Does a high quality SP mod/map pack exist?

[gt1750]

ROCH maps have brilliant level design. Along with billy boy's maps and Red series, they surely belong to Build mapping hall of fame.

[Radar1013]

Deleted

[Sang]

Radar.. please tell me you're joking

Get new sarcasm detector plz

[Radar1013]

Sorry, i didn't read the rest of his post before i replied. I thought he was being serious. Post deleted now.

Blue Lighting, please oh please, learn the build limitations before posting critics, learn how the engine works, how effects are done. You keep saying "models" while there aren't any models in the game (note how I mean "Original game" circa 1996). So the cars aren't models, they are actual sectors and you couldn't place too many moving sectors or there would be glitches, but that's something that someone who spent his time mapping with build would know.

The Roch series, Red series, are some of the best maps ever made for Duke3d.

Please, enlighten us with some of your work on the build engine, and show us how you can come up with something better than those levels. You will see it's no walk in the park.

[Mikko Sandt]

I fail to see how these two fit together:

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

Gotham had a good shot since it was wide open. It's nice to get to choose from 3 or even 4 different directions you can go (that all end up in the same place). Gives you the feeling that your really in control of your own desteny, and makes you think about what kind of stratagy you would like to emplore.

The ROCH maps are gone. The level design was a mess and didn't feel like it made a lot of sense. Props and even buildings were just placed "here and there" just for the sake of making more routes, without having to make sense.

[Blue Lightning]

Originally Posted by Quakis

I completely agree. Here are some images to back up this fine argument, ladies and gentlemen;



This man speaks many truths. Blue is wise and all knowing. He didn't even have to play any further than the first level to come to such a conclusion!

Yes, and please post the video of the clausterphobicly linear corridors you have to trudge through to get to those fine pics that you displayed. It's one long hallway, or one long vent after another, with waves and waves of ammo depleting enimies. Not much in the way of decent weapons as you go through (except the shotgun) those narrow corridors. A shrinker would of helped, but honestly, I got very bored trying to find my way to the open areas. Sorry, but none of the ROCH maps make the grade.

I have also played Traffic. Not a bad map, but also not what I am searching for. Again, very linear in design with a lot of switchs to find to activate elevators. When a player has to stop and search for switchs every 50 feet to advance, that amounts to level bottlenecking, and that's a pace slowing negative. Also, a lack of ambient sound outside (for the most part) and a real lack of decent weaponry early on to fight the waves and waves of pig cops. What, do SP modders have something against the shrinker or the freezethrower?

Ok, on to the next map. Think I'll play some more of moonbase and see what that offers.

Oh and timothy2, the cars are indeed models...at least on my rig, since I play in 32 polymost.

[William Gee]

It sounds like you may enjoy OGBB.map or WGCity.map both are large nonlinear city's that use all of the weapons lots.

Both can be downloaded from my site.

[DeeperThought]

Originally Posted by William Gee

It sounds like you may enjoy OGBB.map or WGCity.map both are large nonlinear city's that use all of the weapons lots.

Both can be downloaded from my site.

Yeah I recommended WGCITY to him on the last page. I think he will not be able to find the keys in OGBB though.

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

Oh and timothy2, the cars are indeed models...at least on my rig, since I play in 32 polymost.

As I said, go and learn a little bit more about the engine before making yourself look dumb.

[Radar1013]

Okay, as Blue Lightning has said in another thread, he is still learning about game technics and stuff like that so give him some slack.

Blue Lightning, even though you are playing in 32-bit mode, they are still sectors. The only things that become models in 32-bit mode are sprites that were rectreated as models in the HRP. Everything that is a sector in 8-bit stays as a sector in 32-bit. Only sprites become models in 32-bit if they have been recreated as models in the HRP.


But, Blue Lightning. I strongly consider you play through the WHOLE Roch series before you say crap about them like that. They are gold, and i know a lot of other people who would agree with me.

Also blue lighting... what do you think is wrong when everyone likes a map except you? You always seem to go by numbers and how much other people like something to start liking it yourself. If anything...this is an improvement for you! I congratulate you

[Blue Lightning]

Originally Posted by Radar1013

Okay, as Blue Lightning has said in another thread, he is still learning about game technics and stuff like that so give him some slack.

Blue Lightning, even though you are playing in 32-bit mode, they are still sectors. The only things that become models in 32-bit mode are sprites that were rectreated as models in the HRP. Everything that is a sector in 8-bit stays as a sector in 32-bit. Only sprites become models in 32-bit if they have been recreated as models in the HRP.

Actually, "sectors" must amount to the same thing as 3D models, because in Babe Land, those "carts" that you ride in have 3 diminsions...heigth, width, and length. That is why you can ride in the carts. Crates were also 3d as were a few other things iin Duke 3D. Not everything was a sprite...there were models.

Originally Posted by Radar1013

But, Blue Lightning. I strongly consider you play through the WHOLE Roch series before you say crap about them like that. They are gold, and i know a lot of other people who would agree with me.

That's why "a lot of people" are not reviewers. I on the other hand will give an honest, brutal, and very informative opinion about a game, instead of jumping on the "oh, this is a great mod" bandwagon. If I bulit SP maps, I would want me to be play-testing them!

Let me make this offer to SP map makers. If you are making a map and are serious about having the highest quality, top fun-factor DN3D map, get in touch with me, and let me play-test your stuff AS YOU BUILD IT. Working together as a team, we can create the best SP maps possible for DN3D.

Originally Posted by William Gee

It sounds like you may enjoy OGBB.map or WGCity.map both are large nonlinear city's that use all of the weapons lots.

Both can be downloaded from my site.

I look forward to it.

[Sang]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

Actually, "sectors" must amount to the same thing as 3D models, because in Babe Land, those "carts" that you ride in have 3 diminsions...heigth, width, and length. That is why you can ride in the carts.

Okay now it's just obvious you know next to nothing about Build. I strongly recommend you read a Mapping FAQ so you'll know at least to a small degree what you're talking about.

[Blue Lightning]

Don't need to. I do not need tech savvy to understand how to play and review a level. Besides, what did I get wrong? Are you going to tell me that the crates in Duke 3D are not models? (if their not, they shure as hell look like it with their 3 dimensions. That's close enough for me).

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

Don't need to. I do not need tech savvy to understand how to play and review a level. Besides, what did I get wrong? Are you going to tell me that the crates in Duke 3D are not models? (if their not, they shure as hell look like it with their 3 dimensions. That's close enough for me).

The original Duke3D does not feature any 3D-model. All what you see is either level geometry (whether it being a vehicle or a house) or a sprite.

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

Actually, "sectors" must amount to the same thing as 3D models, because in Babe Land, those "carts" that you ride in have 3 diminsions...heigth, width, and length. That is why you can ride in the carts. Crates were also 3d as were a few other things iin Duke 3D. Not everything was a sprite...there were models.

No, those carts are plain level geometry that is capable of moving just like a door or an elevator. It's the exact same thing.

[Blue Lightning]

Ok Iggy...thanks. And lets say that "plain level geometry" amounts to the same thing as "models", since the end result is the same....which is 3 dimensions even if it only APPEARS to be 3 dimensions.

[Sang]

No no, a model is something completely different A truck amounts to the same thing as a car but a truck isn't a car.

[blizzart]

Damn, Blue Lightning. You start to piss me off.
If you don´t like the Roch maps you should quit playing or reviewing DN3D user maps, because there will maybe no map that fits to your so called high quality feelings.

[Commando Nukem]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

Ok Iggy...thanks. And lets say that "plain level geometry" amounts to the same thing as "models", since the end result is the same....which is 3 dimensions even if it only APPEARS to be 3 dimensions.

No it doesnt.

I model, I am versed in it. I also used to map for build.

Two different styles of creation, two different ways of rendering objects in space.

Not to mention. You cant view most sector work from all sides. Its 2D lines forming a "fake" 3D object. Whereas a model is made up of points in space that make a 100% 3D object.

[Mikko Sandt]

Originally Posted by blizzart

If you don´t like the Roch maps you should quit playing or reviewing DN3D user maps, because there will maybe no map that fits to your so called high quality feelings.

Well at least he tells us exactly why he doesn't like them instead of just coming up with arguments like "this is shit cuz it's shit".

[blizzart]

And exactly his arguments doesn´t make any sense as Sang mentioned before. What wil he tell us when he plays a map by Billy Boy?

[diehard52]

i think this guy is expecting to much out of a 12 year old game...even so he is wanting something of the caliber of 3d-realms but IMO there alot of user maps better than the single player campaign...

[Blue Lightning]

Has nothing to do with the age of the original game. Nothing at all. I'm not looking for Half Life 2's physics and graphics or BioShocks enviromental multi-gameplay elements. I like Duke 3D just the way it is. All I am talking about is level design...that's it. Just level design.

most the the maps I have played are "ok". They have good points and bad points. But I am looking for a certain map...one that I fear may not exist. I will continue to search the many SP maps looking for the 3D Realms quality gameplay experience. What I will not do, and what I will never do, is give an SP mod a "pass" and claim that it is a map is that is as good as any 3DR map just to be part of the crowd. I won't do that. And if you call me "idiodic" or "conceeded", that's fine. I will not sell out.

I didn't like every 3DR map either, only most of them, although most of what I didn't like was in the Atomic levels (but a few of the atomic levels I loved). Overall however, the 3DR maps have a better feel to them, and a higher fun-factor. My search will continue.

[Radar1013]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

Actually, "sectors" must amount to the same thing as 3D models, because in Babe Land, those "carts" that you ride in have 3 diminsions...heigth, width, and length. That is why you can ride in the carts. Crates were also 3d as were a few other things iin Duke 3D. Not everything was a sprite...there were models.

...made out of sectors. They are still called sectors. And your the one who said who said the "I'm playing in 32-bit so those sectors are model" shit so don't pretend like you know everything about computers. Start listening to people who are definately smarter than you.

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

That's why "a lot of people" are not reviewers. I on the other hand will give an honest, brutal, and very informative opinion about a game, instead of jumping on the "oh, this is a great mod" bandwagon. If I bulit SP maps, I would want me to be play-testing them!

This is why YOU are not a reviewer.

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

Let me make this offer to SP map makers. If you are making a map and are serious about having the highest quality, top fun-factor DN3D map, get in touch with me, and let me play-test your stuff AS YOU BUILD IT. Working together as a team, we can create the best SP maps possible for DN3D!

No. None of the best mappers will ever do that. Also, if you know so much about what makes a good map, then learn how to build so we can see what good maps look like.

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

Ok Iggy...thanks. And lets say that "plain level geometry" amounts to the same thing as "models", since the end result is the same....which is 3 dimensions even if it only APPEARS to be 3 dimensions.

They are still called sectors!

[Sang]

All I am talking about is level design...that's it. Just level design.

So got any prerequisite for the "perfect map" that isn't vague? Because as far as I know all levels have level design.

[Blue Lightning]

Sure...well designed levels. If you read my posts Sang, you will see I have not been vauge in the least.

Originally Posted by Radar1013

...made out of sectors. They are still called sectors. And your the one who said who said the "I'm playing in 32-bit so those sectors are model" shit so don't pretend like you know everything about computers. Start listening to people who are definately smarter than you.

Firstly, there is a chance that it is a model in 32 bit polymost, if the HRP team made it a model. If they did or not, I don't really care. Secondly, playing "gotcha" on a technical matter isn't appropriate, as I have always admitted I know nothing about programing and coding and building, and anyway this thread is about SP maps quality.

Originally Posted by Radar1013

...This is why YOU are not a reviewer.

You need to realize that I am supposed to be playing and reviewing STALKER right now, for a whole bunch of eagerly waiting players on the Steam STALKER forums. I am (for now) forsaking that task, so I may play and review some Duke Nukem 3D maps, something that I have been wanting to get to for a while now.

Originally Posted by Radar1013

...No. None of the best mappers will ever do that. Also, if you know so much about what makes a good map, then learn how to build so we can see what good maps look like.

Starting from scratch, it would take way too long for me to learn all of the technical stuff involved. Mabey if I was 18 it would of been different.

[Radar1013]

Allright man i get your point. I geuss rating Duke3D levels isn't one of the things you knwo how to do. But age shouldn't matter if you can't make Duke3D levels. How old is Piturplus's son? I think he is very young and he has alrady made some pretty good maps.

Also, FYI, sectors can't be turned into models, only sprites.

[Blue Lightning]

You missed the point...I am much older than 18 lol. I have a buisness and my time is eaten up so it would be hard for me to learn the Build engine and the map build process, espicially since I know nothing about it and would have to start from the very beggining.

However, if Deeperthought would like to team up and build a map, I would go for that.

Now I am playing a lunar map called ymf500g. It is an interesting game map so far, about 20 minutes in. It has nice looking corridoors, and although linear in design, it has a high fun factor so far thanks to a well concieved map design, and good atmosphere. Of course to help the atmosphere along a bit, I chose the "Xplasma.midi" song or whatever it is called, (it's the theme in "Darkside"), which is the perfect serene song for a moonbased themed level. It has a tranquil, lonley sound to it, which goes perfect with the lonleyness of space.

Also, this map suprised me with an offering of a shrinker early on in the map! Of course I love the sci-fi weapons like the shrinker and the freezethrower because they are so much damn fun to use...and they should be offered on more maps since Duke 3D is a sci-fi FPS. This map even has a story to it, which I find a rarity in SP mods. I can say that this map is looking very good so far.

EDIT: The astroid running into the side of the space station and creating a hole in the wall...a hole that I could not jump through...a hole that would not suck me into space...well, it does not make sense. But so far it is the only thing that doesn't make sense, and that's a plus.

Early score: 90/100

[DeeperThought]

Since you liked that, you will probably also like other maps by Alejandro Glavic, such as Military Madness and Another Timeless Night (which I keep telling you).

[The Commander]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

EDIT: The astroid running into the side of the space station and creating a hole in the wall...a hole that I could not jump through...a hole that would not suck me into space...well, it does not make sense. But so far it is the only thing that doesn't make sense, and that's a plus.

Well, I thought you would know why this isnt possible, You seem to Bash Duke3D levels like you know how the engine works or you have your own game you made which is better! But to the trained eye we know that the above effect is not possible with out con editing and couldnt be done with build alone. You really should either learn how the Duke engine works before you go around trying to give reviews of maps because you don't seem to know how things work and what can and can not be done.

[Blue Lightning]

Originally Posted by The Commander

Well, I thought you would know why this isnt possible, You seem to Bash Duke3D levels like you know how the engine works or you have your own game you made which is better! But to the trained eye we know that the above effect is not possible with out con editing and couldnt be done with build alone. You really should either learn how the Duke engine works before you go around trying to give reviews of maps because you don't seem to know how things work and what can and can not be done.

*sigh*

I don't have to know how the Build engine works, to know that if there is a hole in the wall larger than you are, and it is in space, you would get sucked out into space. Wether or not Build engine could do that has nothing to do with it. The laws of physics demand that either you get sucked out into space, or the author shouldnt of put the astroid bit in the map in the first place. Reality check.

And playing maps and reviewing them does not require knowledge of game builds. It only requiers some insight and some taste.

Originally Posted by DeeperThought

Since you liked that, you will probably also like other maps by Alejandro Glavic, such as Military Madness and Another Timeless Night (which I keep telling you).

I'll get to it Deeprthought, I'm testing many maps

[kaotic_oz]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

you would get sucked out into space. Wether or not Build engine could do that has nothing to do with it. The laws of physics demand that either you get sucked out into space, or the author shouldnt of put the astroid bit in the map in the first place. Reality check.

Since its a sci-fi space map surely a forcefield would activate to protect you from getting blown out into space?

[The Commander]

Originally Posted by kaotic_oz

Since its a sci-fi space map surely a forcefield would activate to protect you from getting blown out into space?

That was going to be my reply to that as well.

I can see Blue Lighting wont be making many friends here, He has no idea of how things work. If something isnt good enough for him yet other people like it he has to try and force other people into thinking that it is crap.

[Blue Lightning]

No, I don't. I give my own opinion of what I think of a map. You can choose to agree, or disagree...or not even respond at all. Your choice. But just because I don't "go along to get along" doesn't mean I am telling players what they should think. I'm telling them what I think, and moreover, what I think about them going along with anything. I give details of what I think is wrong with a map. I will not "pretend" that I like something just to make you happy. Making freinds or not making freinds is not in the equation. Brutal honesty is.

[blizzart]

But your opinion is based on a totally wrong knowledge of game engines. You expect HL2´s physics as you mentioned, but this is nearly impossible with a 12 years old engine.
I know there is a gravity gun mod by DeeperThought, but this was made with Eduke 32 which was released in 2004 (if I remember correct) and the maps you "tested" are released years before and don´t even have modified cons.

I understand your point, that a wall in space is blown up and you won´t get suck into space is not realistic, but if you would know, how the engine works, you would also know that this is a very impressive effect. As mentioned before to get suck into space it would take some advanced con coding and not every mapper is a coder, too (and as said above you could only make it with Eduke32 and this map was released years before it).

[v10]

Have you checked The Gate yet? If not, do it. That is a large four-episode pack (about 30 levels), which, in my opinion, is often quite on par with the original game. Not every level, but the whole first episode, most of the second one, the third one, and a lot of the fourth one. In other words, nearly everything. And it plays like the original, simple (not easy, but simple) and fun.
Less humour, but otherwise very similar experience. Shortened "They live!" (except the first level is a bit large, but you don't have to do all of it), Vacation theme, then Red Planet Mars - the best piece IMHO.

I don't have to know how the Build engine works, to know that if there is a hole in the wall larger than you are, and it is in space, you would get sucked out into space.

What's worst is that you aren't entirely aware...
Not always. If one braces for impact, his only problem will be decompression itself.
But the best the Build can do is kill the player.

[ilovefoxes]

About the asteroid, there could be done a door (even with the glass to make it transparent) that close with the asteroid. There are some another options.

I liked the Blue Lightning criticism. He took a eye out of the self-protection of builders.
The first thing that comes to my mind is this text: http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Realistic_map - somehow what the "Problems" part says did reflect much problems in Duke levels.

[Mikko Sandt]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

Now I am playing a lunar map called ymf500g.

It's not lunar.

It is an interesting game map so far, about 20 minutes in.

You play pretty slowly and hold breaks? YMF500G is a ten-minute map.

I wonder how much Lighthouse (or any level by Billy Boy) would take you although you'd never play it (complex, totally non-linear and huge with tough puzzles). It took me two hours and I'm pretty fast.

Originally Posted by v10

Have you checked The Gate yet? If not, do it. That is a large four-episode pack (about 30 levels), which, in my opinion, is often quite on par with the original game.

I don't think he'd like it. There are many levels with puzzles that "don't make sense" and seeing how not finding one key in Gotham turned him against the level I think he'd hate many of the levels in The Gate.

[DeeperThought]

Originally Posted by ilovefoxes

The first thing that comes to my mind is this text: http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Realistic_map - somehow what the "Problems" part says did reflect much problems in Duke levels.

But not the Duke levels that he's been playing...

LH is right that there is nothing wrong with criticizing a game when you don't understand its limitations. Map authors must know how to work within the limitations to create something great. HOWEVER, some of his criticisms are simply inaccurate (as Quakis nicely demonstrated with those Roch screenshots).

Also, it is fine to judge level design according to high standards, but he shouldn't assume that only one style of gameplay is correct.