A.I. Really Important ??

infowars · 07-01-2006, 01:31 AM

George back in 2001 said something along the lines of

someone find this...)

I believe AI is over rated and is not very important to a game...(rough quote...)

Does anyone else agree with this statement about games??
I Hope not! In Doom 3, John Carmick(sp?) sound something similar about A.I. , and THAT game had god awful boring bots for enemies that just ran at you...NO Intelligence what so ever..

How do you want the AI to be in DNF?

AI meaning... the enemies 'abilites' and 'capabilities' rather then, how HARD or FAST , or how ACCURATE a shooter they are. IMO, those things are affected by the 'difficulty setting' selected at the start of the game...but the enemies ABILITIES, such as, pick things up, using the things around him as tools/weapons...enemies aware of the things he actually sees around him...can move stuff to change the enviroment, and so on.....
___________________________________________

In Duke3d, you could have SOME fun with fighting the enemies, but I'd like to see this aspect of the game expanded in DNF!

Maybe during gunfights they 'do stuff' and are more interactive during fight scenes...

things simple like....

fighting a pig cop mutant, He takes cover behind his squad car and grabs the cb radio off his shoulder strap and SQUEALS for backup! but a creepy squeal...

And continues to fire at you....and cheers when he hits you...or a sinister pig laugh...BUT main point being...the pig cop will have like 30 different random things he CAN do during gunfights, instead of the same 2 over and over...

Thats an ass load better then just fighting mindless enemies just ran at you full speed...no skill, no methods...one after the other...BORING ....YAWN....and always seeing the same 3 different attack animations over and over again!

thoughts?
[or did that make no sense?]

Micki! · 07-01-2006, 01:57 AM

This is how i WANT DNF enemies to react in certain moments:

- They should know when they are in danger (when shooting a RPG rocket towrds an Octabrain while it SEES me doing so, i expects it to avoid it, if it is fast enough, say, if i fired from a distance, then it should avoid it, with no problems)

- Heavy damage should make them "think clearer" (massively damaging an enemy, who has the chance of going for a run, should get the hell away from Duke, and either find a hiding place to surprise with an attack, or find health... The enemies in Prey do this as well...)

- No team plays and stuff (Enemies shouldn't care much about working as a team... It's a bunch of egoestic alien scum anyways)

- Be affraid of hazards (avoiding hot steam, or fire etc, and instead find an alternate way of getting you, or fire through it...)

I'm not expecting the next FEAR with DNF though... Just some basics for AI... (Doom 3 was more like "Artificial Reactions" rather than "intelligence")

brabee · 07-01-2006, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infowars

Does anyone else agree with this statement about games??
I Hope not! In Doom 3, John Carmick(sp?) sound something similar about A.I. , and THAT game had god awful boring bots for enemies that just ran at you...NO Intelligence what so ever..

Ehm... what would you expect from zombies or imps?

But still I agree - I loved fighting enemies in FEAR or Far Cry... or the infamous special forces in Half-Life... Its totally different experience and I like the feeling of outsmarting enemies rather than just smashing them to pieces... (althoough, theres nothing better than outsmarting AND smashing the opponent...

)

Anyway, I think there should be some moderately inteligent enemies as well as some special forces - Pig cops could do do job very well I think in the way you've suggested

peoplessi · 07-01-2006, 03:39 AM

It doesn't fit in DNF that every pig cop is a tactical mastermind, stay behind walls/debris all the time and shoot only when it can't be shot back. For to bosses, sure I hope they have a more better AI but that is a given. AI matters, are they believable(grhmm

or not, but it not something that is thing that sells. AI is not only related to combat, but during combat and off combat, the enemies should have some short "conversations" or commucation during battle. Even if only for towards the player.

IF the enemies shoot back, really good, how will you beat 'em? Think 1v10 dm, it destroys the gameflow if you get stuck in one position for 30mins, and load/save rumble is on.

We will see when the game comes out.

trackit · 07-01-2006, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micki!

This is how i WANT DNF enemies to react in certain moments:

- They should know when they are in danger (when shooting a RPG rocket towrds an Octabrain while it SEES me doing so, i expects it to avoid it, if it is fast enough, say, if i fired from a distance, then it should avoid it, with no problems)

acutally i hate that in games when i through a grenade at some enemy and he yells "grenade" and runs away before it explodes

it pisses me off

brabee · 07-01-2006, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peoplessi

It doesn't fit in DNF that every pig cop is a tactical mastermind, stay behind walls/debris all the time and shoot only when it can't be shot back.

By "special forces" I mean unit that wont run to to you shooting, but use some cover, suppresing fire, call for backup and things like that...
I think that Half-Llife had probably the best set of enemis ever - some alien scum and the soldiers & SF, who cooperated and stuff...
Also, I remember that many times I run into pack of enemies, every each one of them started to behave independently (Im talking about aliens) which was so cool

FireFly · 07-01-2006, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infowars

George back in 2001 said something along the lines of

someone find this...)

I believe AI is over rated and is not very important to a game...(rough quote...)

What he actually said was:

"Everyone overhypes AI, ya know? All we want to do is provide bad guys that are interesting to fight, and that's don't do dumb things (run into walls, or other glaring errors). In this day and age, flocking, squad behavior and the rest, are all pretty common place."

http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/499/499994p1.html

He's indicating that DNF will feature advanced A.I features like squad behavior, but at the same time claiming that what's important is that the enemies are interesting to fight (i.e they have different behaviours rather than just more advanced A.I routines). Not so different from your point, eh?

Micki! · 07-01-2006, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trackit

acutally i hate that in games when i through a grenade at some enemy and he yells "grenade" and runs away before it explodes

it pisses me off

Yeah, but grenades can also be overseen in the heat of battle...

I mean, if someone fires a big ass rockets straight towards your direction, you'd at least try to avoid it...

vcxzet · 07-01-2006, 08:45 AM

ai is useless; enemies can just strafe around you while firing! :P

Commando Nukem · 07-01-2006, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micki!

Yeah, but grenades can also be overseen in the heat of battle...

I mean, if someone fires a big ass rockets straight towards your direction, you'd at least try to avoid it...

Nah, i'd stand there like a jackass and yell "SHIIIIIEEEEEEEEET!!!!!!!!!!" Jim Carrey Style.

Micki! · 07-01-2006, 03:01 PM

^^
But that's in Multiplayer...

Danule · 07-01-2006, 03:21 PM

i hope they have some fun interesting AI, i really hate boring gun fights. Being able to outsmart an intellegent enemy in my opinion is one of the highlights of gaming.

The Red Slaughter · 07-01-2006, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by peoplessi
It doesn't fit in DNF that every pig cop is a tactical mastermind, stay behind walls/debris all the time and shoot only when it can't be shot back.

By "special forces" I mean unit that wont run to to you shooting, but use some cover, suppresing fire, call for backup and things like that...
I think that Half-Llife had probably the best set of enemis ever - some alien scum and the soldiers & SF, who cooperated and stuff...
Also, I remember that many times I run into pack of enemies, every each one of them started to behave independently (Im talking about aliens) which was so cool

I think that the enemies should fight was a team. Say, you find a Pig Cop and Two Troopers. The Pig goes for cover and tries to hit Duke, but misses and duck. The Troopers teleport behind Duke and Duke was to fight them while the Pig SQUEALS for help. Duke kick the troopers ass and faces the cop. Just when he kill him, three pigcops come to fight Duke and Troopers began to teleport nearby.

Strafing is a must. Say, you fire a big ass rocket at a Pig Cop. He ducks the rocket and tries to shot you, but you go for cover. The pig calls the other aliens to flank you while he go right in the front of Duke. Duke tries to hit him with a pistol, but he strafe and throws a grenade against Duke. The aliens go away. Duke go away too. The monsters atack again, one going to flank, other flying and the pig charges at Duke. Things like that. I want fast, intelligent enemies that can strafe and coordinate atacks. The AI from Half-Life and Halo was something close of what I want.

Addicted Gamer · 07-01-2006, 03:27 PM

Stalker development team planned at the beggining non-scripted A.I. which, unfortunately, occured "illogical". well, it can't be 100% non-scripted, because it's just like the enemy just stands afore you and it doesn't have to do anything - free movement/thinking basically.

but, Stalker's AI would've be cool tho. too bad the publisher screwed it up.

Micki! · 07-01-2006, 03:32 PM

I must agree with the Strafing part...
It seems like the AI is alot more flexible in battle... I like the idea of that...

the true duke · 07-01-2006, 04:13 PM

well really the aliens must have evolve or something, i mean every duke game (almost every) featured the same aliens and they all did the same thing. shoot at you move a little to left or right and shoot agian.

duke nukem 3d wasnt all that difficult even on the hardest of levels. you knew what the enemy does and thefore you took them out with ease. i mean if the pigcop does hide behind a barrel or a wall wouldnt the whole mega interactivity and destruction of levels put things at odds agian. shooting away the wall chiiping it and destroying it killing the pigcop.

plus at the start pf the game there pretty basic ai but as you progress through the game they get tougher and tougher and fend for themselfs. like having a battlelord and ass-load of pigcops (or some other one) in a room, when the battlelord spots you he shoots at you but hits some of the pigcops. the pigcops retaliate and shoot at the battlelord leaving you to see them kill eachother.

like doom, which was a badass game.

The Red Slaughter · 07-01-2006, 04:26 PM

Monster infighting? Huuummm... It is a little stupid. Serious. I mean, unless the two foes have a mutual hate and just fight duke because that's their common cause.

trackit · 07-01-2006, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Red Slaughter

Strafing is a must. Say, you fire a big ass rocket at a Pig Cop. He ducks the rocket and tries to shot you, but you go for cover. The pig calls the other aliens to flank you while he go right in the front of Duke. Duke tries to hit him with a pistol, but he strafe and throws a grenade against Duke. The aliens go away. Duke go away too. The monsters atack again, one going to flank, other flying and the pig charges at Duke. Things like that. I want fast, intelligent enemies that can strafe and coordinate atacks. The AI from Half-Life and Halo was something close of what I want.

see this is again one of those ideas that is cool "on paper" but belive me, you really dont want too "intelligent" enemies, it will be just frustrating

you can get yout "intelligent" part in multplayer

Commando Nukem · 07-01-2006, 05:07 PM

Agreed trackit. It would also make scripted events very out of place and hard to implement with enemies. Suddenly the enemy does something that it shoudn't do at the right time. It requires more and more coding to make sure the enemies DON'T do certain things at certain times. A simple one is making sure an enemy doesn't strafe off a platform. A simpler example though.

the true duke · 07-01-2006, 05:19 PM

that is a little funny, when the monster falls duke should say something like "what a dumbass".

Commando Nukem · 07-01-2006, 05:22 PM

"I guess pigs do fly!" - Duke Nukem Time To Kill.

Magnamuz · 07-01-2006, 11:48 PM

When shooting, being the only thing you do with aliens, the best part of AI here is watching how they react to damage, like quoting, screaming, making faces and giving the finger, things like that.
A good one is grabbing the injured part, that reflects location damage very well.

To watch someone suffering is very pleasing (disserving it), and better if it is intelligently suffered.

AnnihilatorZa · 07-02-2006, 12:48 AM

What I find realy anoying in games is when you see a number of enemys standing together and blow the ones head off with a huge ass sniper rifle from like 10 meters away and his buddys dont even flinch or they go up to the body and look at it while its got no head.

If I was standing there and my buddys head just exploded next to me, no way in hell am I going to be standing there for another 1 second let alone go look at the dead guy.

I dont know about you guys but that kinda makes sense to me.

In the 2001 video duke had awesome regional based damage a pipe bomb was blown up above a guy and it took off just his torso which is a great effect not for the squimsh though

Malgon · 07-02-2006, 05:47 AM

I want A.I. that obviously can charge forward, run back and take cover and all sorts, but I'd like the A.I. to be fallible to the point that they do miss you on occasion. They should be able able to use objects and their surroundings to their advantage rather than just taking pot-shots and standing in packs doing nothing.
Each enemy has it's own behaviour so a Pig Cop should be distinguishable in it's thinking than from say an Octabrain. On that note I think the Octabrain should be able to telekinetically manipulate objects around it, like triggering security systems, throwing random items to distract you, psi-blast friendlies and turn them against you and stuff like that. That would follow along Georges quote of fighting against interesting enemies rather than just intelligent enemies, as of course a Pig Cop should be stupider than an Octabrain. That's my opinon anyway.

the true duke · 07-02-2006, 06:43 AM

ok other than that of getting behind cover what about when you kill a enemy it has a last chance pot shot, like pigcop lying on ground and shoots one last shot, or when you kill a battelord he lets loose one last gernade. or something like a self-destruct.

quake 2 had those like when you killed that brain thing it tries to put itself back togethor but dies anyway.

something along the lines of that.

07-01-2006, 01:31 AM	#1
infowars	A.I. Really Important ?? George back in 2001 said something along the lines ofsomeone find this...) I believe AI is over rated and is not very important to a game...(rough quote...) Does anyone else agree with this statement about games?? I Hope not! In Doom 3, John Carmick(sp?) sound something similar about A.I. , and THAT game had god awful boring bots for enemies that just ran at you...NO Intelligence what so ever.. How do you want the AI to be in DNF? AI meaning... the enemies 'abilites' and 'capabilities' rather then, how HARD or FAST , or how ACCURATE a shooter they are. IMO, those things are affected by the 'difficulty setting' selected at the start of the game...but the enemies ABILITIES, such as, pick things up, using the things around him as tools/weapons...enemies aware of the things he actually sees around him...can move stuff to change the enviroment, and so on..... ___________________________________________ In Duke3d, you could have SOME fun with fighting the enemies, but I'd like to see this aspect of the game expanded in DNF! Maybe during gunfights they 'do stuff' and are more interactive during fight scenes... things simple like.... fighting a pig cop mutant, He takes cover behind his squad car and grabs the cb radio off his shoulder strap and SQUEALS for backup! but a creepy squeal... And continues to fire at you....and cheers when he hits you...or a sinister pig laugh...BUT main point being...the pig cop will have like 30 different random things he CAN do during gunfights, instead of the same 2 over and over... Thats an ass load better then just fighting mindless enemies just ran at you full speed...no skill, no methods...one after the other...BORING ....YAWN....and always seeing the same 3 different attack animations over and over again! thoughts? [or did that make no sense?]

07-01-2006, 01:57 AM	#2
Micki!	Re: A.I. Really Important ?? This is how i WANT DNF enemies to react in certain moments: - They should know when they are in danger (when shooting a RPG rocket towrds an Octabrain while it SEES me doing so, i expects it to avoid it, if it is fast enough, say, if i fired from a distance, then it should avoid it, with no problems) - Heavy damage should make them "think clearer" (massively damaging an enemy, who has the chance of going for a run, should get the hell away from Duke, and either find a hiding place to surprise with an attack, or find health... The enemies in Prey do this as well...) - No team plays and stuff (Enemies shouldn't care much about working as a team... It's a bunch of egoestic alien scum anyways) - Be affraid of hazards (avoiding hot steam, or fire etc, and instead find an alternate way of getting you, or fire through it...) I'm not expecting the next FEAR with DNF though... Just some basics for AI... (Doom 3 was more like "Artificial Reactions" rather than "intelligence") __________________ A true genius does not need boundaries such as 'common sense'

07-01-2006, 03:39 AM	#4
peoplessi	Re: A.I. Really Important ?? It doesn't fit in DNF that every pig cop is a tactical mastermind, stay behind walls/debris all the time and shoot only when it can't be shot back. For to bosses, sure I hope they have a more better AI but that is a given. AI matters, are they believable(grhmm or not, but it not something that is thing that sells. AI is not only related to combat, but during combat and off combat, the enemies should have some short "conversations" or commucation during battle. Even if only for towards the player. IF the enemies shoot back, really good, how will you beat 'em? Think 1v10 dm, it destroys the gameflow if you get stuck in one position for 30mins, and load/save rumble is on. We will see when the game comes out. __________________ Duke Nukem Forever Who am I to judge?

07-01-2006, 08:45 AM	#9
vcxzet	Re: A.I. Really Important ?? ai is useless; enemies can just strafe around you while firing! :P

07-01-2006, 03:01 PM	#11
Micki!	Re: A.I. Really Important ?? ^^ But that's in Multiplayer... __________________ A true genius does not need boundaries such as 'common sense'

07-01-2006, 03:21 PM	#12
Danule	Re: A.I. Really Important ?? i hope they have some fun interesting AI, i really hate boring gun fights. Being able to outsmart an intellegent enemy in my opinion is one of the highlights of gaming. __________________ is it weird when a psychonaut plays psychonauts?

07-01-2006, 03:27 PM	#14
Addicted Gamer	Re: A.I. Really Important ?? Stalker development team planned at the beggining non-scripted A.I. which, unfortunately, occured "illogical". well, it can't be 100% non-scripted, because it's just like the enemy just stands afore you and it doesn't have to do anything - free movement/thinking basically. but, Stalker's AI would've be cool tho. too bad the publisher screwed it up.

07-01-2006, 03:32 PM	#15
Micki!	Re: A.I. Really Important ?? I must agree with the Strafing part... It seems like the AI is alot more flexible in battle... I like the idea of that... __________________ A true genius does not need boundaries such as 'common sense'

07-01-2006, 04:13 PM	#16
the true duke	Re: A.I. Really Important ?? well really the aliens must have evolve or something, i mean every duke game (almost every) featured the same aliens and they all did the same thing. shoot at you move a little to left or right and shoot agian. duke nukem 3d wasnt all that difficult even on the hardest of levels. you knew what the enemy does and thefore you took them out with ease. i mean if the pigcop does hide behind a barrel or a wall wouldnt the whole mega interactivity and destruction of levels put things at odds agian. shooting away the wall chiiping it and destroying it killing the pigcop. plus at the start pf the game there pretty basic ai but as you progress through the game they get tougher and tougher and fend for themselfs. like having a battlelord and ass-load of pigcops (or some other one) in a room, when the battlelord spots you he shoots at you but hits some of the pigcops. the pigcops retaliate and shoot at the battlelord leaving you to see them kill eachother. like doom, which was a badass game.

07-01-2006, 04:26 PM	#17
The Red Slaughter	Re: A.I. Really Important ?? Monster infighting? Huuummm... It is a little stupid. Serious. I mean, unless the two foes have a mutual hate and just fight duke because that's their common cause.

07-01-2006, 05:07 PM	#19
Commando Nukem	Re: A.I. Really Important ?? Agreed trackit. It would also make scripted events very out of place and hard to implement with enemies. Suddenly the enemy does something that it shoudn't do at the right time. It requires more and more coding to make sure the enemies DON'T do certain things at certain times. A simple one is making sure an enemy doesn't strafe off a platform. A simpler example though. __________________ Open Maw Productions

07-01-2006, 05:19 PM	#20
the true duke	Re: A.I. Really Important ?? that is a little funny, when the monster falls duke should say something like "what a dumbass".

07-01-2006, 05:22 PM	#21
Commando Nukem	Re: A.I. Really Important ?? "I guess pigs do fly!" - Duke Nukem Time To Kill. __________________ Open Maw Productions

07-01-2006, 11:48 PM	#22
Magnamuz	Re: A.I. Really Important ?? When shooting, being the only thing you do with aliens, the best part of AI here is watching how they react to damage, like quoting, screaming, making faces and giving the finger, things like that. A good one is grabbing the injured part, that reflects location damage very well. To watch someone suffering is very pleasing (disserving it), and better if it is intelligently suffered. __________________ . BEST GOAL EVER!!!

07-02-2006, 12:48 AM	#23
AnnihilatorZa	Re: A.I. Really Important ?? What I find realy anoying in games is when you see a number of enemys standing together and blow the ones head off with a huge ass sniper rifle from like 10 meters away and his buddys dont even flinch or they go up to the body and look at it while its got no head. If I was standing there and my buddys head just exploded next to me, no way in hell am I going to be standing there for another 1 second let alone go look at the dead guy. I dont know about you guys but that kinda makes sense to me. In the 2001 video duke had awesome regional based damage a pipe bomb was blown up above a guy and it took off just his torso which is a great effect not for the squimsh though __________________ Good Graphics do not make a good game cough Doom3 cough

07-02-2006, 05:47 AM	#24
Malgon	Re: A.I. Really Important ?? I want A.I. that obviously can charge forward, run back and take cover and all sorts, but I'd like the A.I. to be fallible to the point that they do miss you on occasion. They should be able able to use objects and their surroundings to their advantage rather than just taking pot-shots and standing in packs doing nothing. Each enemy has it's own behaviour so a Pig Cop should be distinguishable in it's thinking than from say an Octabrain. On that note I think the Octabrain should be able to telekinetically manipulate objects around it, like triggering security systems, throwing random items to distract you, psi-blast friendlies and turn them against you and stuff like that. That would follow along Georges quote of fighting against interesting enemies rather than just intelligent enemies, as of course a Pig Cop should be stupider than an Octabrain. That's my opinon anyway. __________________ -Most wanted games: Doom 4, Tomb Raider, Beyond Good and Evil 2

07-02-2006, 06:43 AM	#25
the true duke	Re: A.I. Really Important ?? ok other than that of getting behind cover what about when you kill a enemy it has a last chance pot shot, like pigcop lying on ground and shoots one last shot, or when you kill a battelord he lets loose one last gernade. or something like a self-destruct. quake 2 had those like when you killed that brain thing it tries to put itself back togethor but dies anyway. something along the lines of that.