I am never knowingly going to buy anything from Take 2 EVER again

[Blue Lightning]

George should of got the 5 million first, THEN did the audit on Take Two.

Hinesight = 20/20

[SplatterHappy]

Originally Posted by Blue Lightning

George should of got the 5 million first, THEN did the audit on Take Two.

Hinesight = 20/20

That took place back when 3DR still owned the Max Payne IP. They sold the rights to Take Two back in 2002. Still, the hindsight thing still applies to George stating publically that Take 2 should STFU.

Never burn a bridge if there's a chance in hell that you might have to cross it again someday.

[Drazula]

Originally Posted by Thriller

We shoudnt really know what side to support yet. I'm hoping to be able to take 3DRs side on this though.

Agreed. Even if both have valid arguments I would side with 3DR. But it is not looking good....

[SplatterHappy]

I would love to be a fly on the wall in that courtroom when the case comes up. It would be interesting to see what arguments each side comes up with.

[ShXIII]

Originally Posted by rgnjc

It is 3D Realms' fault and 3D Realms' fault alone that DNF was not completed after 12 years. They are the developers, and they were in full control of the progress and development of the game.

I'd like to know exactly what they did from day to day for 12 years. I've always suspected the "when its done" saying was avoidance behavior for not setting deadlines, and this whole fiasco is my proof. Frankly, I'm glad they went belly up, anybody who thinks they can "work" on something for 12 years without a product or progress deserves to be fired...and the reason for this mess was George Broussard for not being a good team leader/boss.

IMO, developing a game is not brain surgery, nor does it take 12 years when your JOB is developing games. In the grand scheme of things, in the fields of science and technology, far greater things are accomplished in far less time than it took them to produce nothing in 12 years. 3D Realms alone was responsible, and while I'm sure it would have been a great product, 12 years is a shameful and embarrassing amount of time.

It's good to read that there are people still on these forums and others that can see the truth

[lordlonelobo]

Originally Posted by SplatterHappy

Still, the hindsight thing still applies to George stating publically that Take 2 should STFU.

And, y'know... Switching engines twice.

[Blue Lightning]

Originally Posted by SplatterHappy

That took place back when 3DR still owned the Max Payne IP. They sold the rights to Take Two back in 2002. Still, the hindsight thing still applies to George stating publically that Take 2 should STFU.

I think the audit pissed off Take Two more than the STFU did...but who really knows? Both were "corrosive" to the relationship.

Originally Posted by SplatterHappy

Never burn a bridge if there's a chance in hell that you might have to cross it again someday.

Damn, I got me a new sig

[SplatterHappy]

LOL! Enjoy the sig, BL!

[Tualmasok]

Who needs a bridge when you got a jetpack?

[JamesCassidy]

I will side with 3DR

ShXIII, we all know the truth, but truth is not speculation...and truth always changes.

People knew that the earth was flat once and took that as truth, but we soon learned it was actually more round.

I will wait for DNF. I will wait forever if I have to regardless of what anyone says, does, or feels, or whatever they want to call me. Sticks and stones mate.

Stone and stones may break my bones, but my shotgun blows your brains out.

Call me foolish if you want, but when DNF comes out, I will be the one to say I told you so and victory seems ever more sweeter the more defeat you experience.

[SplatterHappy]

Originally Posted by lordlonelobo

And, y'know... Switching engines twice.

I know they switched from the Quake II engine to the Unreal 2 engine and have since modified it heavily. Was there some other switch I missed?

[Monkey Butler]

Quake 2 - Unreal - Unreal 2. One of the people who knows something about engines will probably be able to correct that though.

[Crosma]

Originally Posted by Monkey Butler

Quake 2 - Unreal - Unreal 2. One of the people who knows something about engines will probably be able to correct that though.

My understanding is that 3DR were on an Unreal subscription from some version of the first Unreal to some time around Unreal 2. So yeah. It's complicated.

They would've reached a breaking point on several occasions, where their old content wasn't making use of the newer features they were getting, or an update would've broken most of their stuff.

A long time ago, George said something about the UT engine being so much better than the Unreal engine that they had to switch, but it was painful. That type of thing probably happened a number of times over the development.

[lordlonelobo]

Originally Posted by SplatterHappy

I know they switched from the Quake II engine to the Unreal 2 engine and have since modified it heavily. Was there some other switch I missed?

Hum. TOW suggests they used Quake 2, and then switched to Unreal. They switched in 1998, or there abouts. UnrealEngine 2 came around between 2000 and 2002. TOW mentions they use an early version of Unreal Engine 2, and branched off around 2001. It's tough to say exactly how this would've affected them. The levels would have to be rebuilt if they switched from UE to UE2, if UE2 wasn't available in it's "Early form" in 1998.

[conantheking]

Sucks to be you topic creator.

*plays Bioshock*

[Babe]

Bioshock 2 gets an official launch-date

The wait is not over yet, but at least we've got something to grab on as Bioshock 2 finally got an official launch date. So US gamers will see it on November 3rd whereas the rest of the world will actually see the game a bit earlier on October 30th.

Unfortunately, while the official Bioshock outlet site reports that the game will simultaneously launch on PC, Xbox 360 and PS3, the publisher, Take-Two refused to confirm the platforms. Well, we might as well let them savor the moment, as we’re just glad that everything is on track for the launch.

Source: http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/13905/1/

Now gues what Take 2 People, you can suck my hairy balls, and I still wont purchase it. You said to hell with DNF, I say to hell with you.

[Drazula]

That's funny, since I'm sure all the 3DR guys are going to buy Bioshock 2.

[IceColdDuke]

Originally Posted by Drazula

That's funny, since I'm sure all the 3DR guys are going to buy Bioshock 2.

Me too actually : ), boycotting a company wont do anything cause im sure youll only be able to get like 10 people to actually do it :P.

[tazman]

I am quite baffled as to why so many people are sticking the boot in to take two?
Taketwo have basically said they will refuse to fund a game thats been in development hell for over 12 years and it has to be said - who can blame them.
Take two actually have a very good record or producing and releasing very very good and highly polished games.
I think the real problem is the develpment team have been trying to create some kind of video tech masterpeice which unfortuntly due to the time span is always going to be over taken by new and faster technology - hardware and software wise.
Its easy to say this with hind site of course but i think it would have been much better to expand the duke franchise with a new game released every 3 to 4 years which obviously would have kept the pennys rolling in for future duke games especally with the massive surge in the console market.
In may ways i do feel sorry for 3d realms as i think they have honestly tried to produce something very special in to the games market.
As for all the people blasting take two - sorry to say this but you really should blasting 3drealms - in the twelve years thats passed 4 very good games could have been released and 3d realms would have been in a much rosier future than it is now.
I am not flaming - i am not blaming - I am merlry pointing out that before you point fingers - you really should take the time and care to think about what you are saying?

[Caine]

i dunno about take 2 but all i know is 3drealms sucks, hope they can make it better...

[jet jaguar 2.0]

I'm on Take 2's side in this. They paid $12 million for publishing rights. 3DR has had 12 years to complete the game. If I paid $12 million for the rights to publish a game and yet the developer still has nothing substantial to show after 12 years I'd be pissed too. That's money that investors are getting no return on. Sure investing is a risk but it's downright criminal the way 3DR has conducted itself regarding DNF's development. Sue away Take 2, DNF is dead anyway.

If 3DR somehow survives this they will be the company I will never knowingly buy a game from...until they deliver a true DN3D sequel. I have no problem with Take 2. They're the only responsible-acting adults in this mess.

[Drazula]

Those blaming Take 2 for DNF's cancellation: do you also blame Take 2 for the 12 years of DNF development? Because if 3DR had finished in say, 10 years, DNF would be out and there would be nothing to cancel.

In the right hands Duke Nukem is a billion dollar franchise. 3DR is obviously the wrong hands.

[SplatterHappy]

Originally Posted by Drazula

Those blaming Take 2 for DNF's cancellation: do you also blame Take 2 for the 12 years of DNF development? Because if 3DR had finished in say, 10 years, DNF would be out and there would be nothing to cancel.

Nope, the blame for the long dev cycle is purely on 3DR's head. They made plenty of mistakes along the way and have freely admitted to them.

I do blame Take 2 for fundamentally altering the deal they made with 3DR back in July of 2008 and attempting to acquire the IP at a rock bottom fire sale price. IMO it was an underhanded thing to do. That's as bad as committing accounting fraud to short the dollar amounts due to your partners. Oh wait.. they did that too.. and 3D Realms was one of the partners getting screwed out of money! Imagine that from such a fine upstanding company as Take 2. <note sarcasm here>

Your last sentence is as obvious as a billboard saying "If you lived here, you'd be home now".

Yes, 3D Realms made plenty of mistakes along the way and development time went way beyond reason, but that doesn't make Take Two's trying to steal the franchise away in the 9th inning stretch right, IMO.

[Drazula]

Using the logic of your last sentence, someone buying stocks or homes during bad economic times is doing wrong as well. Duke is valueless in 3DRs hands. What good is an IP if the only thing you can do with it is make phone apps? If Take 2 can put life into Duke and maybe employ some of the great guys 3DR dumped, I say go Take 2. In the right hands the Duke IP means jobs in the game industry.

I back the content creators (employees that were let go thanks to GBs failure) over owners/management any day.

[Razorback]

Originally Posted by Drazula

I back the content creators (employees that were let go thanks to GBs failure) over owners/management any day.

Yes that is the sad part of it all. Some of these folks put in hours/years into this project (at least that's what we think) and now have nothing to show for it. Can't use DNF work for their resume. What a lose of time and effort.

Well at least they got paid, or did they?

[SplatterHappy]

Originally Posted by Drazula

Using the logic of your last sentence, someone buying stocks or homes during bad economic times is doing wrong as well. Duke is valueless in 3DRs hands. What good is an IP if the only thing you can do with it is make phone apps? If Take 2 can put life into Duke and maybe employ some of the great guys 3DR dumped, I say go Take 2. In the right hands the Duke IP means jobs in the game industry.

I back the content creators (employees that were let go thanks to GBs failure) over owners/management any day.

So you're saying that if you created a video game character, made a game, licensed that character out so that several other developers could make games based on the character over the years, and you still had residuals from all that coming out, plus you were in the process of completing another game based on the character yourself, if someone tried to take the intellectual property rights for the character away from you, you'd be okay with that? Riiight.

That'd be like Marvel trying to take the rights for Superman away from DC...

I'd also like to point out that, as far as we know, all the developers who've been let go are still going to get a share in the profits of DNF if it's ever released. Until some of them or someone still at 3DR chimes in on that subject, it's a moot point.

[The Count]

Originally Posted by SplatterHappy

So you're saying that if you created a video game character, made a game, licensed that character out so that several other developers could make games based on the character over the years, and you still had residuals from all that coming out, plus you were in the process of completing another game based on the character yourself, if someone tried to take the intellectual property rights for the character away from you, you'd be okay with that? Riiight.

That'd be like Marvel trying to take the rights for Superman away from DC...

DC didn't go bankrupt while being obliged to deliver a comic book for marvel...

SH, the fact remains that 3DR screwed up in the first place. They decided to have a risky and strained relationship with Take 2 and keep their business partner in the dark about DNF like anybody else because they couldn't think of a situation that one day might occur and that a clever manager should take preparations for: the independent game developer couldn't keep the "suits" at arms length anymore, instead it would need urgent financial help from them. Too late for making friends, I think.
I'm not a Take 2-fan. I am frustrated because 3DR has failed to deliver a new first-person Duke Nukem-game for more than 12 years now.
It MIGHT be the case that 3DR this time actually could have completed the game with new fundings in the near future. But the true status of the game when the developers were let go has not been officially stated yet. I hope the coming trial in New York will finally clarify some things for good and somebody will pick up this build and finish it.
Duke deserves it. Time slips away.

[jaimie10]

Originally Posted by SplatterHappy

Nope, the blame for the long dev cycle is purely on 3DR's head. They made plenty of mistakes along the way and have freely admitted to them.

I do blame Take 2 for fundamentally altering the deal they made with 3DR back in July of 2008 and attempting to acquire the IP at a rock bottom fire sale price. IMO it was an underhanded thing to do. That's as bad as committing accounting fraud to short the dollar amounts due to your partners. Oh wait.. they did that too.. and 3D Realms was one of the partners getting screwed out of money! Imagine that from such a fine upstanding company as Take 2. <note sarcasm here>

Your last sentence is as obvious as a billboard saying "If you lived here, you'd be home now".

Yes, 3D Realms made plenty of mistakes along the way and development time went way beyond reason, but that doesn't make Take Two's trying to steal the franchise away in the 9th inning stretch right, IMO.

The ironic thing is, if T2 had acquired the IP for DNF, we'd be playing it a lot sooner that if it was left up to 3DR.

[IceColdDuke]

Originally Posted by jaimie10

The ironic thing is, if T2 had acquired the IP for DNF, we'd be playing it a lot sooner that if it was left up to 3DR.

But than again it would be like an RA3 :|.

[SplatterHappy]

Originally Posted by The Count

DC didn't go bankrupt while being obliged to deliver a comic book for marvel...

3D Realms didn't go bankrupt. They couldn't afford to fun full scale development anymore since Take Two apparently went back on their word, but that's far from being bankrupt. I'd say GB pulled the plug on development to PREVENT the company from going bankrupt, if anything.

Depending on the outcome of the court case, it's just a matter of working out a deal for alternative funding with someone else (presumably for a cut of the profits.. although trying to get funding with their reputation is going to be an entire different matter).

I'm sure full details on the whole sordid story will come out once the court case is through. I for one would like to know the exact wording was of the deal 3DR and Take Two made last July, as I think it's going to be one of the pivotal points of the case.

---------- Post added at 09:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 PM ----------

Originally Posted by jaimie10

The ironic thing is, if T2 had acquired the IP for DNF, we'd be playing it a lot sooner that if it was left up to 3DR.

Sans strippers and any nudity, with a few of the racier quotes dubbed over no doubt, and with much suckage added.

[dognose]

I will never give take 2 a penny of my money.

[prophecy holder]

Originally Posted by IceColdDuke

But than again it would be like an RA3 :|.

I enjoyed Red alert 3, Tim curry was excellent in the game. When I saw the back of the box I thought the scientist was Chevy chase lol. Idc who makes DNF as long as I get to play it, I'm one of those normal gamers who buys a game and enjoys it. Not one of those really weird ones that loves the game so much they will only love games from that one company and scoff at other games for no reason, then will attack anyone viciously who says something negative about the game and it's designers.

[Drazula]

Originally Posted by SplatterHappy

So you're saying that if you created a video game character, made a game, licensed that character out so that several other developers could make games based on the character over the years, and you still had residuals from all that coming out, plus you were in the process of completing another game based on the character yourself, if someone tried to take the intellectual property rights for the character away from you, you'd be okay with that? Riiight.

You left out a part. If I had not done anything with the IP over a decade and someone offered me more money from than I have made from it in the last 12 years, hell yeah I'd sell the IP.

That'd be like Marvel trying to take the rights for Superman away from DC...

Let's use this analogy right. Duke was born in 92 and disappeared in 97, roughly 6 years. It has has been 12 years since then, which is twice the IPs actual lifespan.

Superman appeared in 1938, roughly 71 years ago. So if DC stopped everything about Superman today, twice the IP lifespan is 142 years.

So let's restate your premise correctly. If Superman disappeared today, and Marvel wanted the IP in the year 2151, how much do you think it would be worth after not being seen for 142 years? Go dig up a character that hasn't been mentioned since 1867 and see how much that would be worth.

The Duke IP value diminishes everyday it is not used.

I'd also like to point out that, as far as we know, all the developers who've been let go are still going to get a share in the profits of DNF if it's ever released.

And that is the saddest part. Part of their pay was suppose to be the profits from DNF. They were essentially forced investors in the game. Now they get nothing.

[Kristian Joensen]

"Duke was born in 92 and disappeared in 97" That is wrong. That latest Duke game was released in 2005 and another one is coming later this year.

[wieder]

Originally Posted by SplatterHappy

I'd also like to point out that, as far as we know, all the developers who've been let go are still going to get a share in the profits of DNF if it's ever released. Until some of them or someone still at 3DR chimes in on that subject, it's a moot point.

I'd be VERY surprised if that were true. Typically in the industry when you leave or are let go from a company you are no longer a part of the profit sharing. Maybe that's something they would do special for the guys that were still there but I doubt it.

[gungriffon geona]

Originally Posted by Drazula

Using the logic of your last sentence, someone buying stocks or homes during bad economic times is doing wrong as well. Duke is valueless in 3DRs hands. What good is an IP if the only thing you can do with it is make phone apps? If Take 2 can put life into Duke and maybe employ some of the great guys 3DR dumped, I say go Take 2. In the right hands the Duke IP means jobs in the game industry.

I back the content creators (employees that were let go thanks to GBs failure) over owners/management any day.

The thing people saying this don't seem to realize is there's no life in being controlled by a corporate entity. they would entirely decimate whatever life there is in the franchise, similiar to what happened to Sonic by the point of Heroes. It would be an existence. An insignificant hollow shell for marketing purposes only, in which whatever wit and charm there came from it is purely coincidental, with all consistency dead by the end of the first game.

The other big thing about this is the fact that Take2 wouldn't give two shits about re-hiring the old staff to finish it, or doing anything in particular other than throw people and money at it and hope it sells. Nameless employees hired to do something they don't care about. Atleast with George at head, you could guarantee that atleast the right feel and structure is there, and it will be a proper Duke nukem game.


But like, everyone these days somehow creams their pants over EA's trivial garbage, so I guess it doesn't really matter if something has a soul or not!

[WoodenSword]

Originally Posted by wieder

I'd be VERY surprised if that were true. Typically in the industry when you leave or are let go from a company you are no longer a part of the profit sharing. Maybe that's something they would do special for the guys that were still there but I doubt it.

Yes that's true, and i guess they are already paid for their work but this is a very special case....If things go better for 3d realms and finally release DNF, or any other project that helps them get their feet back on the ground they will need something to lure many of their former developers back to the company...

[SplatterHappy]

Originally Posted by WoodenSword

Yes that's true, and i guess they are already paid for their work but this is a very special case....If things go better for 3d realms and finally release DNF, or any other project that helps them get their feet back on the ground they will need something to lure many of their former developers back to the company...

That's sort of what I was thinking.

Or maybe during that last (liquid?) lunch back in May, George might have struck a deal with the team.. something like "If/when we get funding to continue development, anyone who's willing to come back will be re-hired at their previous salary with full profit sharing reinstated."

That would at least be an incentive for those who've already gotten positions elsewhere to return. It's possible.

[wieder]

Who knows. I would imagine it's not even come up in discussion to be honest. Bigger fish to fry and *if* that circumstance were to emerge they could just make agreements then and there like any other re-hire situation would.

[Tea Monster]

"Re: I am never knowingly going to buy anything from Take 2 EVER again"

What would really suck2BU would be if they did (even several years from now) release DNF, or its successor (there will be one, someday, someone will make another Duke game).

Then lets see you not buy anything from them then!!!