3DR still loaded?

[Destructor]

What with George playing with big money in Vegas and Take-Two suing the pants of 3DR I'm thinking that possibly 3D Realms are still "rolling around in cash". Maybe they did have enough money to finish DNF but they themselves decided that since there was no decent completion of the game in sight and that they already spent 12 years on DNF, that it was finally time to give up and let it go. Or, at least, George and Scott decided not to spend any more of the company's money on the black hole and let Take-Two fund it if they so desired. But, as it turned out, Take-Two decided not to fund it or continue to fund it and the reason for this is quite likey that Take-Two plainly saw it didn't need funding. Why should they invest with their own money when it's 3D Realms who should be taking the risks?

So, my theory is basically 3DR has the funds the finish DNF but they themselves choose not to. George and Scott probably figure that, especially after 12 years of not productively developing anything, that the wisest move is to concentrate soley on producing.

So, if my theory is correct, I think it's pretty safe to assume we will see a DNF game come out, but it will be outsourced to an external company like Human Head or Remedy, and 3DR will do the most productive thing which it's done in the past 12 years, which is to give direction from the sidelines. Probably not the most glamorous thing but it will most likey keep George and Scott's pockets lined with the green stuff.

George gambles with his own personal money but he doesn't gamble with 3D Realms. And like any good gambler, he knows when to count his losses and pull out.

[lordlonelobo]

What does George gambling with his personal money have to do with 3DR's fiscal situation?

[jet jaguar 2.0]

Originally Posted by Destructor

George gambles with his own personal money but he doesn't gamble with 3D Realms. And like any good gambler, he knows when to count his losses and pull out.

And it only took him 12 years to reach that conclusion. Wow, he is a good gambler.

[Yatta]

George Broussard is still loaded.

3D Realms is not.

[Destructor]

Originally Posted by lordlonelobo

What does George gambling with his personal money have to do with 3DR's fiscal situation?

Because since George is co-owner of the company his income correlates to how much money it makes. So, if he's income is at stake why would he choose to gamble his savings away?

Originally Posted by Yatta

George Broussard is still loaded.

3D Realms is not.

How do we know that? Just because they laid off the development team and the guy who handles the supply of refreshing beverages for said development team doesn't mean they are broke, does it? Think about it. Only two people from 3DR had a real hand in producing games such as Max Payne and Prey and they were Scott and George who are still here.

[Yatta]

Letting the entire DNF development team go because T2 wouldn't give them $5 million implies they have less than $5. That's pretty broke to me for a game producer, let alone developer.

[FPS SpitFire]

I still say it's a conspiracy.

[Spardanian]

I think that 3DR just playing a game with T2. T2 don't want to fund DNF, cause they think that it will have no succes. 3DR will not fund DNF now, cause they want T2 to sue 3DR what leads to "T2 made offensive moves against 3DR", so after all this whatevarica, 3DR will try to sue T2 for making offensive moves against it's own developer and to regain DNF publisher rights. Maybe it's not true...

[prophecy holder]

Originally Posted by Destructor

How do we know that? Just because they laid off the development team and the guy who handles the supply of refreshing beverages for said development team doesn't mean they are broke, does it? Think about it. Only two people from 3DR had a real hand in producing games such as Max Payne and Prey and they were Scott and George who are still here.

You don't lay off your employees for the fun of it, you lay them off because you have no way of paying them. Meaning they are either broke or just very little money.

Doesn't take a degree in business to figure that out.

[Altered Reality]

Originally Posted by prophecy holder

You don't lay off your employees for the fun of it, you lay them off because you have no way of paying them. Meaning they are either broke or just very little money.

Doesn't take a degree in business to figure that out.

Or maybe the development team was fired because of the restraining order. If you're ordered to stop developing your product, what do you need a development team for? Keeping them in force and telling them NOT to work would just be a gratuitous loss of money.

[0marTheZealot]

It's a real shitty conspiracy if you have to lay off 50+ hard working people in this economy.

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. 3DR just ran out of money, went to the sugar daddy (eg T2) and the sugar daddy said no.

[TJR]

Originally Posted by Altered Reality

Or maybe the development team was fired because of the restraining order. If you're ordered to stop developing your product, what do you need a development team for? Keeping them in force and telling them NOT to work would just be a gratuitous loss of money.

There was no lawsuit or attempt at a restraining order until after 3D Realms suspended development.

[Kristian Joensen]

Originally Posted by 0marTheZealot

It's a real shitty conspiracy if you have to lay off 50+ hard working people in this economy.

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. 3DR just ran out of money, went to the sugar daddy (eg T2) and the sugar daddy said no.

Yep no conspiracy here. But I should add that you can fire people for financial reasons without running out of money, indeed one such reason could be to prevent you from running out of money.

[Derfernet]

It's the aliens. The aliens want to kill our spirit by destroying what would be great pro-human propaganda in the form of Duke killing their slimy asses and have taken over Take two in an attempt to keep DNF from coming out. IT'S THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES SENSE!!1

edit: or money, yeah it could be that.

[lordlonelobo]

Guys, chances are that 3DR isn't broke. Chances are more likely that they cannot afford to pay their developers for the length of time it would take to finish the game.

[Altered Reality]

Originally Posted by TJR

There was no lawsuit or attempt at a restraining order until after 3D Realms suspended development.

Are you sure? I was under the impression that 3DRealms was sued immediately after George showed DNF to Take2 and failed to impress them (but the lawsuit wasn't public yet), THEN the development team was let go.
In fact, when there weren't any news about a lawsuit yet, I remember reading a blog of an ex developer who deleted the screenshots he previously posted, mentioning "lawyers" as the cause. It could have only been Take2 lawyers, since Take2 held the distribution rights of everything DNF-related.

[Kristian Joensen]

[quote]I was under the impression that 3DRealms was sued immediately after George showed DNF to Take2 and failed to impress them (but the lawsuit wasn't public yet), THEN the development team was let go.[/quote

You were under the wrong impression.

[alessnet]

Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen

You were under the wrong impression.

Do you have a "better" impression, or reliable sources ? :-)

[Kristian Joensen]

Yes, the timing of the lawsuit, it was after the layoffs

[Derfernet]

To be specific, the case was, according to ecourts, filed 05/12/2009 which is after the layoffs.

[Crosma]

Originally Posted by Altered Reality

It could have only been Take2 lawyers, since Take2 held the distribution rights of everything DNF-related.

Take2 only have publication rights to boxed copies of DNF. That's all.

[SplatterHappy]

Originally Posted by Crosma

Take2 only have publication rights to boxed copies of DNF. That's all.

Not according to Take Two's claims in their summons and complaint filed. Check the link below and pass the human being test on the right to see the .pdf of the summons and complaint.

http://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/iscr...7-2009&FName=0

[Tualmasok]

Just reading through the paperwork, it states that, in regards to the publishing rights for DNF that;

"Apogee granted Infogrames the exclusive right to publish, distribute and sell various videogames within the Duke Nukem franchise, including DNF"

I like the "various games... ...including DNF". Although it only refers to the deal that was made with Infogrames, the inclusion in the legal documents means that someone holds relevance to it with this deal.

Also, according the docs, 3DR are to make a master version of the game available to Take Two as soon as the game is completed; "“it is material to this agreement
that, without limitation, [Apogee] provide [Take-Two] with Master PC version of [DNF] as soon as it is completed."

Another amusing section refers to the "advances" paid to 3DR; "The 2007 Agreement provides that the unpaid balance of the Additional DNF Advance shall become immediately due and payable if Apogee failed to release DNF by October 22,2012."

Equally giggle worthy is this gem:"Apogee’s decision to terminate development of DNF was made without Take-Two’s approval."

Basically, I think Take Two want to get the game assets so they can finish the game and get their money - D'uh! They want 3DR to "cooperate with Take-Two in any future effort to development on DNF."

Like I have said all along, this situation was not brought about by Take-Two being greedy and wanting their game. They paid "advances" (wherever they went) as well as the initial payment to Infogrames. They have spent lots of money securing the rights to DNF, and have a paper trail to prove ownership of the right to "promote and exploit".

If this is the case, I cannot feel compassion 3DR in this debacle. Apart from insulting the gaming community with comments like "WID" and numerous restarts, turning around and simply laying off all the developers, and then GB running to off Vegas (mind you, Scott abandoned ship before the ice berg was struck). Man, they don't give a rats arse about us, why shouldn't I treat them the same?

I love Duke Nukem. He is a non-living legend. I love pretty much every game made by 3DR since the dawn of their time. Duke3D was one of the titles that got me into hard-core PC gaming and modding, and for that reason alone I have been waiting for DNF since it was announced. The only thing that's changed between now and then is the management style of 3DR, which has resulted in...

[wieder]

Originally Posted by SplatterHappy

Not according to Take Two's claims in their summons and complaint filed. Check the link below and pass the human being test on the right to see the .pdf of the summons and complaint.

http://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/iscr...7-2009&FName=0

That is an impressive read.

[Destructor]

Originally Posted by Tualmasok

Equally giggle worthy is this gem:"Apogee’s decision to terminate development of DNF was made without Take-Two’s approval."

That makes sense if 3DR had enough of their own money to finish DNF at the time.

[Kristian Joensen]

Originally Posted by wieder

That is an impressive read.

Yep indeed. Their whole entire case boils down to this: They agreed to pay back that advance if the game wasn't delivered by October 2012 therefore they should pay it all back NOW. Sorry but it is demonstratably NOT October 2012 now. If the legal system allows them to make that claim successfully then the legal system is moronic but more importantly HIGHLY unethical.

Also you CANNOT violate a conditional obligation when the condition is not met. I am talking here about the delivery of the Master. That is only an obligation if the Master is done, which it is NOT.

So this proves that Take Two from an ethical(not to be confused with a legal) point of view is TOTALLY, UTTERLY and ONLY in the WRONG.

[JobivanHiob]

here is the paper: http://rapidshare.com/files/244759325/C_PDF.pdf.html

impressive read indeed. Basically there is no real change of Take 2 winning the case! Its a complete dick move! There is no word about the last minute agreement that let 3DR close down, Take 2 dissimulates this in the paper! They claim 3DR just closed down and canceled DNF! This is not what we heard in the press release from Scott or George!

And ex-employees leaking DNF pics and videos has nothing to do with 3DR, it was their own decision to do so!

[jaimie10]

WEBSTERS ONLINE DICTIONARY
definition: failboat

A failed orginization or group of idiots. Doomed to failure and full of ineptitude, they still contiune to sail away on the sea of stupidity. In extreme circumstances, one man can be catergorized as a failboat in and of his/her self

[JobivanHiob]

Originally Posted by jaimie10

WEBSTERS ONLINE DICTIONARY
definition: failboat

A failed orginization or group of idiots. Doomed to failure and full of ineptitude, they still contiune to sail away on the sea of stupidity. In extreme circumstances, one man can be catergorized as a failboat in and of his/her self

who failed?

[crunchy superman]

It also states that the recent $2.5m advance was indeed for DNF, despite 3DR claiming it was for an unrelated game.

[jaimie10]

Originally Posted by JobivanHiob

who failed?

Take a wild guess Einstein.

[mysteryperfecta]

Originally Posted by JobivanHiob

here is the paper: http://rapidshare.com/files/244759325/C_PDF.pdf.html

impressive read indeed. Basically there is no real change of Take 2 winning the case! Its a complete dick move! There is no word about the last minute agreement that let 3DR close down, Take 2 dissimulates this in the paper!

Not exactly. When Take 2 exercised its option to develop a x360 version of DNF, 3dr wanted T2 to "FULLY fund Apogee's reaching certain milestones in the development of DNF." Take 2 balked, and instead offered to fund 50% of a concurrent PC/x360 development of DNF until the Alpha milestone was reached, and then "fund the remaining 50% upon completion of DNF." Take 2 claims that 3dr rejected the proposal.

That certainly doesn't sound like a "fire sale" offer, as 3dr asserts. The question is whether 3dr was considering this offer until, undisclosed in these legal documents, Take 2 altered the deal in such a way that it became unpalatable to 3dr.

[prophecy holder]

Originally Posted by jaimie10

WEBSTERS ONLINE DICTIONARY
definition: failboat

A failed orginization or group of idiots. Doomed to failure and full of ineptitude, they still contiune to sail away on the sea of stupidity. In extreme circumstances, one man can be catergorized as a failboat in and of his/her self

Sums up 3DR management pretty nicely. If it doesn't, we should of seen DNF years ago.

[Xefaros]

Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen

Yep indeed. Their whole entire case boils down to this: They agreed to pay back that advance if the game wasn't delivered by October 2012 therefore they should pay it all back NOW. Sorry but it is demonstratably NOT October 2012 now. If the legal system allows them to make that claim successfully then the legal system is moronic but more importantly HIGHLY unethical.

I guess they can. Due to the fact that 3dr closed down and WONT release the game by 2012.If there is no company who will release the game?+The lawsuit was send right after 3dr closed down not sure but i think thats how it happend
(dont know about the law but i think this breaks the contruct)

[Kristian Joensen]

First of all I am strictly talking ethics here, not legal matters. Second 3DR didn't shut down, they just laid off the DNF development team. Third you can't say what will happen in 2012 until 2012. It is ethically wrong to sue someone based on claiming that they WILL break a contract in the future. If I enter into a contract with you I can't ethically sue you because of some sneaking suspicion that you will break that contract down the line. "Well I just had this feeling that sometime in the future he was GONNA break the contract, so that is why I am suing". You might say "But there is no development team so it is pretty obvious that they won't make it in time for the October 2012 date" but that is not relevant, since that course of events need to actually happen before you can make a claim based on them and then you can only make a claim upon what has been agreed to, namely the $2.5 Million + agreed upon interest (7% p.a. according to Take Two). This potential profits thing is complete nonsense from an ethical point of view.

[Xefaros]

From the ethical point of view ok they could not sue 3dr.But i think that they dont realy care about ethics in t2.They believe in money.As for the law i think that even a with a doubt they can sue the other partner of the contruct.

BTW when is the court?

[peoplessi]

Maybe only in US you can sue based on "potential profits"

Yeah, I think this part is why the stuff was taken off-air:

"23. In light of Take-Two’s exclusive and worldwide rights to publish and exploit the PC and Console Versions of DNF, Apogee, including all its present and former principals, agents, officers, employees, and subcontractors, are prohibited from publishing, releasing, exploiting, selling, transferring or destroying any proprietary information and assets related to DNF, including, without limitation, the source and object code for the game."

[wieder]

Originally Posted by JobivanHiob

And ex-employees leaking DNF pics and videos has nothing to do with 3DR, it was their own decision to do so!

Umm... no... it has everything to do with 3DR. Those employees signed legally binding agreements with 3DR, and 3DR has legally binding agreements with Take 2 regarding the confidentiality of the project. It was a very dumb move on those guy's parts.

Depending on any information Take 2 left out of this that could affect it (which would be dumb as if that comes up in court then it makes them look really bad)... I have to say I disagree with you Kristian. I also think there are a lot more angles to the case than the one simple part you are presenting... and so basically like in any lawsuit, they are hitting EVERY complaint they have, and then leaving it to the court to decide which of them is actually fair. But if you don't address a complaint then you can't get compensated for it.

So basically if 3DR can't convince the judge that they DO intend to finish the game by 2012, then Take 2 would be awarded the judgement. So by raising the complaint because they 1) believe 3DR actually *does* have the money socked away and 2) believe 3DR has zero intention of trying to fulfill the 2012 obligation, they filed the complaint and now it is up to the court to be convinced that they can't make that complaint yet.

But there is also the complaint of wanting the content/source so they can make the console versions, and even if the game isn't complete I assume whatever team they do get to pick it up would simple also be expected to finish up whatever is left (not that it would actually be that simple).

So, now we just have to wait and see what more to the story there is, if we ever do get to find that out.

[DarkShadows]

Originally Posted by Destructor

George and Scott probably figure that, especially after 12 years of not productively developing anything, that the wisest move is to concentrate soley on producing.

Heh, I'm pretty sure that George would be good at producing diabetes and developers with "talent" while Scott produces a level 70 WoW character.

[Robstamack]

Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen

First of all I am strictly talking ethics here, not legal matters. Second 3DR didn't shut down, they just laid off the DNF development team. Third you can't say what will happen in 2012 until 2012. It is ethically wrong to sue someone based on claiming that they WILL break a contract in the future. If I enter into a contract with you I can't ethically sue you because of some sneaking suspicion that you will break that contract down the line. "Well I just had this feeling that sometime in the future he was GONNA break the contract, so that is why I am suing". You might say "But there is no development team so it is pretty obvious that they won't make it in time for the October 2012 date" but that is not relevant, since that course of events need to actually happen before you can make a claim based on them and then you can only make a claim upon what has been agreed to, namely the $2.5 Million + agreed upon interest (7% p.a. according to Take Two). This potential profits thing is complete nonsense from an ethical point of view.

Yes, but it is legally and fiscally responsible to initiate a lawsuit, pursuant to the Uniform Commercial Code, to collect a debt the moment you discover it will go unpaid.

In this case, the dismissal of the entire DNF team was very obvious and reasonable grounds for initiating a suit. No development team, no game. No game, no money to repay loan.