Does a high quality SP mod/map pack exist?

[Blue Lightning]

I have been playing some SP mods for DN3D. So far, no joy.


Ok, there must be thousands if not 10's of thousands of SP mods (what I call single player maps or SP full games) made for DN3D. I would never have time to look, so I am asking if there are a few maps...or better yet a few full games, that are DN3D SP mod, and are high quality. I guess what I mean by that is 3D Realms quality...like the maps are so good, it's as if 3DR themselves made the maps...you know?

For example, in the Half Life 2 world, there are a ton of SP mods, but only one of those is truley HQ, so much that it is as if VALVe themselves made it...Minerva Metastasis. All of the other ones are not worth playing (to me). I spent weeks playing through those until I found Minerva. I wanted to avoid that on DN3D, and get right to the good stuff. I am looking for maps that feature original music only, and original enviroments (ie. city, desert, moonscapes).

Also, the way I have been doing this is I will DL some DN3D maps, and then in the DN3D front screen I choose "user maps" to open the map I DL (all of them strangley feature the same song...from "Red Light District"). That's fine for a single map, but if I DL a DN3D SP mod that has several levels, how would I open that? Would I have to finish a level and go back to "user maps" and then go to the next level? Or can you open an SP game that you DL, and it automatically goes to the next level, just like DN3D?

Anyway, I appreciate work that anybody does to build a map, and I'm not trying to be negative toward them, I just want to get right to the good stuff

[DeeperThought]

You have tried going to MSDN and DNR and downloading the highest rated maps/episodes?

[Radar1013]

Download Red3, Red4, and Red5 off of MSDN (they should be in the top right corner, they are one of the best game on the site). no new art and they can build tension, something people think couldn't be done in Duke Nukem 3D using original art. Red and Red2 aren't worth it though, they are just simple Duke3D maps.

Also, get the Roch series (1-9 levels) from http://www.duke4.net/download.php?mirror.3. They are the second best series of maps for Duke3D.

If these don't satisfy you, i assure you nothing else will.


Also, don't play these maps in 32-bit, 32-bit will screw them up.

[Blue Lightning]

Thanks Radar1013 and Deeperthought, I just DL'd the Roch series, looking forward to giving it a try. As far as the Red series goes, I don't even know what MSDN is or where.

EDIT: Again, I mean no disrespect to anyone who makes a map I don't like, and there are very few SP maps from ANY GAME, beit Duke, of Half Life, or any other game, that are "studio quality". This is what I have found over the years. Therefore, those who make maps (sp mods) could look at this as a challenge...a challenge to build something that is "3DR quality".

[Radar1013]

MSDN: http://msdn.planetduke.gamespy.com/

Look in the top right corner and you will see Red3, Red4, and Red5.

[Blue Lightning]

Ok thanks. But first, I am having a real problem opening up these ROCH maps.

I DL'd the file, and then uncompressed them in my DN3D directory. (in other words, my Duke 3D folder where all the files are). So now there are two new folders in there...both uncompressed and unlocked. One is "drrochlauncer_v 35" and the other folder is "rochmaps_1thru8". Ok, now I do not see them under my "usermaps" menu in the Duke3D options screen. I do not know how to open these maps. Grrr

With the HL2 mod "Minerva Metastasis", all I have to do is click on the Minerva Metastasis icon that you DL, and it AUTOMATICALLY opens the game, and it offers you the four chapters (levels) that Minerva has. It has it's own menu and everything. Why cannot DN3D SP mods be like that?

[DeeperThought]

Duke 3D is unusual in that it has inspired a large number of high quality user maps, many of which greatly surpass the originals in their level of detail, and at least equal them in terms of gameplay. It's one of the main reasons I keep modding the game.

Don't blame the ROCH maps for your ineptitude. They were originally released as single maps, not an episode. Just put files with the .map extension in your folder and open them as user maps. If you want to play them as an episode, you'll have to put all the map files in there and then add the episode to USER.CON

[Blue Lightning]

Finally, some instructions.

So do you mean I create a new USER.CON folder with the ROCH maps in it, and then when I open Duke it will offer me "LA MELTDOWN", LUNAR APOCOLYPSE", "SHRAPNEL CITY", "THE BIRTH", and "ROCH"? Is that how it works? If not, then please tell me how this works.

Once I understand how opening maps works, then I can try many maps and episodes that are "high quality", as you point out.

[DeeperThought]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

Finally, some instructions.

So do you mean I create a new USER.CON folder with the ROCH maps in it, and then when I open Duke it will offer me "LA MELTDOWN", LUNAR APOCOLYPSE", "SHRAPNEL CITY", "THE BIRTH", and "ROCH"? Is that how it works? If not, then please tell me how this works.

Once I understand how opening maps works, then I can try many maps and episodes that are "high quality", as you point out.

You can do it this way. Create a folder called "ROCH" and put all of the ROCH maps (roch1-roch8) inside of it, and then put the ROCH folder inside your main Duke 3D folder. Then put the attached "USER.CON" file inside your main folder as well (not inside the ROCH folder). ROCH should show up as episode 5.

USER.rar

Below is the relevant part of USER.CON which I edited so that you can play the ROCH maps as an episode:

definevolumename 0 L.A. MELTDOWN
definevolumename 1 LUNAR APOCALYPSE
definevolumename 2 SHRAPNEL CITY
definevolumename 3 THE BIRTH
definevolumename 4 ROCH

// Skill titles cannot excede 32 characters.
defineskillname 0 PIECE OF CAKE
defineskillname 1 LET'S ROCK
defineskillname 2 COME GET SOME
defineskillname 3 DAMN I'M GOOD

// Level file names cannot excede 128 characters.
// Level par cannot excede 5 characters (min:sec)
// Level titles cannot excede 32 characters.
definelevelname 0 0 E1L1.map 01:45 00:53 HOLLYWOOD HOLOCAUST
definelevelname 0 1 E1L2.map 05:10 03:21 RED LIGHT DISTRICT
definelevelname 0 2 E1L3.map 05:35 03:41 DEATH ROW
definelevelname 0 3 E1L4.map 07:20 04:40 TOXIC DUMP
definelevelname 0 4 E1L5.map 09:10 05:00 THE ABYSS
definelevelname 0 5 E1L6.map 05:15 02:58 LAUNCH FACILITY
definelevelname 0 6 E1L7.map 00:00 00:00 FACES OF DEATH
definelevelname 0 7 E1L8.map 99:99 99:99 USER MAP
definelevelname 0 8 E1L9.map 12:48 16:32 VOID ZONE
definelevelname 0 9 E1L10.map 0T:HX 11:38 ROACH CONDO
definelevelname 0 10 E1L11.map 08:67 53:09 ANTIPROFIT
definelevelname 1 0 E2L1.map 02:30 01:19 SPACEPORT
definelevelname 1 1 E2L2.map 02:30 01:26 INCUBATOR
definelevelname 1 2 E2L3.map 05:00 02:26 WARP FACTOR
definelevelname 1 3 E2L4.map 04:30 02:14 FUSION STATION
definelevelname 1 4 E2L5.map 03:00 01:26 OCCUPIED TERRITORY
definelevelname 1 5 E2L6.map 02:30 01:04 TIBERIUS STATION
definelevelname 1 6 E2L7.map 04:45 02:15 LUNAR REACTOR
definelevelname 1 7 E2L8.map 11:30 04:59 DARK SIDE
definelevelname 1 8 E2L9.map 05:00 02:26 OVERLORD
definelevelname 1 9 E2L10.map 03:00 01:19 SPIN CYCLE
definelevelname 1 10 E2L11.map 03:00 00:52 LUNATIC FRINGE
definelevelname 2 0 E3L1.map 02:30 01:11 RAW MEAT
definelevelname 2 1 E3L2.map 04:45 02:18 BANK ROLL
definelevelname 2 2 E3L3.map 03:00 01:57 FLOOD ZONE
definelevelname 2 3 E3L4.map 03:15 01:46 L.A. RUMBLE
definelevelname 2 4 E3L5.map 02:30 01:04 MOVIE SET
definelevelname 2 5 E3L6.map 03:30 01:30 RABID TRANSIT
definelevelname 2 6 E3L7.map 02:00 00:55 FAHRENHEIT
definelevelname 2 7 E3L8.map 02:15 01:09 HOTEL HELL
definelevelname 2 8 E3L9.map 02:45 01:17 STADIUM
definelevelname 2 9 E3L10.map 00:45 00:10 TIER DROPS
definelevelname 2 10 E3L11.map 02:00 01:07 FREEWAY
definelevelname 3 0 E4L1.map 03:04 01:32 IT'S IMPOSSIBLE
definelevelname 3 1 E4L2.map 04:00 02:00 DUKE-BURGER
definelevelname 3 2 E4L3.map 03:30 01:45 SHOP-N-BAG
definelevelname 3 3 E4L4.map 06:32 03:16 BABE LAND
definelevelname 3 4 E4L5.map 02:02 01:01 PIGSTY
definelevelname 3 5 E4L6.map 03:04 01:52 GOING POSTAL
definelevelname 3 6 E4L7.map 01:24 00:42 XXX-STACY
definelevelname 3 7 E4L8.map 03:18 01:59 CRITICAL MASS
definelevelname 3 8 E4L9.map 05:02 02:51 DERELICT
definelevelname 3 9 E4L10.map 10:50 05:25 THE QUEEN
definelevelname 3 10 E4L11.map 04:20 02:10 AREA 51
definelevelname 4 0 ROCH/Roch.map 20:00 10:00 ROCH
definelevelname 4 1 ROCH/Roch2.map 20:00 10:00 ROCH2
definelevelname 4 2 ROCH/ROCH3.map 20:00 10:00 ROCH3
definelevelname 4 3 ROCH/ROCH4.map 20:00 10:00 ROCH4
definelevelname 4 4 ROCH/ROCH5.map 20:00 10:00 ROCH5
definelevelname 4 5 ROCH/Roch6.map 20:00 10:00 ROCH6
definelevelname 4 6 ROCH/ROCH7.map 20:00 10:00 ROCH7
definelevelname 4 7 ROCH/Roch8.map 20:00 10:00 ROCH8

[Radar1013]

Hey Blue Lightning, i've created this .zip file for you. All you have to do is take the content inside of it and extract it in your Duke Nukem 3D directory. Then, simply fire up eDuke32 and you will see a 5th episode named Roch.

Also, remember to use 8-bit with this episode, 32-bit screws it up.

http://www.mediafire.com/?5vzi3zlnzy2

EDIT: Woops, i didn't see DeeperThought's post.

You can use which one you want Blue Lightning, but i've noticed that Deeperthought's doesn't have the 9th level in his code. The 9th level was actually supposed to be a secret level but since it was never used i have put it as the last level for the whole episode. It makes sense too, since the 8th level doesn't have a boss, but the secret level does.

[DeeperThought]

The secret level has a boss? Are you sure you aren't using that slightly modified version of it that I included with DNWMD, where I added a queen to the end so it could be an alternate ending?

[Blue Lightning]

Well, I don't have a fileplanet acct (probebly I do but forgot the pass), so it looks like Red 3, 4, and 5 are out. The Roch maps..hmm, so far they do not make a lot of sense to me. Ok, don't anyone get mad at me, but I'll give my opinion of them so far.

BTW, I said original enviroments and music is what I want, but not nessacarly only original models. I don't mind seeing some new art..like the Neon signs for example. Not all of them have to say "Cinema" or "Hotel" or whatever.

Anyway, back to ROCH. I have not played them all yet, so I might give a better impression of them tomorrow or something. But my impression of them so far is as follows:


***A quick review of ROCH***

The level design and props in ROCH makes no sense. It is like a mish-mash of a bunch of different models from DN3D, all strewn about the levels just for the sake of having them there. There are directors chairs out in the middle of concrete slabs, there are holes with water in them anywhere I look, there are strippers dancing in someones kitchen, there are cars that DRIVE THEMSELVES around the city, there are all neon signs from DN3D everywhere, even where they don't belong...I can go on, but you get the point, it doesn't make sense. Also, the levels have wide open areas which is good, but no sense of where we need to be going, which is bad. It's like a bunch of corridors were thrown together. Whereas in Duke 3D, although not completley linear, you always had an idea of where to go. So ROCH level design could of been better. Damn it level design is everything (I guess this is why Levelord and Alen Blum get the big bucks).

There is no "natural progression" as you begin. You may find any and all enimies right from the start! Same with weapons. To me, natural progression is very important in an SP mod, so when you face a tougher enemy or grab a better weapon, it took time to get there and you feel as though you earned it.

So far (and my opinion may change as I continue playing), ROCH does not seem "studio quality" to me. It does not feel like I am playing extra levels of DN3D from 3D Realms. Again, not trying to be destructive here, but hopefuly CONstructive with my opinion. Now, if that is the best "high quality" SP maps that are offered, then it looks like I may need to learn how to mod so I can make some maps and show what I am talking about. So far, I score ROCH 65/100.

Where are those maps that are better quality than 3D Realms that Deeperthought is talking about?

[DeeperThought]

It sounds to me like your criticisms are heavily weighted towards his first map. They are nonlinear, that's true, but in terms of construction and sprite placement etc. they get much better.

[DeeperThought]

Some random maps that I think are very good (I'm not going to compare them with the original maps, because I don't want to get into a pissing match about that):

DOOMCITY
MILITARY MADNESS
RED 5
WG CITY (singleplayer version)
DISCARDED STRONGHOLD

Those are by all different authors, and I think I listed them chronologically. If you don't like these maps, then that's your own personal taste, but most other people who have played them recognize them as excellent maps.

[Blue Lightning]

Ok thanks Deeperthought.

I will mabey have to start with Red 5, and go from there (guess I'll have to sign up again ). What I am afraid of is the very same thing that happens with every FPS out there...the SP mods (for the most part) are not that good compared with the original parent game. This seems to hold true with every FPS out there, and it is too bad. All it takes is imagination.

I wanted to prove myself a few months back and tried DLing the VALVe SDK and got started. But I kept getting error messages and got frustrated and quit. As you know, I don't know a damn thing about codeing.

Anyway I am progressing through ROCH, but admittidatly, it has turned from a playful romp though the levels, into a galant struggle just to stay awake. I'll keep on though.

[DeeperThought]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

Anyway I am progressing through ROCH, but admittidatly, it has turned from a playful romp though the levels, into a galant struggle just to stay awake. I'll keep on though.

The ROCH maps have a lot of "find the tiny hidden button" puzzles, which can be frustrating at times, and they are also very nonlinear. That style of map is not for everyone. If it bores you, there are lots of other high quality user maps of various styles to choose from. The maps I mentioned and others are arranged into episodes in my DNWMD mod, which you can download from Mod DB. If you don't want to play the mod you can just take the maps out and play them with regular Duke 3D.

[Mikko Sandt]

I recently released a pack of 71 high quality Duke3D usermaps (mostly from 1999 to 2002). In case you're too lazy with Fileplanet, here's an alternative download link:
http://files.filefront.com/msdnmoder.../fileinfo.html

Download the pack and pick any map - they're all worthy. Note that the pack only has usermaps, there are no TCs.

[Radar1013]

You should get a fileplanet account again, Red3, 4, and 5 are great if you like horror.

[Blue Lightning]

Ok, I downloaded your map pack of "71 high quality maps" Mikko Sandt, and I have just got one loaded up so far, called "Gotham". Not even half way through the level yet, but I can tell you that this is more like it! This is the kind of map I am talking about! The level design seems pro, as everything makes sense. On top of that, props are not just "thrown around willy nilly", and if the sign says "Hotel" there will be an actual Hotel to explore complete with many rooms (and adjacent bathrooms). Things in this map make sense.

Gotham is a wide open, mostley non-linear level...but I seem to know where to go, plus a little exploration is fun. The main thing is that I am not getting lost. There is even a little new art, done in a tastful way that I can imagine 3D Realms might of done themselves. The whole level (so far) feels like a clean, polished production. The only problem I have found so far, is that only a small area outside is there ambient sound (wind). Most of the outside area has no wind noise, which I have to deduct points for. Still, it is a great level.

Gotham Score: 91/100. (Edit: this score has been downgraded. See the post several posts down)

I hope the other 70 maps are not this good, I won't have time to eat for the next few weeks

For some reason every game I open up has the "Red Light District" theme. I guess it is the "User Maps" default song. Oh well, I know how to change the music with Shift and F5.

[William Gee]

If you haven't tried it yet. My WGRealms episode.
http://duke3d.bur.st/maps/WGRealms

And any other SP maps from my site.
http://wgrealms.williamgeegallery.com/

[Mikko Sandt]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

For some reason every game I open up has the "Red Light District" theme. I guess it is the "User Maps" default song. Oh well, I know how to change the music with Shift and F5.

Yeah, it's the Dethtoll.mid. Some maps are packed with a new midi, usually named Dethtoll so all you need is copy them into your Duke3D folder and they will play every time you play a custom map. Or, if you have a favorite midi in mind just rename it to dethtoll.mid.

If you want to extract all Duke3D midis from the GRP use a tool called Kextract.exe (comes with all the Build stuff) and type "kextract duke3d.grp *.mid".

[Sang]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

All it takes is imagination.

Okay pardon me for pissing on your parade here but until you've actually made a good map yourself there's no way that you can claim that all it takes to make a good map is "imagination". If this were true than even the noobiest of the noob could make a godlike map. It also takes skill to make a good map and even though Build is one of the easiest editors to work with it can still be a pickle to master it.

[Commando Nukem]

Originally Posted by Sang

Okay pardon me for pissing on your parade here but until you've actually made a good map yourself there's no way that you can claim that all it takes to make a good map is "imagination". If this were true than even the noobiest of the noob could make a godlike map. It also takes skill to make a good map and even though Build is one of the easiest editors to work with it can still be a pickle to master it.

Yep. Just about anyone has a fairly good imagination... The artist is the one who can translate his or her imagination into something tangible (painting, song, movie, map...etc)

[Radar1013]

You guys know what he means. Stop picking on him.

[Commando Nukem]

Originally Posted by Radar1013

You guys know what he means. Stop picking on him.

I can't speak for Sang, but I was not picking on him.

[Lightning Hunter]

Originally Posted by Mikko Sandt

I recently released a pack of 71 high quality Duke3D usermaps (mostly from 1999 to 2002). In case you're too lazy with Fileplanet, here's an alternative download link:
http://files.filefront.com/msdnmoder.../fileinfo.html

Download the pack and pick any map - they're all worthy. Note that the pack only has usermaps, there are no TCs.

Thanks for that. I didn't have a few of the maps in that pack. I didn't know the Crucial Conflict trilogy had a compiled episode.

[Sang]

Originally Posted by Radar1013

You guys know what he means. Stop picking on him.

No I don't know what he means at all. I'm sure his English is good enough to express what he means without coming off sounding like someone who knows squat about how to make maps.

Also wtf @ complaining about cars that drive themselves in Roch 1. Perhaps Herr Lightning has forgotten that Duke 3D is in fact a 12-year-old game?

[Blue Lightning]

Uh oh...Lightning Hunter is back. Hopefully it is white lightning he hunts and not blue lightning

Sang, your reaction to my posts make it seem as if you are the one who made ROCH and are offended by me...if that is the case I did not mean to offend. I am brutaly honest when it come to reviewing games, but would you want it any other way?

Originally Posted by Mikko Sandt

Yeah, it's the Dethtoll.mid. Some maps are packed with a new midi, usually named Dethtoll so all you need is copy them into your Duke3D folder and they will play every time you play a custom map. Or, if you have a favorite midi in mind just rename it to dethtoll.mid.

If you want to extract all Duke3D midis from the GRP use a tool called Kextract.exe (comes with all the Build stuff) and type "kextract duke3d.grp *.mid".

Thanks. I have absolutly no idea what you just said, but I'm sure it makes perfect sense. Ok, if I have a map that I like and want to keep, how EXACTLY can I assign a certain DN3D song to it? Like Stalker.midi for example? Do I go into the Gotham file and make the change?


Trouble with Gotham..mabey a great map gone bad?

EDIT: Ok, I am in trouble in "Gotham". I already have the blue keycard and now am in the basment bar which is the only unlocked place I can go, looking for the yellow keycard...but there is none down there. Deadend. No way to advance. Now I am using the 32 polymost, so mabey something is not showing up, but if I cannot fiind a way to advance, I will have to drop Gothams score from a 91/100, to a 0/100, because a level that dead ends is useless. Gee, I had some high hopes for this level.

The author has made this part too difficult, and there is no walkthrough text in the folder. If there is no way to advance, I will send Gotham to the recycle bin, and sigh knowing that what I said all along must still be the case.

[blizzart]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

Uh oh...Lightning Hunter is back. Hopefully it is white lightning he hunts and not blue lightning

Sang, your reaction to my posts make it seem as if you are the one who made ROCH and are offended by me...if that is the case I did not mean to offend. I am brutaly honest when it come to reviewing games, but would you want it any other way?

The Roch maps are not made by Sang.

[Blue Lightning]

Well, I am sorry to say that Gotham did not meet expectations after all.

The last thing I want to do while playing a game, is be saying to myself "damn, where is that keycard. I know it must be around somewhere". This is a very destructive thing, as 3D Realms was careful to make the keycards OBVIOUS so you could spend your time doing what is fun...which is kicking alien arse.

Also, I am now noticing that Gotham used a lot of props from "Lunar Apocolypse", like airlock doors...which makes no sense since Gotham takes place in a city. All of this, along with the lack of ambient sound, is seriously degrading my Gotham score. It has dropped to a real score of 72/100, and that is only IF I could ever find the yellow keycard...which I won't, since I am now abandoning this map.

The question in this thread title remains. I will now continue my search for a "high quality pro sp map", as I now am starting up the "Traffic" map and "Lost Moonbase".

Please note, I am not trying to be facicious in ANY WAY. I have an uncanny ability to notice details that many others might miss. I have been reviewing games for quite some time now (mostley on the STEAM forums), and though I am far from being perfect or a "know-it-all", I believe I can give quite a good review of any game. And it looks like I may be reviewing all of these maps, in my desperate search for that elusive high quality DN3D SP map.

[Sang]

Originally Posted by blizzart

The Roch maps are not made by Sang.

Hehe, I wish they were

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

Sang, your reaction to my posts make it seem as if you are the one who made ROCH and are offended by me...if that is the case I did not mean to offend. I am brutaly honest when it come to reviewing games, but would you want it any other way?

The thing is the stuff you criticise either doesn't make sense or you're forgetting that it's a 12-year-old game.

Also you mentioned you're not being destructive but actually you are - you keep giving lame criticism (that you wouldn't give if you'd actually use Build yourself) without saying anything really positive or offering (non-vague) suggestions.

[DeeperThought]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

It has dropped to a real score of 72/100, and that is only IF I could ever find the yellow keycard...which I won't

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

I have an uncanny ability to notice details that many others might miss.

I guess your uncanny eye for details doesn't extend to finding keycards, eh?

This is actually a pretty entertaining thread. I think I know the kind of map you want. You want an action based map without a lot of backtracking or searches for hidden keycards and buttons. And of course, solid construction and gameplay. I don't remember Gotham having any hard to find keys, though . Maybe you would like Another Timeless Night, by Alejandro Glavic, or some of the other maps I mentioned earlier (but then again, those keycards might frusrate you, I don't know). Or, you could play randomly through 70 maps.

[Blue Lightning]

Originally Posted by DeeperThought

I guess your uncanny eye for details doesn't extend to finding keycards, eh?

Heh, well it would help if the card actually is findable!

Originally Posted by DeeperThought

This is actually a pretty entertaining thread. I think I know the kind of map you want. You want an action based map without a lot of backtracking or searches for hidden keycards and buttons. And of course, solid construction and gameplay.

Well, it's not just what I want, but what (in my opinion) makes an SP map, a "pro map". It's what makes for a thuroughly enjoyable gameplay experience. Gotham had a good shot since it was wide open. It's nice to get to choose from 3 or even 4 different directions you can go (that all end up in the same place). Gives you the feeling that your really in control of your own desteny, and makes you think about what kind of stratagy you would like to emplore. Unfortianatly however, Gotham has some issues that killed it...but man, that could of been a great map.

Trying out other maps now. Snowbase is far too linear, it will be a no-go. Moonbase seems much the same, although I am still testing it. And Traffic...well it is much to early to even judge it yet.

Originally Posted by Sang

The thing is the stuff you criticise either doesn't make sense or you're forgetting that it's a 12-year-old game

Doesn't matter the games age. A well built level is a well built level. Has nothing at all to do with a games age.

[Sang]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

Doesn't matter the games age. A well built level is a well built level. Has nothing at all to do with a games age.

Durh - The game's age does come into play when you complain about stuff like "cars that drive themselves".

[Mikko Sandt]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

The author has made this part too difficult, and there is no walkthrough text in the folder. If there is no way to advance, I will send Gotham to the recycle bin, and sigh knowing that what I said all along must still be the case.

If I remember right, that's Daniel Aashage's map. There are several of his maps in the pack (at least Neliex, Warehouse and One2Zero) and they're all pretty difficult. Gotham is the easiest of them.

[Sang]

In any case BL, it seems you don't like to, you know, actually look for stuff and think about things - and I'm sorry for pimping my own maps here - you should try out Battlefield 3.. 3 maps with plenty of alien asses to kick. I have the impression you can't go without an alien to kill for one minute so perhaps that's more up your alley.

[Radar1013]

Play Red3, 4 , and 5. They don't have hard to find keycards and they have solid gameplay if you like horror.


Also, have you played more through Roch yet? Seriously, those maps are legendary and have some good puzzles. But i geuss you don't like them.

And what do you mean that 3DR's maps don't have hard to find keycards? The first time i played the game it stumped me in a lot of places, and not everything is easy to find. And if everything was so easy, than there would be no challenge. Some things need to be challenging or else it equals into a boring game where you've already seen everything and it's just the same thing over and over. Just look at the Halo series, for example.

[Blue Lightning]

Originally Posted by Sang

Durh - The game's age does come into play when you complain about stuff like "cars that drive themselves".

From what I can see, those "cars" in Gotham were besicaly the models taken from the Atomic level "Babe Land", in which case the "car' was NOT driving itself, but rather it was an amusment ride that was "floating in the waters current" around in circles...

Originally Posted by Radar1013

Play Red3, 4 , and 5. They don't have hard to find keycards and they have solid gameplay if you like horror.


Also, have you played more through Roch yet? Seriously, those maps are legendary and have some good puzzles. But i geuss you don't like them.

The ROCH maps are gone. The level design was a mess and didn't feel like it made a lot of sense. Props and even buildings were just placed "here and there" just for the sake of making more routes, without having to make sense.

Originally Posted by Radar1013

And what do you mean that 3DR's maps don't have hard to find keycards? The first time i played the game it stumped me in a lot of places, and not everything is easy to find. And if everything was so easy, than there would be no challenge. Some things need to be challenging or else it equals into a boring game where you've already seen everything and it's just the same thing over and over. Just look at the Halo series, for example.

I like looking for things...that are findable. I don't mind quiet periods of a map, and in fact that is a crucial part of a good map. What I don't like, is not knowing where to go, and an hour later STILL not knowing where to go. That kind pace-stopping gameplay will get a map to my recycle bin real quick.

Balance...that's the key.

[ZuljinRaynor]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

The ROCH maps are gone. The level design was a mess and didn't feel like it made a lot of sense. Props and even buildings were just placed "here and there" just for the sake of making more routes, without having to make sense.

How many of them did you play? The first map is clearly the worse but the later ones like ROCH5 and ROCH6. The level design didn't make sense? I can understand if that's what you think for the first ROCH map but the others aren't like that.

[Quakis]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

The ROCH maps are gone. The level design was a mess and didn't feel like it made a lot of sense. Props and even buildings were just placed "here and there" just for the sake of making more routes, without having to make sense.

I completely agree. Here are some images to back up this fine argument, ladies and gentlemen;



This man speaks many truths. Blue is wise and all knowing. He didn't even have to play any further than the first level to come to such a conclusion!