The only good thing about the duke fiasco

[tazman]

After twelve years of complete failure to deliver a single game - The hopes and dreams of many gamers shattered on waiting and waiting for the duke to arrive.
The only good thing thats come out of this is that the said leader of the project will NEVER ever be given the chance to control the release of a game again.
I really do hope take two get control of duke as thats the best chance you will ever see of the game being finished.
I really dont care if i am banned from forums for this but brussards breath taking incompetence since he has been in control of this game is astounding.
Even when he was offered money to finish a game to a set deadline he still sticks to fingers up to the helping hand.
If duke stays in brussards control - you can bet on duke - never being released.
A complete and utter failure from start to begining and single handedly destroyed the duke franchise.
You would really think he would do the decent thing and pass control to someone who KNOWS what there doing - but dont bet on it.

[jaimie10]

Originally Posted by tazman

After twelve years of complete failure to deliver a single game - The hopes and dreams of many gamers shattered on waiting and waiting for the duke to arrive.
The only good thing thats come out of this is that the said leader of the project will NEVER ever be given the chance to control the release of a game again.
I really do hope take two get control of duke as thats the best chance you will ever see of the game being finished.
I really dont care if i am banned from forums for this but brussards breath taking incompetence since he has been in control of this game is astounding.
Even when he was offered money to finish a game to a set deadline he still sticks to fingers up to the helping hand.
If duke stays in brussards control - you can bet on duke - never being released.
A complete and utter failure from start to begining and single handedly destroyed the duke franchise.
You would really think he would do the decent thing and pass control to someone who KNOWS what there doing - but dont bet on it.

Well that's exactly what I thought. The offer T2 gave him probably wasn't acceptable in his eyes or any sane business mans eyes and financially it probably would not have been smart for 3DR to agree with T2s demands, but if they had given in to T2s demands and handed over all DNF IP then it's likley that DNF would have been released a lot sooner. As it stands the game will be cancelled, without a shadow of a doubt. The last 8 years of following the DNF project, I have had mixed feelings about GB, 3DR and DNF. Ultimately I had no way of judging them. They had promised the ultimate game, the reason why they were taking so long was because this game was going to blow all others out the water. So how could I, some pleb of the street, turn round and accuse them of incompetence when the only thing they could really be accused of is being perfectionists.

Part of me felt that perhaps there were a few guys down at 3DR that really had their heads up their arses and another part of me felt that these guys were misunderstood genii and that they really knew what they were doing. It was just that they were really trying to develop this awesome game and it was just going to take a while. I even began to think that they were pulling this elaborate hoax and DNF was going to jump out at E3. Unfortunately this hasn't been the case and GB HAS to be seen as a man who is undoubtedly talented, but ulitimately selfish and egocentric. I'm sure he'd probably laugh at these accusations and him and his pals would delcare him anything but.

Well I say to him, where's the game mate? Oh that's right WID. If his priorities were pleasing 3DR/DN fans, then he would have submitted to T2s demands in the interest of getting DNF on the shelves ASAP after a farcial development cycle. However, he refused, stating T2s demands were unrealisitc, unfair, vague blha blah balh. Who f**king cares - THEY would have guaranteed that game would be on the shelves this year, as opposed to WID. I hope 3DR lose the court case, I hope DNF is shelved, I hope GB is never directly responsible for any form of project management associated with game development again. He reminds me in many ways of ex Enron CEO, Jeffery Skilling, talented, inept, arrogant, deluded. I wish in some ways GB could be held accountable for the farce that has been DNF. He alone IS responsible for the dissolution of the DNF team, people with mortgages are out of work BECAUSE OF him. Yet he pisses around twittering in this puerile manner about his garage door or his WOW games, whilst his ex-colleagues are hunting for jobs and stressing about paying the mortgage. The very least he could do is accept some responsibilty, be a little bit contrite and try and pretend he's sorry. I just wish he could show a little bit of humility and make a few sacrifices with the aim of getting DNF out the door. He won't. Just like Jeffery Skilling sitting in his prison cell still refusing to admit culpability.

[lordlonelobo]

Originally Posted by jaimie10

Well that's exactly what I thought. The offer T2 gave him probably wasn't acceptable in his eyes or any sane business mans eyes and financially it probably would not have been smart for 3DR to agree with T2s demands, but if they had given in to T2s demands and handed over all DNF IP then it's likley that DNF would have been released a lot sooner. As it stands the game will be cancelled, without a shadow of a doubt. The last 8 years of following the DNF project, I have had mixed feelings about GB, 3DR and DNF. Ultimately I had no way of judging them. They had promised the ultimate game, the reason why they were taking so long was because this game was going to blow all others out the water. So how could I, some pleb of the street, turn round and accuse them of incompetence when the only thing they could really be accused of is being perfectionists.

Part of me felt that perhaps there were a few guys down at 3DR that really had their heads up their arses and another part of me felt that these guys were misunderstood genii and that they really knew what they were doing. It was just that they were really trying to develop this awesome game and it was just going to take a while. I even began to think that they were pulling this elaborate hoax and DNF was going to jump out at E3. Unfortunately this hasn't been the case and GB HAS to be seen as a man who is undoubtedly talented, but ulitimately selfish and egocentric. I'm sure he'd probably laugh at these accusations and him and his pals would delcare him anything but.

Well I say to him, where's the game mate? Oh that's right WID. If his priorities were pleasing 3DR/DN fans, then he would have submitted to T2s demands in the interest of getting DNF on the shelves ASAP after a farcial development cycle. However, he refused, stating T2s demands were unrealisitc, unfair, vague blha blah balh. Who f**king cares - THEY would have guaranteed that game would be on the shelves this year, as opposed to WID. I hope 3DR lose the court case, I hope DNF is shelved, I hope GB is never directly responsible for any form of project management associated with game development again. He reminds me in many ways of ex Enron CEO, Jeffery Skilling, talented, inept, arrogant, deluded. I wish in some ways GB could be held accountable for the farce that has been DNF. He alone IS responsible for the dissolution of the DNF team, people with mortgages are out of work BECAUSE OF him. Yet he pisses around twittering in this puerile manner about his garage door or his WOW games, whilst his ex-colleagues are hunting for jobs and stressing about paying the mortgage. The very least he could do is accept some responsibilty, be a little bit contrite and try and pretend he's sorry. I just wish he could show a little bit of humility and make a few sacrifices with the aim of getting DNF out the door. He won't. Just like Jeffery Skilling sitting in his prison cell still refusing to admit culpability.

Y'know, I take issue with this, mainly because bosses and employers are not (and should not be) held accountable to their employees. Yeah, it sucks about what happened, but, any employee would have to realize that 12 years without any self-made profit is probably not the safest bet in the world. They weighed the risk, accepted it, and continued to work.

Businesses are liable to their stakeholders, not their employees, and this is the way it should be. Just because you're all pissy about not seeing DNF does not mean that the project leader is worthy of going to jail. The employees were being paid real money for real work, and there are no shareholders. No fraud and no crime was committed.

So unravel your panties, grow a pair and move on. I don't conclusively know about DNF, neither do you, but regardless, anything that can be said, has been, and you should just leave it.

[SuperBill]

12 years....

Lots of bargain bin titles....

Prey

What do they do in the office all day long?

Duke is now a has-been, unfortunately.

[jaimie10]

Originally Posted by lordlonelobo

Y'know, I take issue with this, mainly because bosses and employers are not (and should not be) held accountable to their employees. Yeah, it sucks about what happened, but, any employee would have to realize that 12 years without any self-made profit is probably not the safest bet in the world. They weighed the risk, accepted it, and continued to work.

Businesses are liable to their stakeholders, not their employees, and this is the way it should be. Just because you're all pissy about not seeing DNF does not mean that the project leader is worthy of going to jail. The employees were being paid real money for real work, and there are no shareholders. No fraud and no crime was committed.

So unravel your panties, grow a pair and move on. I don't conclusively know about DNF, neither do you, but regardless, anything that can be said, has been, and you should just leave it.

Yeah I see your point. And listen, Im not a gamer, I play a lot of sports, I have a family, I have very little time to play games. I was interested in the development of DNf 3/4 years ago and have recently become interested as it seemed that DNF might have been close to completion. I'm not pissy that I won't get to play DNF, I'm pissy at the behaviour of GB and 3DR. The fact that I will never get to play DNF, doesn't bother me in the slightest, but it does bother me that true, loyal fans that have stuck by 3DR these past 12 years won't. Incompetence, arrogance and ineptitude bother me immensely. The way GB has responded to the media with childish comments such as WID & STFU - all that rubbish was forgiven because DNF, this incredible game, was due to be released. So like any 'genius' he was given a certain amount of latitude, he can act like a prima donna, he's developing DNF..

And yeah the DNF project team must have been aware that GBs primary goal was not releasing DNF ASAP and that must have alerted some of them to the fact that funding may have run out at some stage. But how were they to know when? Anyway, my main point regarding the responsibility of the DNF's team employment status was that GB had a direct influence over it. If he had concentrated on releasing a game instead of piss-farting about like he has been then not only would we be playing DNF, but the entire DNF team would still be employed, working on the next DN.

I can't believe I'm even posting this, I care less about the game and more about GBs reprehensible behaviour and attitude. OK I'm being slightly facietious here, but seriously this guy has some kind of obligation to the hard core 3DR/DNF fans to keep them informed and updated. He needs to remember who's paying his mortgage.

[Lt.Havoc]

So Max Payne 1 and 2, Duke Nukem: Time to Kill, Duke Nukme 64, Duke Nukem: Zero Hour and Duke Nukem Manhatten Project etc. are all bargain bin titels for you? Oh and for the record, there is still Duke Nukem Trilogy, so while we wont see DNF, we will still be able to play Duke games in the future. The franchise is far from dead.

Also, it wais said more then one time that Take 2 is not interested in finishing the game whatshowever and even if they are interested, dont expect that the game will be finished anytime soon because you cant simply give another team the game without schooling them about the tech first and whatnot. So no, thats not going to happen.

Its also interesting that people say it would have been the right thing to sell the Duke IP for only 30 Million Dollars wehn its clearly worth much more and do not forget what that would have meant then: after DNF would have been done, Take 2 can do whatever they want with the IP and I doubt that would have been a good thing.

I mean, you guys complain about the 3rd party Duke games, now imaging that this wouldnt be the expection of some assorted 3rd party Duke games that are actually good, we would see that Take 2 would milk that frachise dry and we would get Halo style games or even worse would give the franchise to game makers in Russia or whatnot that have no idea how to make a decent game even if thier life depends on it (like Strategy First done it with Jagged Alliance).

I dont belive that GB did what he did totally egotistcal and without a thought and I can understand his actions very well. If I go to a company to show them a product and we already agreed on the terms of the contract, I would expect them not to suddenly change it and offering me a sum of cash that is clearly under the actual worth of the product.

Take 2 is a publisher and they wanted much more then that, despite the fact that DNF would have been sold very well, but for some reason where not willing to give 3DR the money to finish it and instead thought they could simply buy the whole franchise.

Another point I want to bring up here is: we do not know why 3DR suddenly had finacial problems, wehn they did rather well in the past. Seeing how a lot of Banks went downhill in this recession, I can imiging that this might have effected 3DR as well. Maybe they had money on a Bank that went downhill, maybe they had a credit at a Bank that went under, we do not know. But there are many ways how 3DR could get into a situation like this and that without any managment errors.

At this point, we even dont know what is happening behind the scenes as well. Maybe the whole thing will be setteld out of court, maybe not. Thing is, that GB cant and wont say anything because they are in the middle of a lawsuit and everything he or Scott might say can effect the lawsuit, so they have to be silent about this. Same goes for the ex-emploeeys.

BTW: a lot of the ex-3DR emploeeys said that they would work for them again if they where given a chance and that speaks for itself.

So yeah, shot happens and sometimes you cant do anything about it, thats life. Everyone of us has at least one epic-fail in our lifes. I do belive that GB did leanr his lesson from it, speically considering that he gets lots of hatemail and whatnot.

I also gotta wonder that you guys compare 3DR with Enron wehn you actually didnt gave 3DR any money, expect back then wehn you bought one of the Duke Games, but back then you got the product, you did not payed 3DR for DNF. All you guys did where wating and speinding time here and whatnot and thats all your own danm faults if you belived everything and wasted your time here and actually waited for the game for 12 years.

You decided to do it, no one forced you, no one pressured you and yet you guys are here demanting things like 3DR actually owes you something.

Thing is, THEY DONT OWE YOU ANYTHING AT ALL!

So, suck it up and live on, there are more important things in life then a game called Duke Nukem Forever.

[Crosma]

Originally Posted by Lt.Havoc

we do not know why 3DR suddenly had finacial problems

Erm... if you don't know this by now then you never will.

Here's the trick: it wasn't sudden. 3D Realms spent their money. They had lots of time to do it.

[SplatterHappy]

Originally Posted by Crosma

Erm... if you don't know this by now then you never will.

Here's the trick: it wasn't sudden. 3D Realms spent their money. They had lots of time to do it.

Point, set, and match to Crosma.

No offence to Lt.Havoc intended.. he has many valid points in his post. Quite honestly, most of us should STFU and wait for more information on the court case rather than spending so much time in pointless arguments about what 3DR and GB should or shouldn't have done as the point is moot.

[bubbahotep]

To add one more useless comment to a useless arguement. we don't know that the 3dr employees did or didn't know about the financial problems.
A rat will leave a sinking ship and GB might have felt that his ppl would bail if they knew and so kept quiet in the hopes of finishing the game.
They may also have known that 3dr was in trouble and were trying to finish it to save their jobs, and or that 3dr was seeking different sources to obtain monies in the hope of completing the project.
Possibly they wouldn't have bailed in either case but it's a moot point now.
Though blame needs to placed somewhere it should be placed at the proper time and the proper ppl when all the facts are known.
Also this changes nothing in regards to whether the game ever comes out, so beating a dead horse helps nothing.

[Drazula]

Originally Posted by lordlonelobo

Y'know, I take issue with this, mainly because bosses and employers are not (and should not be) held accountable to their employees. Yeah, it sucks about what happened, but, any employee would have to realize that 12 years without any self-made profit is probably not the safest bet in the world. They weighed the risk, accepted it, and continued to work.

Businesses are liable to their stakeholders, not their employees, and this is the way it should be. Just because you're all pissy about not seeing DNF does not mean that the project leader is worthy of going to jail. The employees were being paid real money for real work, and there are no shareholders. No fraud and no crime was committed.

So unravel your panties, grow a pair and move on. I don't conclusively know about DNF, neither do you, but regardless, anything that can be said, has been, and you should just leave it.

You are missing a big point. In many cases, and in 3DR in particular, part of the employees compensation was sharing the profits of the game. I can still remember some of the ads for employment from 3DR. By promising profits of the game, they can low-ball the annual salary with a "promise". In that respect, the employer IS accountable to the employees.

In most publicly held companies, employees are encouraged to invest in their company. By percentage of their savings, most employees have more invested than their management. This is what happened with Enron. Most employees lost their life savings.

Just because GB didn't commit a crime doesn't mean he isn't a fraud. Sadly, the one he lied to most, and continues to lie to, is himself. He really needs to have his a$$ kicked.

[Lt.Havoc]

I somehow doubt that the 3DR emploeeys lost thier life savings or anything like that. Also, they get profits when the game is realeased wihch did not happen and I bet thier work contract said that in case of bankruptcy they cant or wont give out profits. So you are again assuming things we have no knowledge about and try to proof your moral superiority over somone else.

Also, I find it interesting that saying nothing means the same as lying to you. I already pointed out that GB cant and wont say anything to this right now, because of the lawsuit. So far we didnt heard anything from GB that can be even implied as lying, because his Twitter posts have nothing to do with DNF whatsoever.

[wieder]

Originally Posted by Drazula

You are missing a big point. In many cases, and in 3DR in particular, part of the employees compensation was sharing the profits of the game. I can still remember some of the ads for employment from 3DR. By promising profits of the game, they can low-ball the annual salary with a "promise". In that respect, the employer IS accountable to the employees.

While what you say was fairly true early on (in terms of royalties being the big selling point for compensation over salary compared to what could be earned elsewhere)... I'm pretty sure there aren't any people who left 3DR feeling cheated or that 3DR owes them anything. George and Scott were pretty good about taking care of the people there, more than you can expect from most companies.

Frustrated over the path the project was taking for sure, and I imagine the last minute "We're letting everyone go" with no warning also upset some people, but beyond that it was pretty fair. And there was some profit sharing from things like Max Payne that was ok.

---------- Post added at 07:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:10 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Lt.Havoc

I already pointed out that GB cant and wont say anything to this right now, because of the lawsuit. So far we didnt heard anything from GB that can be even implied as lying, because his Twitter posts have nothing to do with DNF whatsoever.

Except... uh... they *did* say something. And it was a pretty strong statement and included information that was *not* public knowledge and is potentially harmful to Take 2 as a business in their negotiations with other companies if true. So I don't think the "he can't say anything" line holds. They shouldn't have even issued the other statement if they were going to honestly hold to that, at least not in the entirety they did.

And I think the lying part Drazula is talking about is the repeated promises through the years of "It will be out before X" and such.

[MotzaballZ]

I posted and wasn't logged in. I'm new... But let me sum it up:
He's not an egomaniac, he's just trying to make the best game possible. Hope it gets to Take 2, otherwise it's gonna take FOREVER.

Relax, it's that simple, don't make too much of it.

[jaimie10]

Originally Posted by MotzaballZ

He's not an egomaniac, he's just trying to make the best game possible. :

Correct. But who is he trying to make the 'best game possible' for, him or us?

[wh4tever]

Quotes by Lt.Havoc in the same post

and I bet thier work contract said

So you are again assuming things

[gungriffon geona]

Originally Posted by jaimie10

Correct. But who is he trying to make the 'best game possible' for, him or us?

Any creator with sanity wants it for both equally, but with different perspectives. What he himself wanted? I can't honestly be sure, I'm not him.
Me now, if I were working on a project, it would be equally for creating a masterpiece in my eyes that I'm proud of. At the same time, I would hope that it's truly enjoyable for everyone that gets the chance to play it.
Anyone at the head of a project like that is wanting that in one way or another. (Unless they sold their soul to the almighty dollar. It seems apparent George was totally against that.) It's a bit childish, sure. Maybe even selfish to an extent. But in the end, that's what drives real creativity.

EDIT: I find it interesting that Tazman never posted again.

[Lt.Havoc]

Originally Posted by wieder

Except... uh... they *did* say something. And it was a pretty strong statement and included information that was *not* public knowledge and is potentially harmful to Take 2 as a business in their negotiations with other companies if true. So I don't think the "he can't say anything" line holds. They shouldn't have even issued the other statement if they were going to honestly hold to that, at least not in the entirety they did.

And I think the lying part Drazula is talking about is the repeated promises through the years of "It will be out before X" and such.

Sure they did something, because we where up in arms and where demanting a statment from them and Scott deliverd it, but even before that we didnt get anything to hear from Gorege at all. He never said anything at all and I think that the press statment was also put together by some press guy for Scott so they could present something to all the people asking.

Thats how it goes, you get accused by somone in publich via press and then you make a counter statment. Also, rember that the truth is something in between most of the time and who is actually right has now to be found out by the court, if that lawsuit is still going on by now.

Also, I could see that as crazy as we are and at this point, we will never be pleased with what GB would say now. He can apologize for what he did and admin his error and whatnot, we will still overanalyze his words and whatnot and wont even belive what he has to say now.

Well, wieder, about GB lying: we all know that he used to joke about that, like the time he said DNF woiuld be out after Doom 3 and a little bit before Half-Life 2. If you still belived in what he said about realse dates up to this point, then its your own fault, then I started to ignore that pretty soon, knowing that he was again fooling around.

All he did say is, that it will be relased and he often said that you should not buy into all of his things either. Of course, nobody could see this coming, even if we all asked ourselfs where 3DR got all the money to work on a single game for so long.

I dont see how an aploy or anything from GB will change anything, even if it would be a noble gesture, he will be still handled like an outcast by the fans.

Quotes by Lt.Havoc in the same post

Quote:and I bet thier work contract said

Quote:So you are again assuming things

See wh4tever, that happens when you post at 2 in the night totally sleepy, realizing too late you made some assumptions yourself.

Well, even if that was not standing in thier contracts, they still made good money at 3DR. I rember that a Game Programmer/desinger in germany gets between 4000 and 7000 Euros a month (as a office executive, I only get 1400 Euros a month), that are between 5000 and 10.000 Dollars or something. I just find it interesting that a lot of people seem to care about the ex-emploeeys wehn most of them already have new jobs by now (I wish I could find a job that fast).

I also dont think it was easy for GB to fire his team, that is of course only an assumption on my part.

And thats what it really boils down too: no one of us, expect weider maybe, knows anyone at 3DR. No one knows Scott or Gorege personally, no one of us met him ever in person or worked with him for years etc. and yet we imply that he is a huge moron and whatnot.

Its also interesting that now, where they child fell into the Well, everyone says "I always knew this was becoming a failure" or "from start to finish the whole project was mismanaged by GB" etc. and that is often coming from people who would have defended the game, GB and 3DR 6 months ago and would have said that they are doing the right thing.

Talking about flip-flopping.

[jaimie10]

Originally Posted by Lt.Havoc

And thats what it really boils down too: no one of us, expect weider maybe, knows anyone at 3DR. No one knows Scott or Gorege personally, no one of us met him ever in person or worked with him for years etc. and yet we imply that he is a huge moron and whatnot.

True. And before the DNF team was released and before T2 announced they were suing 3DR no-one could question GB, simply because we had very little information. The general feeling was that although the development of DNF was taking it's time, GB knew what he was doing, the game was going to be amazing and it's release was imminent.

However this isn't the case, The game is still a long way off completion. We all know that. GB isn't a 'huge moron' but if you were charged with the task of putting together a team to develop a game and GB applied for the role of Project Manager, would you honestly even consider him?

[VrX]

Originally Posted by Lt.Havoc

Its also interesting that now, where they child fell into the Well, everyone says "I always knew this was becoming a failure" or "from start to finish the whole project was mismanaged by GB" etc. and that is often coming from people who would have defended the game, GB and 3DR 6 months ago and would have said that they are doing the right thing.

Talking about flip-flopping.

true,true...

i wasn't looking for info on DNF (almost forgotted about it) for couple years ,but since this whole thing 3DR vs T2 surfaced ,after reading 100 and more posts ,
same tought appeared...
it's like stabbing in the back someone who needs u now ,whom u supported more or less the whole time... even if it is justifiable on the basis of anger for not releasing DNF 12+ yrs

[jet jaguar 2.0]

12 years, millions of dollars, and hundreds of thousands of man-hours spent on developement and nothing to show for it but a demo. A demo that convinced Take Two that pouring more money into DNF with the status quo was not only unnacceptable but irresponsible. We know exactly where the fault lies and it isn't with the employees or Take Two.

As for GB's silence in all this I can't see how saying 'Hang in there' or 'Thanks for all your support' to the fans would threaten his position in the lawsuit. I think a lot of the fans are miffed at this lack of communication but whatever.

Oh and without DNF to re-invigorate the franchise the third-party games are going to do increasingly scant sales. The only Duke game I bought in the past decade was DN3D on Gog and Duke Nukem:Manhattan Project. I don't forsee myself going out of my way for non-DNF, third-party Duke games.

[tazman]

[QUOTE=

EDIT: I find it interesting that Tazman never posted again.[/QUOTE]

I never posted again as i thought i made my point - All i can really add to what i have already said is george brussard basically let a lot of people down - some guy mad some comment about he didnt owe anybody anything.
Total bullshit - he had a army of fans that waited 12 years for him to deliver a game and that game never arrived due to his incompatance and on one elses.
gb actually killed 3d realms - killed duke nukem - if he had just released a game every 3 or 4 years he would have a franchise as hot as the call of duty series and 3d realms would of been relient on no one but themselves.
This total failure rests on ones persons shoulders.
George Brussard - end of story

[espguy400]

Originally Posted by Lt.Havoc

So Max Payne 1 and 2, Duke Nukem: Time to Kill, Duke Nukme 64, Duke Nukem: Zero Hour and Duke Nukem Manhatten Project etc. are all bargain bin titels for you? Oh and for the record, there is still Duke Nukem Trilogy, so while we wont see DNF, we will still be able to play Duke games in the future. The franchise is far from dead.

Also, it wais said more then one time that Take 2 is not interested in finishing the game whatshowever and even if they are interested, dont expect that the game will be finished anytime soon because you cant simply give another team the game without schooling them about the tech first and whatnot. So no, thats not going to happen.

Its also interesting that people say it would have been the right thing to sell the Duke IP for only 30 Million Dollars wehn its clearly worth much more and do not forget what that would have meant then: after DNF would have been done, Take 2 can do whatever they want with the IP and I doubt that would have been a good thing.

I mean, you guys complain about the 3rd party Duke games, now imaging that this wouldnt be the expection of some assorted 3rd party Duke games that are actually good, we would see that Take 2 would milk that frachise dry and we would get Halo style games or even worse would give the franchise to game makers in Russia or whatnot that have no idea how to make a decent game even if thier life depends on it (like Strategy First done it with Jagged Alliance).

I dont belive that GB did what he did totally egotistcal and without a thought and I can understand his actions very well. If I go to a company to show them a product and we already agreed on the terms of the contract, I would expect them not to suddenly change it and offering me a sum of cash that is clearly under the actual worth of the product.

Take 2 is a publisher and they wanted much more then that, despite the fact that DNF would have been sold very well, but for some reason where not willing to give 3DR the money to finish it and instead thought they could simply buy the whole franchise.

Another point I want to bring up here is: we do not know why 3DR suddenly had finacial problems, wehn they did rather well in the past. Seeing how a lot of Banks went downhill in this recession, I can imiging that this might have effected 3DR as well. Maybe they had money on a Bank that went downhill, maybe they had a credit at a Bank that went under, we do not know. But there are many ways how 3DR could get into a situation like this and that without any managment errors.

At this point, we even dont know what is happening behind the scenes as well. Maybe the whole thing will be setteld out of court, maybe not. Thing is, that GB cant and wont say anything because they are in the middle of a lawsuit and everything he or Scott might say can effect the lawsuit, so they have to be silent about this. Same goes for the ex-emploeeys.

BTW: a lot of the ex-3DR emploeeys said that they would work for them again if they where given a chance and that speaks for itself.

So yeah, shot happens and sometimes you cant do anything about it, thats life. Everyone of us has at least one epic-fail in our lifes. I do belive that GB did leanr his lesson from it, speically considering that he gets lots of hatemail and whatnot.

I also gotta wonder that you guys compare 3DR with Enron wehn you actually didnt gave 3DR any money, expect back then wehn you bought one of the Duke Games, but back then you got the product, you did not payed 3DR for DNF. All you guys did where wating and speinding time here and whatnot and thats all your own danm faults if you belived everything and wasted your time here and actually waited for the game for 12 years.

You decided to do it, no one forced you, no one pressured you and yet you guys are here demanting things like 3DR actually owes you something.

Thing is, THEY DONT OWE YOU ANYTHING AT ALL!

So, suck it up and live on, there are more important things in life then a game called Duke Nukem Forever.

Holy S*** this is a pretty long fireback don't ya think

[Drazula]

Originally Posted by wieder

And I think the lying part Drazula is talking about is the repeated promises through the years of "It will be out before X" and such.

Exactly. GB needs to start being a bit more honest with himself, stop believing his way is the "right" way. DNF is not the 18 month project Duke 3D was. It takes a whole new level of organization on the Team Leaders part.

[Lt.Havoc]

Originally Posted by espguy400

Holy S*** this is a pretty long fireback don't ya think

Just wanted to post everything in one post, thats all. I was pretty fed up around that point and wanted to make my point as clear as possible, thats why its so long.

[crunchy superman]

Originally Posted by Lt.Havoc

If you still belived in what he said about realse dates up to this point, then its your own fault

wow

[Lt.Havoc]

Originally Posted by crunchy superman

wow

The truth hurts, dosent it?

[crunchy superman]

Originally Posted by Lt.Havoc

The truth hurts, dosent it?

No, wow @ you for blaming the customer for the developer's shortcomings.

[Lt.Havoc]

Originally Posted by crunchy superman

No, wow @ you for blaming the customer for the developer's shortcomings.

They always said "When its done" and I dont recall that they ever gave us a fixed realse date at all. We all just speculated from the tiny bits of info we got.

I also want to point out that you where one of many who supported both 3DR and GB only months ago and would say that its the right thing they did. Intaresting how fast somone changes his view when he dosent get want he wants.

[crunchy superman]

I always admired the amount of balls it took to throw out years of work because it wasn't up to your standards. That isn't to say, however, that it's terribly wise when you don't have the income to support what you're trying to do.

And halting development & letting the team go was the right thing to do, given the circumstances - the only thing to do in fact. That doesn't mean that I like it.

[Lt.Havoc]

Well, yeah, thats true. I dont like it too, but what can we do then what we always did: wait and see? I can understand your furstartion, we all are sitting in the same boat.

Thats the problem its not in our hands, never was and never will be. Still, right now, everything is yet open, anything can happen or can not happen, its this moment where the ball is on the highest point and both sides are wating where it comes down.

[Crosma]

Originally Posted by Lt.Havoc

They always said "When its done" and I dont recall that they ever gave us a fixed realse date at all. We all just speculated from the tiny bits of info we got.

Scott stated both 1998 and 1999 as definitive release years in interviews back in the day. People were already making fun of DNF being late as far back as 1999 because it wasn't released in 1998.

3D Realms' electronic Christmas cards implied (very strongly) 2000 and then 2001 as release years. Of course, they didn't manage that either.

They have always said, "When it's done", but we used to get, "There's no specific release date, but it'll be out in 1998. When it's done." type statements.

[wieder]

Originally Posted by Lt.Havoc

They always said "When its done" and I dont recall that they ever gave us a fixed realse date at all. We all just speculated from the tiny bits of info we got.

George said the game would be out before multiple specific games several times. There are other instances as well.

[Altered Reality]

I dont recall that they ever gave us a fixed realse date at all.

"We want to give Prey as much space as possible, so this meant getting Duke Forever done early in 1998." - Scott Miller, 1997

"We're confident that DNF will be one of the greatest, if not the greatest, game of 1998. And this confidence is not misplaced." - Scott Miller, 1997

"We expect 1998 (our 11th year in the gaming business) to be our best yet, with all kinds of stuff happening with Duke Nukem Forever, Prey, Max Payne, and Descent: Freespace." - Joe Siegler, 1997

"Duke Nukem Forever is a 1999 game and we think that timeframe matches very well with what we have planned for the game." - George Broussard, 1998

"We expect 1999 (our 12th year in the gaming business) to be our best yet, with two new Duke Nukem games coming out, as well as Max Payne (with Prey on the horizon, too)." - Joe Siegler, 1998

"Trust us, Duke Nukem Forever will rock when it comes out next year." - Joe Siegler, 1999

"We expect 2000 (our 13th year in the gaming business) to be our best yet, with the forthcoming Duke Nukem Forever & Max Payne." - Joe Siegler, 1999

"When it's done in 2001." - 2000 Christmas card

"DNF will come out before Unreal 2." - George Broussard, 2001

"If DNF is not out in 2001, something's very wrong." - George Broussard, 2001

"DNF will come out before Doom 3." - George Broussard, 2002

[Lt.Havoc]

Okay okay, guess they did. I just never thought a lot about this. Its also interesting that Joe did say stuff like this too, despite the fact he would always say he had not much to do with the develoment of the game itself.

But anyway, I see what you guys mean, I just never took these for granted, knowing that GB would say a lot when the day is long.

Actually, coming to think of it, why do we actually have these threads and this discussion anyway? I mean, now its too late to change anything, its useless to agure about it, the damage is done and I am not sure if this kind of damage can be repaired anyway.

[TripleH]

Originally Posted by Altered Reality

"If DNF is not out in 2001, something's very wrong." - George Broussard, 2001

priceless

[lordlonelobo]

Originally Posted by TripleH

priceless

I liked:

"We expect 1998 (our 11th year in the gaming business) to be our best yet, with all kinds of stuff happening with Duke Nukem Forever, Prey, Max Payne, and Descent: Freespace." - Joe Siegler, 1997

"We expect 1999 (our 12th year in the gaming business) to be our best yet, with two new Duke Nukem games coming out, as well as Max Payne (with Prey on the horizon, too)." - Joe Siegler, 1998

"We expect 2000 (our 13th year in the gaming business) to be our best yet, with the forthcoming Duke Nukem Forever & Max Payne." - Joe Siegler, 1999

[Tualmasok]

Originally Posted by lordlonelobo

Businesses are liable to their stakeholders, not their employees, and this is the way it should be. Just because you're all pissy about not seeing DNF does not mean that the project leader is worthy of going to jail. The employees were being paid real money for real work, and there are no shareholders. No fraud and no crime was committed.

Publically listed companies owe a lot to their shareholders. 3DR is privately run. The stakeholders in 3DR are the owners, not the employees.

If GB made the same claims and promises about DNF, and 3DR was a publically listed company (answerable to the shareholders) he would have been strung up in front of the board and held accountable for his actions, which would have included a good old firing.

The difference between that scenario and real life is the fact that Broussard co-owns 3DR. He isn't liable to anyone. So sure, no crime or fraud was commited. He got away with the whole fiasco scott free!

[lordlonelobo]

Originally Posted by Tualmasok

Publically listed companies owe a lot to their shareholders. 3DR is privately run. The stakeholders in 3DR are the owners, not the employees.

If GB made the same claims and promises about DNF, and 3DR was a publically listed company (answerable to the shareholders) he would have been strung up in front of the board and held accountable for his actions, which would have included a good old firing.

The difference between that scenario and real life is the fact that Broussard co-owns 3DR. He isn't liable to anyone. So sure, no crime or fraud was commited. He got away with the whole fiasco scott free!

Are you trying to debunk my statement? I don't understand what you're trying to do here, because you basically restated what I said in different words.

[jet jaguar 2.0]

Originally Posted by Altered Reality

"We want to give Prey as much space as possible, so this meant getting Duke Forever done early in 1998." - Scott Miller, 1997

"We're confident that DNF will be one of the greatest, if not the greatest, game of 1998. And this confidence is not misplaced." - Scott Miller, 1997

"We expect 1998 (our 11th year in the gaming business) to be our best yet, with all kinds of stuff happening with Duke Nukem Forever, Prey, Max Payne, and Descent: Freespace." - Joe Siegler, 1997

"Duke Nukem Forever is a 1999 game and we think that timeframe matches very well with what we have planned for the game." - George Broussard, 1998

"We expect 1999 (our 12th year in the gaming business) to be our best yet, with two new Duke Nukem games coming out, as well as Max Payne (with Prey on the horizon, too)." - Joe Siegler, 1998

"Trust us, Duke Nukem Forever will rock when it comes out next year." - Joe Siegler, 1999

"We expect 2000 (our 13th year in the gaming business) to be our best yet, with the forthcoming Duke Nukem Forever & Max Payne." - Joe Siegler, 1999

"When it's done in 2001." - 2000 Christmas card

"DNF will come out before Unreal 2." - George Broussard, 2001

"If DNF is not out in 2001, something's very wrong." - George Broussard, 2001

"DNF will come out before Doom 3." - George Broussard, 2002

Nice job dude! Anyhow, you get a glimpse at just how chaotic things must've been for DNF's development. By the tone of their quotes, Miller, Broussard, and Siegler all must've felt fairly sure that DNF was going to ship on the times they hinted at. So what in the world happened to muck things up each and every single one of those quoted release projections?!

[Caine]

haha nice quote collection, there you see how bad GB and others are at promotion, management etc.

and dont say that all people would have defended duke in the past which are now saying it was clear it failed and so on, that's just nonsense and putting your denial into them, i think most fans or players did expect a bit it could fail or would never be released but everyone still had some hope of course who knew the old duke and the times with duke.

you should not attack each other, why follow some big talkers? did the humanity not learn? GB has to show and prove he is still worth to be believed, but how? he has to release duke forever with the promised quality. even so i and many others wouldnt believe him anymore i guess.