the further away from the original lightsource you go.. If its a side light you could have it just shine away from the wall. Sprites my be a little more complicated than just finding a wall, finding where an open space is and shining towards that empty space. You could define the "brightness" of the light w/ a high tag and if you didnt already define what textures were to be used as lights you could do so w/ a specific lowtag for the wall and for the texture.. As for implementing this that might be a different story, but I dont see any reasoning on how this would take anything more than time and effort.

[Pete B]

I still think its a good idea. Adding dynamic lighting in the right places would make softer shadows / softer lines on the existing sector shading.

And we DEFFO gotta have lens flare.

............AND LADDERS

[Little Conqueror]

Would it be at all possible to take some of the features from, say, SW (such as "true" transparent water, floors above floors, etc.) and splice them into the Duke code? New Sector Effectors would have to be added, but still, the prospect is kind of exciting. Sprites can't do EVERYTHING.

[AlgorithMan]

Little Conqueror said:
Would it be at all possible to take some of the features from, say, SW (such as "true" transparent water, floors above floors, etc.) and splice them into the Duke code? New Sector Effectors would have to be added, but still, the prospect is kind of exciting. Sprites can't do EVERYTHING.

[Boinky]

CDuke had sector over sector support.. It was very choppy, but it was there. Improve on that and you have it.. Done in the same fashion as SW did it.. SW's SoS can only go so far though :-\.. Although it is much further than dukes

[Little Conqueror]

AlgorithMan said:

And you did that because? I haven't been able to keep up on this stuff, so instead of using a stupid fricking emoticon, you could be kind enough to tell me "this has already been done" or "this can't be done."

That pisses me off.

[TerminX]

Little Conqueror said:

And you did that because? I haven't been able to keep up on this stuff, so instead of using a stupid fricking emoticon, you could be kind enough to tell me "this has already been done" or "this can't be done."

That pisses me off.

Chill. He used the emoticon because it's something commonly asked and because if you had searched first you'd have found an answer to it, I'm sure.

[AlgorithMan]

TerminX said:

Chill. He used the emoticon because it's something commonly asked and because if you had searched first you'd have found an answer to it, I'm sure.

It has even been discussed in this very thread...