Cradle to Grave -- Your Blood experience will live again!

To whatever traces of Blood fans, Build enthusiasts and any heretical elements that may dwell within this place -- I bestow my warmest greetings.

I'm Matthew Kallis, a.k.a. 'Daedalus', a.k.a. 'The Dreaming God'. I'm well known in some Blood internet circles, notorious in others and my reputation doesn't precede me here, I would think, but that's not important. What's important is that I'm here to offer some fine news to all of you. I've acted as a voice for Blood on a great deal of occassions. Where old games are discussed and Blood isn't mentioned, I am there. Where underappreciated titles are weighed against each other and Blood is not mentioned, I am there. I've been a map editor in Blood for the past eight years or so and finally I've found my way here to spread the word on our latest monstrous creation -- Cradle to Grave, a hyper mod for the eDuke32 engine. It is designed to bring the spirit of Blood to a wider and hopefully more industrious audience.

For those of you not in the know, Blood was a Build-based horror FPS released in 1997 by Monolith Productions. In it you assumed the role of Caleb, an undead gun-slinger, betrayed by his master, who carved a path of revenge through a multitude of macabre and shadowy environments. What set the game apart was not only its dark humour, atmosphere and setting, but gameplay so exciting and visceral that, as far as I'm concerned, it has yet to be matched.

Unfortunately Blood was largely overshadowed by more, shall we say, superficial products and this particular gem was largely uncelebrated. This stigma carries to this day, where you'll only find a few hundred Blood fans (or Bloodites) in existence. Thankfully, there are those of us who continue to fight the good fight in its name and one can find a few small, but fiercely loyal Blood communities if one buries deep enough. Due to a few management changes and obvious deadlines, Blood had a lot of original content which didn't make it into the final product. This curse extended further, with the second installment being a dismal display of ineptitude and half-realised ideas.

However, I am here to talk about Cradle to Grave, not Blood. If we are successful, Cradle to Grave will bring the frantic pace and hugely enjoyable gameplay of Blood into a new medium and with our new granted freedom we'll even be able to implement some of the ideas which didn't quite make it into the original, not limited to new and never released weaponary, enemies, gameplay modes and perhaps even magic. This product exists only as our homage to Blood's spirit and, if successful, it could help bring Blood's glory to new heights.

Before we have any misunderstandings, though, allow me to stress this now and may it always be remembered, Cradle to Grave is not an attempt to replace or reproduce Blood. If you feel like playing Blood (bless you), feel free to fire up DosBox. A time may come in future where C2G comes to resemble Blood on many levels, but the goal is not a replication of Blood as it stands, but rather an extension to the vast universe - a game which can hopefully share Blood's spirit, grace and intense gameplay.

It's been quite a journey, but so far we've made some tremendous progress with our coding and such. A deal of the weaponary is functional and we're staying true to the course. We'll be keeping you informed with detailed updates as progress and life allow and, as always, any comments, criticism or contribution would be respected.

To close off I'll offer the gift of imagery pertaining to our current quest.




And that is all, dear friends. I look forward to any future correspondence between our agents and the public.

All glory to Blood!

- Matt

[miuzaki]

whoa awesome.good luck,id help but im currently doing a mod

[Dimebog]

Originally Posted by miuzaki

whoa awesome.good luck,id help but im currently doing a mod

Thank you, and good luck to you with your mod as well.

I will just add something in case the first post wasn't clear enough on some matters. We've come to understand that a 100% remake of BLOOD in the eDuke engine is not only unnecessary, but also impossible due to obvious differences in the engine and the architecture that it supports. Basically, converting BLOOD's retail gameplay content (read: original levels) is quite impossible since eDuke32 doesn't fully support mirror stacking (the RoR trick). Also, now that newer, more powerful computers are becoming more and more affordable, the whole premise of attempting to do a 'recreation' begs the question of how justified an undertaking as that would be, considering that each of those recreations will never be able to compare to the original so it's normal to ask oneself 'Why should I be playing this, when I can play BLOOD'? Even if I couldn't afford a two-year old computer which runs BLOOD perfectly in DosBox, I would never settle for some half-arsed attempt of replication that doesn't even utilize the original art correctly (witnessing the art converted to Doom and Duke3D palette makes me ill, but unfortunately that seems to be popular these days). So as I said, aiming for a full recreation that would replace the original game is downright silly, and the Transfusion project has been unofficially abandoned most for the same reasons I already stated.

However, this will not mean that we are attempting to invent something other than the glorious product that is BLOOD. I have exchanged several PMs with IceColdDuke (founder of the WinBlood project), and at a point, persuaded him to spend some of his time implementing the RoR trick to eDuke32. As soon as this happens, we will gladly convert each and every BLOOD level for use with the project. The whole process will take no more than a few days. Also, our goal is to flawlessly implement each and every of the original items and weapons, with the addition of new ones, along with optional game modes and quirks such as the infamous Beast mode. And we are doing great so far. Basically, this project is aiming to turn out to something that is quite BLOOD, but with a bit 'extra', all in due time, and to provide a base for future modders, mappers and campaign makers, who will be given choice to implement only the features that were found in the retail product, if they should find the additional content inappropriate or excessive (but we are doing our best to not make it so; we expect all additions to be fresh and exciting, and to every Bloodite's taste).

The current team counts one lead mapper, one assistant mapper, two active codders, and a HRP artist on standby (we are planning to release a HRP pack at one point as well). We are open to suggestions, queries, and offers for assistance. At this point we could use some specific contributions from an experienced coder, and in the future, we might hire another mapper, and definitely all willing HRP artists, as soon as we make our first releases.

Feel free to ask questions. More info on the entire project and new features will be found on our dedicated website which is in the works. I will notify you when it is done.

Stay fresh!

[Spiker]

Good idea but there is not much to comment on before you show us some effects of your work.

[DeeperThought]

Originally Posted by Dimebog

At this point we could use some specific contributions from an experienced coder

I could do some of that, as long as they are, as you say, "specific contributions". I can't make an open-ended commitment, but I could do a bit here and bit there.

[Dimebog]

I thought serious dev teams don't release their work until it's at a beta stage. And that will require at least one complete level. And we are currently not focusing on composing the campaigns until all mechanics are ironed out, and everything falls neatly in it's place. Until then, you can expect a few screenshots and an occasional progress update, and that is still more than some teams decide to share. Comments of general nature are welcome, we are not going to release unfinished work to be put under everyone's scrutiny until it feels well enough polished.

DNF has barely shown any effects of work and yet it still gets comments eh? That's because you partially know what to expect of it, and the other part is chosen by the authors to not be revealed, but rather to be a surprise. If you ever played BLOOD, you already know pretty much what to expect of this, and we have already shared additional ideas and concepts, and they will further be described on our website. So stay tuned.

This is not some hocus pocus project. We are a serious, dedicated team with a rich background, and we will see this project through, if that's your concern. The purpose of the original post was not to showboat our work, but rather to let us see if we can expect some support from the community, and to see if our effort is welcome. Another reason, is because certain weathered coders from this community do not offer assistance to overly secretive projects. Otherwise, we would have kept our project in secrecy until the very last day of it's production cycle.

But do not worry, there will be a demo, when we feel it is ready. Until then, we will only share our current work with people who wish to work on it and contribute.

[Dimebog]

Originally Posted by DeeperThought

I could do some of that, as long as they are, as you say, "specific contributions". I can't make an open-ended commitment, but I could do a bit here and bit there.

Thanks DT. As soon as all weapons and items are completely finished, I will pack it up and send it your way, so you can get more acquainted with the project. There is a couple of things that still baffle me and with which you are obviously experienced with, but we will try and tackle every issue before turning to you, so as to spare you from unnecessary work.

[Spiker]

Maybe I could do some mapping but I must finish my Duke Plus map first Because of holidays I hope that the progress will be much better

[Dimebog]

Thanks for the offer. We will definitely notify you when the project is ready, and send you a copy to work on.

I forgot to mention, but we will also be looking for people who know some language other than English, for the purpose of localization: we would like to translate all comments, menu items and documentation on several different languages.

[Spiker]

Originally Posted by Dimebog

I forgot to mention, but we will also be looking for people who know some language other than English, for the purpose of localization: we would like to translate all comments, menu items and documentation on several different languages.

Hahaha this means that your project is to have an international success and renown. But no problem, I can do a Polish translation I know some basics of Russian, German, Italian but it's too little to translate

[Blade Nightflame]

For the love of god, go. I can't wait to see what will come of this. Dammit, TWO things to look out for now.

[Dimebog]

Originally Posted by Spiker

Hahaha this means that your project is to have an international success and renown. But no problem, I can do a Polish translation I know some basics of Russian, German, Italian but it's too little to translate

A polyglot! How convenient.

Originally Posted by Blade Nightflame

For the love of god, go. I can't wait to see what will come of this. Dammit, TWO things to look out for now.

Glad to hear you're interested. Check back occasionally. I will be uploading a short video in a week or two.

[Loke]

You've got my watch and support. Good luck!

[Spiker]

Originally Posted by Dimebog

A polyglot! How convenient.

Not really. Of course I would like to be a polyglot but the reality is harsh. I know only BASIC BASICS of these languages so i can offer only Polish translation (I heard that Polish is difficult but not if you are a native speaker)

You will also need to find out how to do the floating sprite pivot doors.

I'd like to help you with a map or two.

[johndough]

If this project gets done, I will play it. In the mean time, I will play Blood.

[Ramen4ever]

Cool project, if you guys fix the ammo and health counter so that it is up to date with the graphics of your environments, I'll be interested in playing this. My only problem with Blood was the roughness of the visuals, it gave me plenty of headaches.

Best of luck, I'll be keeping an eye on this thread

[TerminX]

Looks pretty awesome. Feel free to ask me any CON programming questions (or questions about other EDuke32 features) you have. If IceColdDuke wants to add ROR that works worth a shit to EDuke32, I'll gladly accept the patch.

[Dimebog]

Thank you all for the support.

Originally Posted by TerminX

Looks pretty awesome. Feel free to ask me any CON programming questions (or questions about other EDuke32 features) you have. If IceColdDuke wants to add ROR that works worth a shit to EDuke32, I'll gladly accept the patch.

Much obliged!

[Tea Monster]

Originally Posted by Ramen4ever

Cool project, if you guys fix the ammo and health counter so that it is up to date with the graphics of your environments, I'll be interested in playing this. My only problem with Blood was the roughness of the visuals, it gave me plenty of headaches.

Best of luck, I'll be keeping an eye on this thread

You may find that once there is a working 'experience' in EDuke32, then a few modelers and texture artists may start contributing stuff. Hopefully, as it didn't seem to happen with Transfusion.

[Jinroh]

This looks great I don't really like Re-Makes so much, I mean they're fun, but I like when people run with a Universe in a new creative direction.

Kudos on progress so far it looks great.

Where Can I send my example works in Duke3d to see if I fit the part?

[WoodenSword]

Great idea....

But my question is....
Why using eDuke32 and not a more modern 3d engine?
A "re-make" (yes i know-not really) of an old game in an old engine?

[Blade Nightflame]

Modern engine = No, no, NO. Transfusion tried and failed horribly (in my view.)
Same engine which powered it in the first place (family-wise) = Yes yes. You can get most of it's features back and it'll still feel like the original thing to an extent. None of the fancy 3D shmuck.

[Dimebog]

Originally Posted by timothy2

Where Can I send my example works in Duke3d to see if I fit the part?

Maps? Hold on with that for now. We are not hiring new mappers just yet.

@WoodenSword: If you ask me, BLOOD's engine is still perfect, aside from the fact that it doesn't work natively in newer OS, and that it has VERY limited modability. We want it to feel as much as possible like the original, and for that, a sector-based engine is a prerequisite.

[Tea Monster]

Originally Posted by Blade Nightflame

Modern engine = No, no, NO. Transfusion tried and failed horribly (in my view.)
Same engine which powered it in the first place (family-wise) = Yes yes. You can get most of it's features back and it'll still feel like the original thing to an extent. None of the fancy 3D shmuck.

[Dimebog]

Originally Posted by Tea Monster

Yeah, he's right. 3D models and fancy effects don't belong in BLOOD.

[Blade Nightflame]

The only thing that I'd moderately find acceptable would be higher res blood, but that's about it, really. :P

[WoodenSword]

Originally Posted by Dimebog

Maps? Hold on with that for now. We are not hiring new mappers just yet.

@WoodenSword: If you ask me, BLOOD's engine is still perfect, aside from the fact that it doesn't work natively in newer OS, and that it has VERY limited modability. We want it to feel as much as possible like the original, and for that, a sector-based engine is a prerequisite.

Originally Posted by Blade Nightflame

Modern engine = No, no, NO. Transfusion tried and failed horribly (in my view.)
Same engine which powered it in the first place (family-wise) = Yes yes. You can get most of it's features back and it'll still feel like the original thing to an extent. None of the fancy 3D shmuck.

Originally Posted by Dimebog

Yeah, he's right. 3D models and fancy effects don't belong in BLOOD.

Ok fair enough...i only said that for 3 reasons:

1) I personally would LOVE a Blood - inspired game in a more modern 3d engine.But that's just me i guess.

2) I don't think that with using Build will "bring the spirit of Blood to a wider and hopefully more industrious audience". I think this can be claimed by more ambitious projects like the "BlackMesa Source". If no 3d then basically you are using the same engine with the original game.That's ok but we should wait to see that how that can surpass some already available amateur-custom made levels/mods.

3) Why don't you wait for the DNF engine instead? (...eeehh ok maybe not )


....ok i'll STFU now!

[DeeperThought]

Originally Posted by WoodenSword

2) I don't think that with using Build will "bring the spirit of Blood to a wider and hopefully more industrious audience". I think this can be claimed by more ambitious projects like the "BlackMesa Source". If no 3d then basically you are using the same engine with the original game.That's ok but we should wait to see that how that can surpass some already available amateur-custom made levels/mods.

No doubt they could get a larger audience with a newer engine, but... ""what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul?" (Matthew 16:26, and I only know that from playing C:SOTN).

One way in which it will surpass the original Blood is the mouse control. EDuke32 has good modern mouse control while in Blood it is horrible. Another advantage of using EDuke32 is that the game can be modded in any conceivable way, since it will essentially be open source.

[bruce777999]

what's so horrible about the mouse control? It's dandy for me.

[Jinroh]

It seems way too clunky and not nearly fast enough.

[WoodenSword]

Originally Posted by DeeperThought

No doubt they could get a larger audience with a newer engine, but... ""what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul?" (Matthew 16:26, and I only know that from playing C:SOTN).

LOL!!

I don't know....money?fame? Hanging out with the best supermodel babes in a white sandy beach in Bahames, smoking cuban cigars and eating caviar....?

<sigh>

[DeeperThought]

Originally Posted by bruce777999

what's so horrible about the mouse control? It's dandy for me.

It's not very smooth, and worst of all, the z axis aiming is on a fixed scale, so it doesn't correspond with the turning speed.

[Dimebog]

Originally Posted by WoodenSword

I don't know....money?fame? Hanging out with the best supermodel babes in a white sandy beach in Bahames, smoking cuban cigars and eating caviar....?

Man, if that's what we wanted, we wouldn't be doing a BLOOD project. Noone's ever gotten famous outta that particular game.

Besides, I enjoy caviar occasionally one way or another.

[IceColdDuke]

Originally Posted by TerminX

Looks pretty awesome. Feel free to ask me any CON programming questions (or questions about other EDuke32 features) you have. If IceColdDuke wants to add ROR that works worth a shit to EDuke32, I'll gladly accept the patch.

Now it kinda seems I have to do it , give me a bit. And I hope you don't mind I redid your MSVC project files, i hate makefiles .

[DeeperThought]

Originally Posted by IceColdDuke

Now it kinda seems I have to do it , give me a bit. And I hope you don't mind I redid your MSVC project files, i hate makefiles .

"When will we have ROR?" is one of the most frequently asked and longest running questions in the history of Duke 3D ports. If you added ROR, not only would you be a hero for providing a useful feature, but also for finally putting that question to rest.

[Mangopork]

This thread makes me so happy!

[IceColdDuke]

Is there any special way eduke is compiled? Im trying to make native project files for VS 2005, but my build always exits with

Fatal Signal caught: SIGSEGV. Bailing out.

EDuke32 1.4.1 svn IceColdDuke (Feb 27 2008 13:15:27)
Copyright (c) 1996, 2003 3D Realms Entertainment
Copyright (c) 2008 EDuke32 team
addsearchpath(): Added C:/projects/duke3d/bin/
Initializing Windows DirectX/GDI system interface
OS: Windows XP (Version 5.1.2600)
  - Service Pack 3
Loading OPENGL32.DLL
Loading GLU32.DLL
Initializing DirectDraw...
  - Loading DDRAW.DLL
  - Enumerating display devices
    * Primary Display Driver
  - Creating DirectDraw object
  - Checking capabilities
Detecting video modes:
  - 640x480 8-bit fullscreen
  - 720x480 8-bit fullscreen
  - 720x576 8-bit fullscreen
  - 800x600 8-bit fullscreen
  - 848x480 8-bit fullscreen
  - 960x600 8-bit fullscreen
  - 1024x768 8-bit fullscreen
  - 1152x864 8-bit fullscreen
  - 1280x720 8-bit fullscreen
  - 1280x768 8-bit fullscreen
  - 1280x800 8-bit fullscreen
  - 1280x960 8-bit fullscreen
  - 1280x1024 8-bit fullscreen
  - 1360x768 8-bit fullscreen
  - 1440x900 8-bit fullscreen
  - 1600x900 8-bit fullscreen
  - 1600x1200 8-bit fullscreen
  - 640x480 16-bit fullscreen
  - 640x480 32-bit fullscreen
  - 720x480 16-bit fullscreen
  - 720x576 16-bit fullscreen
  - 800x600 16-bit fullscreen
  - 848x480 16-bit fullscreen
  - 960x600 16-bit fullscreen
  - 1024x768 16-bit fullscreen
  - 1152x864 16-bit fullscreen
  - 1280x720 16-bit fullscreen
  - 1280x768 16-bit fullscreen
  - 1280x800 16-bit fullscreen
  - 1280x960 16-bit fullscreen
  - 1280x1024 16-bit fullscreen
  - 1360x768 16-bit fullscreen
  - 1440x900 16-bit fullscreen
  - 1600x900 16-bit fullscreen
  - 1600x1200 16-bit fullscreen
  - 720x480 32-bit fullscreen
  - 720x576 32-bit fullscreen
  - 800x600 32-bit fullscreen
  - 848x480 32-bit fullscreen
  - 960x600 32-bit fullscreen
  - 1024x768 32-bit fullscreen
  - 1152x864 32-bit fullscreen
  - 1280x720 32-bit fullscreen
  - 1280x768 32-bit fullscreen
  - 1280x800 32-bit fullscreen
  - 1280x960 32-bit fullscreen
  - 1280x1024 32-bit fullscreen
  - 1360x768 32-bit fullscreen
  - 1440x900 32-bit fullscreen
  - 1600x900 32-bit fullscreen
  - 1600x1200 32-bit fullscreen
  - 1152x864 8-bit windowed
  - 1024x768 8-bit windowed
  - 800x600 8-bit windowed
  - 640x480 8-bit windowed
  - 640x400 8-bit windowed
  - 512x384 8-bit windowed
  - 480x360 8-bit windowed
  - 400x300 8-bit windowed
  - 320x240 8-bit windowed
  - 320x200 8-bit windowed
  - 1152x864 32-bit windowed
  - 1024x768 32-bit windowed
  - 800x600 32-bit windowed
  - 640x480 32-bit windowed
  - 640x400 32-bit windowed
  - 512x384 32-bit windowed
  - 480x360 32-bit windowed
  - 400x300 32-bit windowed
  - 320x240 32-bit windowed
  - 320x200 32-bit windowed
Using config file 'duke3d.cfg'.
Scanning for GRP files...
Fatal Signal caught: SIGSEGV. Bailing out.
Uninitializing DirectDraw...
  - Releasing DirectDraw object
  - Unloading DDRAW.DLL

Any ideas terminx?

That should be posted at the Eduke32 thread if you want him to notice.