Older games and Windows Vista

[DOSGuy]

Since we're on the topic, I just went through every game in the DOS Games Compatibility Wiki and categorized games that work perfectly in Windows XP.

Of 270 games, 72 work perfectly in Windows XP, and an additional 47 games work perfectly once loaded with VDMSound (just need to right click on the game to select it), for a total of 119 games that play without any issues.

This doesn't include games where one or more older versions have issues (v1.0 of Crystal Caves and Secret Agent have system clock issues, but v1.0a works perfectly; some versions of Mah Jongg -V-G-A- will have divide errors on fast computers, but the newest version works correctly), or games where a command line argument is needed, which would add about a dozen more games to the list. It also doesn't include games that will work if EMS is enabled in the Compatibility tab, which would add about 20 more games.

Of the remaining games, most list as "playable", but have audio or timing issues. Somewhere between 150 and 200 of the games should be "good enough", but I will only certify that 72 games will play "perfectly" in Windows XP by simply clicking on the icon, plus 47 that become "perfect" once SB16 sound emulation is provided by VDMSound.

One game is tagged as perfect in Windows 2000, but I know there must be a lot more. If anyone has Win2K and wants to help out, I'd really appreciate it.

For now, all games are assumed to not run in Windows Vista without DOSBox or a virtual machine (ScummVM, TrollVm, etc.)

[DOSGuy]

Okay folks, I've only used the 64-bit version of Vista, so I'll need someone's help on this.

According to Wikipedia, the reason why Vista doesn't support 16-bit DOS and Windows software is because it doesn't have a Virtual DOS Machine to allow it to run real mode software in protected mode. NT-based versions of Windows used a VDM called NTVDM.exe, which is included in the 32-bit version of Windows Vista in the windows\system32 folder. By pinning it to start up, it will automatically run and at least some legacy DOS programs will run.

Could someone who has Vista32 please look for and try running this file, and see if it lets you run 16-bit software?

[Joe Siegler]

Only way I've found to get it working is DOSBox, and I have Vista32.

[DOSGuy]

Do you have NTVDM.exe in your system32 folder? I don't see why it would be necessary, but the Wikipedia article seems to be saying that you to manually run the program, or add it to your startup sequence, for it act as a VDM.

If NTVDM.exe isn't in your system32 folder, that article will need to be edited.

[avatar_58]

It is in there, I checked. Are you sure copying this over would solve it? Seems rather flaky, but I haven't tried so I can't say.

I would rather use DOSBox anyway. At this point in time with such speedy CPUs and Vista's compatibility in general I wouldn't feel comfortable even if the game did run. I would much rather just use dosbox and play the game at the speed it was designed...not giving it a CPU cycle more than it needs.

[DOSGuy]

The theory here is that if you start NTVDM, it will run as either a process (you may be able to find it in your Task Manager), a service, or some other kind of TSR (terminate and stay resident), so that any time you try to run real mode software (hopefully not just from the Command prompt), it will run the program in protected mode. I don't personally see why this wouldn't be automatic if it's in the system32 folder, but that's what the Wikipedia entry said.

Long story short, if there's a file called NTVDM.exe, then Vista32 may have a Virtual DOS Machine, which would allow DOS software to run on Vista32 about as well as it does in Windows XP, which is more compatible than most people realize. This would be of interest to me because a) I have a wiki that currently warns people that they can't run DOS games in Vista, and I'd love to be proven wrong; and b) there are still a handful of games that play better in Windows XP than they do in DOSBox. Commander Keen: Invasion of the Vorticons, for instance, won't display the colored status bar in DOSBox, but it plays great in Windows XP because it's just an EGA game with no SoundBlaster support. I still play some games in Windows XP, and I'm probably not alone.

[Litude]

Originally Posted by DOSGuy

here are still a handful of games that play better in Windows XP than they do in DOSBox. Commander Keen: Invasion of the Vorticons, for instance, won't display the colored status bar in DOSBox, but it plays great in Windows XP because it's just an EGA game with no SoundBlaster support.

Whilst the issue with no borders can be quite an annoyance (moreso in Crystal Caves than in Commander Keen), I'd rather hear the emulated PC Speaker sounds.

[DOSGuy]

Right, it was Crystal Caves where it told you when you could leave, and Commander Keen just warned you about the presence of Vorticons. I had it backwards in my mind when I wrote that.

I certainly agree that the emulated PC speaker is a great feature of DOSBox. Nevertheless, there are some DOS games that sound great in Windows XP. I don't always use DOSBox.

[avatar_58]

Indeed, but honestly are you going to keep XP around just because a handful of dos games hate Vista? I'd rather they at least worked in dosbox, sans borders. Also some newer PCs have terrible PC speakers that are very high pitched. Older games will never sound correct on them, so you might as well get used to DOSBox's sound emulation.

Personally if I *truly* wanted to see Crystal Caves' borders I would just play it under VirtualPC with Windows 98.

[DOSGuy]

Originally Posted by avatar_58

Indeed, but honestly are you going to keep XP around just because a handful of dos games hate Vista?

No. That's why I'd like to know if Vista's copy of NTVDM.exe will play DOS games.

This isn't a debate about DOSBox. DOSBox is awesome. If it were up to me, every member of the DOSBox crew would win the lottery and fart nothing but daisies. I'd just like to know, for reasons both trivial and practical, whether or not Vista32 will run 16-bit software.

I'd check it myself, but I haven't upgraded to Vista because 1) I don't need to, and 2) I can't afford to.

[avatar_58]

The last time I checked games refused to run fullscreen and would just end prematurely. I can try again after work and let you know, as I can't remember if this was the beta x64 build I tried or my current 32-bit install.

[DOSGuy]

I appreciate you checking for me, avatar.

[avatar_58]

*Techincally* I could try at work, but....well I don't think they'd appreciate me downloading dos games and running them on our new PCs.

[Litude]

Originally Posted by DOSGuy

I certainly agree that the emulated PC speaker is a great feature of DOSBox. Nevertheless, there are some DOS games that sound great in Windows XP. I don't always use DOSBox.

I guess I used a bit wrong words when writing my last reply (at least partially). I don't know about the majority of the modern computers, but at least my current computer does not have a PC Speaker at all so if I play DOS games that use the PC Speaker using the XP DOS thingy, I will hear not hear any sounds.
By the way, I remember there being a work-in-progress border patch for DOSBox. Has anyone tried it?

[avatar_58]

Yes, the overscan patch. It adds a border, but it's fake and it overrides the main view. It's because of an obscure resolution trick of old monitors / graphics modes that dosbox can't pull it off normally.

[Retron]

Originally Posted by DOSGuy

Long story short, if there's a file called NTVDM.exe, then Vista32 may have a Virtual DOS Machine, which would allow DOS software to run on Vista32 about as well as it does in Windows XP, which is more compatible than most people realize.

Right - first, some history. Windows NT was designed to run stuff from all sorts of operating systems, DOS, OS/2, old versions of Windows etc. To do that, it has "subsystems", which emulate the operating system. Over the years the subsystems supported have gradually dwindled: Windows 2000 supported OS/2 programs, XP dropped it and then 64-bit versions of XP and Vista have dropped NTVDM.

NTVDM emulates 16-bit DOS and if you run a DOS program or a 16-bit Windows application (such as those for Win 3.1) it's NTVDM which does the legwork. NTVDM is loaded automatically whenever it's required, you don't have to (and shouldn't) run it directly.

NTVDM evolved in XP to include basic SoundBlaster emulation but in (32-bit) Vista it's hamstrung by the fact that WDDM drivers (that support the fancy Aero effects) don't support fullscreen mode. So you can either have lovely translucent windows or full-screen DOS, but not both. (DOSBox does something completely different btw, which is why it can still do full-screen).

Anyway, long story short - 32-bit Vista will run text-mode DOS programs without a problem. It won't support any graphical things (including games) unless you downgrade your video drivers to XP ones.

64-bit Vista won't support DOS applications full stop, as it doesn't have NTVDM installed - and there's no way to install it. That causes problems with some 32-bit Windows programs that use 16-bit installers, the last I heard is that there's a special exception to handle that (which doesn't involve NTVDM).

So, to sum up - Microsoft is pretty much forcing you to use a wholescale emulator like DOSBox. Those of us who run DOS games are in such a minority now that there's little hope of having fullscreen NTVDM support under 32-bit Vista.

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by Retron

So, to sum up - Microsoft is pretty much forcing you to use a wholescale emulator like DOSBox. Those of us who run DOS games are in such a minority now that there's little hope of having fullscreen NTVDM support under 32-bit Vista.

No big deal really. With VirtualPC and DOSBox you can basically run everything anyway. All things come and go, dos is no different. I mean really, once our generation passes on we're pretty much taking DOS and every classic game with us. Isn't that a cheery thought?

[DOSGuy]

There's still a lot of great text-mode DOS games out there. It's terrific to know that at least some games will still work. Just so that I'm sure, text mode does include the 16 CGA colors, right? Games like Kroz and ZZT will play in full color? It would be a bummer if it was limited to monochrome text, but you could still play Colossal Cave Adventure, DND, and Zork.

Thank goodness for DOSBox.

[Retron]

Originally Posted by DOSGuy

There's still a lot of great text-mode DOS games out there. It's terrific to know that at least some games will still work. Just so that I'm sure, text mode does include the 16 CGA colors, right? Games like Kroz and ZZT will play in full color?

Here's your answer:



(And as for DOSBox - it's lovely but some things such as Adlib emulation aren't quite right. It's why I've got a 1999-era PC running dualboot XP/DOS set up in the other room.)

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by Retron

(And as for DOSBox - it's lovely but some things such as Adlib emulation aren't quite right. It's why I've got a 1999-era PC running dualboot XP/DOS set up in the other room.)

That 1999 PC will not run certain adlib-centric games at proper speeds, even with mo'slo. Rule of thumb - if Windows 98 isn't slow then the PC is too fast for certain games (old sierra games, games that hate ems, etc). So personally I don't feel it's worth worrying about.

Especially since most games aren't designed for adlib anyway when you think about it. The ultimate experience would be to get a true Roland MT32 emulation (still in progress) or the actual MT32 running with DOSBox.

[Retron]

Originally Posted by avatar_58

That 1999 PC will not run certain adlib-centric games at proper speeds, even with mo'slo. Rule of thumb - if Windows 98 isn't slow then the PC is too fast for certain games (old sierra games, games that hate ems, etc). So personally I don't feel it's worth worrying about.

I've not had any problems with that PC with anything I've recently run on it - and there's some pretty obscure things on there, from Wolf (not Wolf3D!) to Hocus Pocus, to Raptor, Commander Keen IV and lots more - pretty much my entire old games collection. Yes, many of them were designed for General MIDI or MT-32, but I've only ever played them with a SoundBlaster card.

For the odd thing that comes up with "Runtime error 200" (Borland compiler giving a "divide by zero" error) I've got a small TSR which seems to nullify it.

For what it's worth, in 2001 I built an Athlon 1.3GHz system (with a single ISA slot running a SoundBlaster 64), with the express intention of making it a DOS machine. Although I no longer have the machine here I know it's the same as with the P3 I mentioned - it runs XP but dual boots into DOS 7.1 and again pretty much everything seems to run smoothly on it.

Sadly this year-old Dell I've got as my main PC isn't much use for DOS - the PCI soundcard doesn't work of course and no matter how I configure the memory manager it won't give more than around 550K - which is odd, as normally I can get around 620K of free RAM!

Oh, and if you're mucking around with old PCs... use a CRT monitor, not one of those naff LCD panels. They're great at their native resolution but they look really awful running old DOS low-res stuff!

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by Retron

I've not had any problems with that PC with anything I've recently run on it - and there's some pretty obscure things on there, from Wolf (not Wolf3D!) to Hocus Pocus, to Raptor, Commander Keen IV and lots more - pretty much my entire old games collection. Yes, many of them were designed for General MIDI or MT-32, but I've only ever played them with a SoundBlaster card.

Well you forgot to mention the obscure. All those games will run on CPUs that are speedy. I'm referring to games that will not run on anything about a 286/386 or things that outright require windows to not be present (and restarting in dos mode is not funny anymore).

Oh, and if you're mucking around with old PCs... use a CRT monitor, not one of those naff LCD panels. They're great at their native resolution but they look really awful running old DOS low-res stuff!

Natively yes. Thats also one of DOBox's benefits. You can have it scale to your native resolution and it will look as clear as it did back in the old days if not better, considering many older CRTs weren't exactly the best. I remember an old CRT I used to have that jumped up and down for 20 minutes before I could use it. Fun times.

[DOSGuy]

I love my 17" CRT. I can choose any resolution I want and the picture always looks great, and the refresh rate is high enough that I never get any motion blur. I'm not switching from CRT until some other technology scales as well, or they stop making them.

[Frenkel]

Originally Posted by Retron

Here's your answer:



(And as for DOSBox - it's lovely but some things such as Adlib emulation aren't quite right. It's why I've got a 1999-era PC running dualboot XP/DOS set up in the other room.)

Off topic: According to the Detailed Release Timeline it was Kroz's 20th birthday yesterday.

Kroz is considered to be the "birth of Apogee"

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by DOSGuy

I love my 17" CRT. I can choose any resolution I want and the picture always looks great, and the refresh rate is high enough that I never get any motion blur. I'm not switching from CRT until some other technology scales as well, or they stop making them.

Eventually you'll move on. I used to be like that too. Now I use Vista, a 24" LCD and use DOSBox all the time even if the game ran fine in XP (no longer a choice with Vista anyway). Back in 2003 I wouldn't have done any of this claiming the old way was superior.

[Retron]

Originally Posted by avatar_58

Eventually you'll move on. I used to be like that too. Now I use Vista, a 24" LCD and use DOSBox all the time even if the game ran fine in XP (no longer a choice with Vista anyway). Back in 2003 I wouldn't have done any of this claiming the old way was superior.

FWIW, running old DOS stuff on an LCD panel (even if scaled to fit your native resolution, as you can do with DOSBox in a window) will always be a different experience to running it on a CRT monitor.

It's the same as watching DVDs on an LCD panel. They're too good. Watch a DVD on a CRT TV and it'll smooth out much of the MPEG-2 blockiness, or at least you have to have your nose right up to the screen to see it. And that's on a once top-of-the-range Sony Wega TV, hooked up to an RGB (aka component) source. Do the same on an LCD and all the MPEG-2 blockiness is revealed, in fact I'd say DVDs look 'orrible on an LCD panel.

And so it is with LCD monitors vs CRT. Back in the day we were all using CRTs and accepted the slightly fuzzy picture as normal. Indeed, with a low 320x200 resolution it's just as well there was a slight fuzziness! On an LCD, there's no fuzziness at all and the picture looks blockier than one would remember.

I still say to properly appreciate a DOS game you need to play it on equipment from the era. So, a proper SoundBlaster card (for that tinny Adlib sound, unless you were posh and had an AWE32 or MT-32 or similar) and a CRT monitor. And that's why I've made sure I've got a CRT monitor around, even though I do all my day-to-day work on an LCD panel. Indeed, it's quite enlightening to hook both up and see what happens when you drag a window from the LCD to the CRT monitor!

[avatar_58]

Speak for yourself there. I owned a few CRTs and they weren't fuzzy at all. I've had some shitty ones, but the good quality ones were pixel-perfect. King's Quest looks just as it did 15+ years ago for me, only much larger on my 24". Maybe you just had bad experiences?

I mean a pixel is a pixel. Graham's head is a certain amoung of pixels around, whether it's an LCD or CRT. Using your native scaled resolution gives you the same image you'd get on a decent $50-100 CRT. The fact that all DOS games are low colour helps too, because even shitty LCDs look picture perfect.

EDIT - Also for the record I'm not saying to use windowed mode, I play fullscreen with my native resolution set in the .conf file. No monitor smoothing. If I don't like widescren stretching I can enable aspect options too.

[Retron]

EDIT - Also for the record I'm not saying to use windowed mode, I play fullscreen with my native resolution set in the .conf file. No monitor smoothing. If I don't like widescren stretching I can enable aspect options too.

That only works IF you're using a resolution which is an exact multiple of 320x200 or 320x240 (depending on what mode the game uses) though. Outside of that and you get clunky scaling if you force it to fullscreen.

Now, 1280x1024 (used by the non widescreen panels) isn't an exact multiplier - therefore you have to have some black bands to preserve the aspect ratio. The exact ratio would be 1280x800 or 1280x960 respectively for the above resolutions.

[DOSGuy]

What Retron is describing is the fact that an LCD has one set of red, green and blue polymers for each pixel, so that an LCD has a physical resolution. You can change the resolution, but the monitor has to fake it by scaling the pixels across its native resolution. That's fine if it's an even multiplier, like 2x. A 640x480 image scales perfectly to 1280x960 by simply doubling the height and width of each pixel. If you get an uneven ratio, say 1.5:1, then the monitor will fake the resolution, but you'll get jaggies. Text looks particularly bad at any resolution other than the monitor's physical resolution, which is part of the reason why Microsoft introduced ClearType fonts, which use shades of gray to smooth the edges, rather than having every pixel at 100% or 0%.

CRTs, on the other hand, coated the screen with red, blue and green dots (actually, there were a lot of different kinds of CRT masks, but let's keep it simple), and the cathode ray tube lit them up by shooting electrons at them. When you change the resolution, the CRT simply refocuses the gun. A CRT can shrink or stretch the image to almost any resolution, and it will look just as good.

DOS games tend to use resolutions that don't display well on LCD screens. Common resolutions of each of the major graphics standards are: Hercules (720x348 mono), CGA (320x200 or 640x200 @ 4 colors), EGA (640x350 @ 16 colors), VGA (320x200 @ 256 colors, 640x480 @ 16 colors), 8514 (640x480 or 1024x768 @ 256 colors), and there were a number of "Super VGA" standards (800x600, 1024x768, and higher). I also have games that use some non-standard resolutions, like Mah Jongg LapTop (640x400 mono) and Scorched Earth (720x480 @ 256 colors). Actually, Scorched Earth can display 9 resolutions, the default being 360x480, which gets horizontally doubled to 720x480 in DOSBox. I'm not sure if it's supposed to do that.

The point is, at any resolution that isn't a factor of your LCD monitor's physical resolution, the image will be approximated, which makes the image less than perfect. If you're a really hardcore retro gamer, you'll want to hang onto a CRT monitor until something else that scales as well comes along.

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by Retron

That only works IF you're using a resolution which is an exact multiple of 320x200 or 320x240 (depending on what mode the game uses) though. Outside of that and you get clunky scaling if you force it to fullscreen.

Now, 1280x1024 (used by the non widescreen panels) isn't an exact multiplier - therefore you have to have some black bands to preserve the aspect ratio. The exact ratio would be 1280x800 or 1280x960 respectively for the above resolutions.

Now you are referring to aspect ratio, which you can easily fix by turning on "aspect correction". What are you trying to argue, that it's better to have the edge of a CRT versus the black border? Not much different. A 20" CRT will have the same spots on the side as a 17-19" LCD. Just ignore the sidebars.

You can still scale it and have sharp edges AND preserve the aspect ratio.

[DOSGuy]

This doesn't have very much to do with gaming on Vista any more.

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by DOSGuy

If you're a really hardcore retro gamer, you'll want to hang onto a CRT monitor until something else that scales as well comes along.

And with that I leave this thread. I don't feel like touching such a jab, since it adds little to the discussion except to start an arguement.

[DOSGuy]

That certainly wasn't my intention. I stated my thesis and supported it with a reasoned and researched technical analysis of the differences between CRT and LCD technology. That quote was my concluding statement, which reiterates my thesis. If I had made such a statement without providing supporting evidence, then it would be fair to say that it added nothing to the discussion, was flamebait, or was otherwise intended to start an argument. Quite to the contrary, it was intended to prevent an argument by explaining the position that I had stated earlier.

[Joe Siegler]

Hey, I still have an MS-DOS 6.22 machine on my desk at 3DR.

[DOSGuy]

Does it have a 5.25" floppy drive?

[Joe Siegler]

No. Not that old school.

[DOSGuy]

Mine does. And now I have a Catweasel MK 4 so that I can make bit-perfect images of practically every floppy disk format ever made. I've got to save my old DOS games before the media degrades.

[CobraA1]

Nope. Vista comes with 2 DVDs, one for 32bit, one for 64bit.

Only Ultimate comes with the 64 bit version included. All of the other versions come with only the 32 bit version, unless you specifically bought the 64 bit version in the first place. If you want to get the 64 bit version of Vista and already own the 32 bit version, you can buy a 64 bit disk for about $15 from Microsoft here:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pro...ons/64bit.mspx

You must already own one of the 32 bit versions to buy the 64 bit disks.

But yeah - DOSBox and/or dual booting is the only real way to go anymore. It may be worth it to simply find an old computer that you can have specifically for DOS and Windows 3 games.

[Phayzon]

^
Ah ok, didnt know that as Ive never seen the contents of another Vista package. I have Ultimate if you couldve guessed

[IceColdDuke]

Just use DosBox. The only game dosbox hasn't been able to play of mine is Microcosm.

Originally Posted by Phayzon

^
Ah ok, didnt know that as Ive never seen the contents of another Vista package. I have Ultimate if you couldve guessed

Off Topic:

Mines a MSDN disk I have masters of both 32bit and 64bit : ).