New 'official' trailer is online - Page 2

Nessus · 10-09-2003, 07:51 AM

Anyone notice that when max was sniping with the scope that he was rapid firing? Looks like you have a semi auto sniper rifle or an automatic with a scope.

Burning Fish · 10-09-2003, 07:56 AM

"I lied to myself that it was over. It wasn't over... and it would get worse before the end."

"You can't run from your past"

"This is love. Love hurts. When you're looking down the barrel of a gun, time slows down..."

MAX PAYNE ALL THE WAY!!!

ADM · 10-09-2003, 08:02 AM

Quote:

You nearly had me convinced there, but try watching that part frame by frame. As Max gets up the camera follows, and you can clearly see that the room in the background is three dimensional (pay particular attention to the bottom part of the frame where Max stands up).

You know, the funny part is, if Max wasn't in the background as well, no-one would be overanalysing such a trivial thing as this.

Er, anyway; just goes to show what a good trailer this. Nice work!

Ahh you're right! I didn't see that, hmm unless it isn't a white board and it's another room with his pic plastered on the wall.

Which wouldn't really make sense. I guess we just have to wait till the game comes out to find out

Oh yeah but definitely an awesome trailer!

10-09-2003, 08:22 AM

Quote:

"This is love. Love hurts. When you're looking down the barrel of a gun, time slows down..."

The best trailer I've seen to date!

Great stuff dudes! And yes, the "This is love. Love hurts. When you're looking down the barrel of a gun, time slows down..." is such a definitive Max Payne kind of line. Shivers down my spine. Simply beautiful.

Cheers,

AJ

DelitaHex · 10-09-2003, 08:28 AM

I had ONE problem with the trailer... here I am... in awe... just... in awe. I can't believe for a second I had ever doupted this game. Thinking to myself, WHO CARES IF THAT STUPID GUN DOESN'T BOLT!!! GAHHH! I WANT MY PAYNE!!!!! PAYNE!!! I WANT TO HAVE YOUR CHILDREN! n' stuff like that...

Then all the sudden...

"RATED M! FOR MMMMMAAAATTTTUUUURRRREEE!!!"

So I was kinda like... WHA?!?!?!? Where did that come from?

Oh well, the trailer was too good for me to care at all... but I did think it was funny... I mean common...

MMMAAATTTUUURRREEE!!!!

"FOOOOOTBALLLLLLLLL!!!!!

...On a side note... I'm glad that they didn't release this trailer sooner... who can second me on that? I mean... we had to wait... what... 3 months after the trailer of Max Payne was made?

REMEDY!!!! TAKE THE PRIZE OF ACTION GAME OF THE YEAR! since HL2 prolly won't make it till Easter. YOU DESERVE IT ALREADY!!!! pWNAGE!!!!

spyderkiller420 · 10-09-2003, 08:55 AM

who gives a damn if its mature. im still gonna get it. evern tho im 14.

mad guy · 10-09-2003, 09:04 AM

Quote:

REMEDY!!!! TAKE THE PRIZE OF ACTION GAME OF THE YEAR! since HL2 prolly won't make it till Easter. YOU DESERVE IT ALREADY!!!! pWNAGE!!!!

´

Hell yes! they deserve it

!!!! this game is unfkingbelievable

needhelp · 10-09-2003, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Anyone notice that when max was sniping with the scope that he was rapid firing? Looks like you have a semi auto sniper rifle or an automatic with a scope.

I think it was the MP5 with scope. (could be wrong)

ADM · 10-09-2003, 09:16 AM

Delita: How much coke have you had? I mean after reading that..

Komb.at · 10-09-2003, 09:17 AM

What drew my attention was the "sexual content" line

KaiserSoze · 10-09-2003, 09:36 AM

O.M.G.

Best. Game. Trailer. Evar.

I'm on this quicker than a nekkid britney.

Joonas · 10-09-2003, 09:37 AM

Quote:

"I lied to myself that it was over. It wasn't over... and it would get worse before the end."

"You can't run from your past"

"This is love. Love hurts. When you're looking down the barrel of a gun, time slows down..."

MAX PAYNE ALL THE WAY!!!

... No words. "Max Payne. I envy your name." all the way...

The whole development team of Remedy Entertaintment, behold. You have the community. And that trailer shows some MAJOR improvement (except CLIPPING!!), thank you for this game.

I wrote that?

Joonas · 10-09-2003, 09:50 AM

Also, replying to my own post

, I encoded the full trailer to be 1280x720, same quality. 84,7 megs, anybody? *hint*

DelitaHex · 10-09-2003, 10:01 AM

I mean common... you know... FOOTBAAAAAAAAAL!!!!

For this who don't know, watch Family Guy, episode 1.

I just thought it was funny. I don't care that it was rated M for mature... it was just... "RATED M!!! FOR MAAAATTTTUUUURRREEE!!!"

L.J. · 10-09-2003, 10:11 AM

OH. WOW. Could a trailer be any better? Ummmmmmm..... No. I'm getting those familiar Max Payne feelings again. My thumbs are really itching to play on it now. I'd better go and do something boring before I have a heart attack...
But I live in the UK AND I need it on the PS2... I've gotta wait till DECEMBER!!!! PAH... Stupid PC's getting stuff first.

Don't worry, I'm not serious.

One thing that stuck out to me was when he said:
"You can't run from your past."
Could this mean that the story for Max 2 is DIRECTLY related to that of Max 1.

But now Remedy and Rockstar have cost my 100's of pounds.... I've gotta fix up the hole in the floor where my jaw dropped.

NICE WORK.

mullen · 10-09-2003, 10:13 AM

man, this video rocks so much i can't describe it! I can't wait for the game!! Because I am in the UK I have to wait longer aswell!

maxpayne.co.uk · 10-09-2003, 10:37 AM

^ I know how you feel

I'm not late to this thread, i've just been busy with college work and stuff, anyway nice trailer guys - lookin forward to playin the game.

absolutemaxpayne.co.uk has been updated with all the movies and whatnot, not that you guys havent seen them before.

P.S: 100th post! Yay!

Teoball · 10-09-2003, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Could this mean that the story for Max 2 is DIRECTLY related to that of Max 1.

The "OCTOBER 15, the story continues" kinda hints at it

FullMetalJacket · 10-09-2003, 10:57 AM

Quote:

but wtf is this? Max gets shot in the head?? :O:O

... twice.

Well, no. At the beginning the merc with nightvision goggles takes aim at Max with the Dragunov and then we hear the gunshot. It's possible Max did some kind of shootdodge before the bullet connected. Not exactly realistic, but...

And at the end, Max is clearly shot in the jaw. You can tell from the bullet's path and the way his head jerks to the side. Maybe that's in a dream sequence or something. Or maybe he'll have trouble talking for the rest of the game.

Oh, and when he fires rapidly with the scope, that is with the MP5. Although he couldn't actually aim with it because the stock was retracted, but...

MrUniq · 10-09-2003, 11:07 AM

Yea mp5 is friggin sweet....the ragdoll physics are incredible. When the bodies fly and hit objects it's totally realistic. I just gritted my teeth when i saw how that "guy" hit those boxes, and the merc hit the shelf, and how the bodies/heads just jerked around in explosions. You could see "see" the force of the impact.
And I like the character faces, especially Mona...she looks like she's always enthusiastic.

And about Max getting shot in the head....an old film cliche' is the bad guy never kills the hero when it makes since. They had him at gunpoint, probably was hit by a rubber bullet.

When this is show in movie theaters people are going to enjoy it.

Filmakers should seriously think about using ragdoll CG characters in their action scenes.

Joonas · 10-09-2003, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Also, replying to my own post

, I encoded the full trailer to be 1280x720, same quality. 84,7 megs, anybody? *hint*

Took some time, but the quality is about the same.

... and actually, if you view the trailer with Windows Media Player and slow the video down at the last "shot", where Max gets shot, you see, that before the "impact animations" is palyed, the bullet has disappeared.

MrUniq · 10-09-2003, 11:22 AM

wow you guys really pay attention to the smallest micro details....amazing. In reality u wouldn't even see the bullet :P. Theres only so much u can do with current 3d technology.

FullMetalJacket · 10-09-2003, 11:29 AM

Joonas,

The bullet probably disappears because it's supposed to be hitting him and there are no "squibs" in this game.

Gunrunner · 10-09-2003, 11:35 AM

i think that the bullet disapears because when they shoot at max the whole thing goes first to slow motion and just before the bullet hits him the time goes normal again and u cant see a bullet irl , can you?

FullMetalJacket · 10-09-2003, 11:37 AM

You can if it's standing still.

g.suarez · 10-09-2003, 12:11 PM

In response to Max being shot in the head in the trailer:

I was looking at the small library of game clips I have downloaded from IGN, and I noticed something interesting...

In one of the segments, Max and Mona are entering a courtyard from an elevated position. As Max begins to lower himself into the courtyard, a sniper on one of the courtyard walls notices him and opens fire, forcing Max to drop down to the ground. When Max gets up and runs into the courtyard, you will notice that the left side of his face and head are covered in blood. Perhaps this point-blank shot we see Max taking near the end of the trailer grazed the side of his head causing the blood seen in the clip (I did notice that the bullet did not look like it was heading dead on between his eyes).

In regard to the bullet disappearing before it hits Max, I think that "Bullet Time" is engaged when you first see the bullet in the air heading toward him, and right before it hits him, the game speeds back up to normal time, thereby enhancing the perceived effect of the impact. It disappears because at real-life speeds, you wouldn't see the bullet at all.

poo_al · 10-09-2003, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Well, no. At the beginning the merc with nightvision goggles takes aim at Max with the Dragunov and then we hear the gunshot. It's possible Max did some kind of shootdodge before the bullet connected. Not exactly realistic, but...

One thing I would like to point out about that part.
First cut is when Max is standing the rain and the camera pans in.
Then we have a cut of the sniper supposedly taking aim. Then the shot of the sniper scope.
Then finally the sniper fires.

Notice in the second cut (taking aim), that there are small yellow particles in the air. This suggests that the sniper had already fired the rifle, and those yellow things are just the ending of the gun flash animation. Also in that cut, you can see the rain coming down very slowly, so that part was taken in bullet time.

Just something to think about.

The other I wanted to mention was when Max is firing away with the scoped MP5. He takes out the first bad guy, then puts two into the second one, who also flips around. Then the reloading animation with the motion blur kicks in. When Max does the 360 and returns to the old view, you can see that the 2nd guy he shot is back on his feet and with a gun. I suspect that this was two different scenes completely, because I don't think that enemies can get up and pick up their guns after they're ragdolled. (You can see the 2nd guy drops his AK-47)

Garrett_2486 · 10-09-2003, 01:58 PM

Words cannot describe. . . . .should have sent a poet . . . .

. . .and ill bet thats mona firing the bullet at max. . .

L.J. · 10-09-2003, 02:09 PM

As for Max getting shot in the head at the start, maybe it's something much more simple than we think. Maybe it's simply a death sequence for when you lose. Just like at the end of Max 1, where if you lose, Nicole Horne gets away in the chopper and shoots the hell out of Max in the process.....
We could be looking far too deeply.

maxpayne.co.uk · 10-09-2003, 02:14 PM

I think we should all shut up, stop nitpicking, and wait for the game

L.J. · 10-09-2003, 02:22 PM

Agreed. The best explanation I've heard so far

!

BTW absolutemaxpayne.co.uk- Great site!

maxpayne.co.uk · 10-09-2003, 03:00 PM

Thanks L.J!

mullen · 10-09-2003, 03:06 PM

Quote:

I think we should all shut up, stop nitpicking, and wait for the game

I also agree

MrUniq · 10-09-2003, 03:29 PM

yup the nitpicking...it's getting kinda wierd

biXen · 10-09-2003, 04:10 PM

Quote:

^ I know how you feel

I'm not late to this thread, i've just been busy with college work and stuff, anyway nice trailer guys - lookin forward to playin the game.

absolutemaxpayne.co.uk has been updated with all the movies and whatnot, not that you guys havent seen them before.

P.S: 100th post! Yay!

Erm wtf are you talking about on your page? I quote: "Max Payne II Is Now In The Shops!! Go And Grab Yourself A Copy!!"

Erm??? You'll be lucky to find it in the shops now dude

Apart from that, nice site.

X-Vector · 10-09-2003, 04:15 PM

Quote:

What are you guys trying to pull!? First off, somebody there has some mad skills, because they trailer looked like one for a MOVIE.

That's the whole point behind both this trailer and the older one for MP, notice that about 1% of the footage is in the viewpoint that will feature in 99% of the game.
It's a mix of cutscenes, scripted scenes and unplayable angles; which is pulled off to nice effect, but does not shake off my apprehension that this is essentially a polished version of a game I've already played.

I realise I'm in the majority here, but quite honestly this trailer doesn't do a whole lot for me; it's certainly professionally done and I can see what people would like about it, but IMO it doesn't have nearly the terrific multilayered build-up and denouement of tension that the Halo 2 teaser offers (which is still my favourite 'non-gameplay' movie).

Oh, and the music in the MP2 trailer can't touch the aural magic in Bungie's vid either (still goosebump city, especially the choral bit at the end).

maxpayne.co.uk · 10-09-2003, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Erm wtf are you talking about on your page? I quote: "Max Payne II Is Now In The Shops!! Go And Grab Yourself A Copy!!"

Erm??? You'll be lucky to find it in the shops now dude Apart from that, nice site.

Change your system date to the correct day. That piece of code works on what your computer date is, so yours is obviously past the 24th October 2003. Mine is correct, and says 15 days to go for the British community.

Thank you for the compliment Bixen

After all, the menus on AMP.co.uk were inspired by your flash ones

biXen · 10-09-2003, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Change your system date to the correct day. That piece of code works on what your computer date is, so yours is obviously past the 24th October 2003. Mine is correct, and says 15 days to go for the British community.

Thank you for the compliment Bixen

After all, the menus on AMP.co.uk were inspired by your flash ones

Damn ripoff artist

My date is correct thank you. I think you are using a shitty PHP GetDate function or something

Ruger · 10-09-2003, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Filmakers should seriously think about using ragdoll CG characters in their action scenes.

I think that's a bit much. If anything, ragdoll is an example of how hard computers have to work to simulate things that occur naturally in real life. Ever seen hard boiled? The hong kong stuntmen in that movie get blown all to hell and go flying through the air with "perfect" physics because we already have physics in the real world. We don't need a computer program to give it to us.

The whole thing is really better suited to a stylistic debate as to how directors should tell stunt men and actors to react when they are "shot". Some movies, they barely flinch, other movies they go flying backwards, pinwheeling their arms as the squibs go off.

Obviously, you and I (and probably most max payne fans) are a fan of the latter method.

Oh yeah, great trailer. Gonna buy it on the first day, just like with Max Payne 1.

Nessus · 10-09-2003, 05:44 PM

As for Max getting shot I noticed he has a big bandage on his chest in the hospital vid. He also could have got nailed in the shoulder, that could make your head whip around.

10-09-2003, 07:51 AM	#41
Nessus	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online Anyone notice that when max was sniping with the scope that he was rapid firing? Looks like you have a semi auto sniper rifle or an automatic with a scope. __________________ "Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book." Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 BC)

10-09-2003, 07:56 AM	#42
Burning Fish	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online "I lied to myself that it was over. It wasn't over... and it would get worse before the end." "You can't run from your past" "This is love. Love hurts. When you're looking down the barrel of a gun, time slows down..." MAX PAYNE ALL THE WAY!!! __________________ "Careful with that gun, lady."

10-09-2003, 08:28 AM	#45
DelitaHex	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online I had ONE problem with the trailer... here I am... in awe... just... in awe. I can't believe for a second I had ever doupted this game. Thinking to myself, WHO CARES IF THAT STUPID GUN DOESN'T BOLT!!! GAHHH! I WANT MY PAYNE!!!!! PAYNE!!! I WANT TO HAVE YOUR CHILDREN! n' stuff like that... Then all the sudden... "RATED M! FOR MMMMMAAAATTTTUUUURRRREEE!!!" So I was kinda like... WHA?!?!?!? Where did that come from? Oh well, the trailer was too good for me to care at all... but I did think it was funny... I mean common... MMMAAATTTUUURRREEE!!!! "FOOOOOTBALLLLLLLLL!!!!! ...On a side note... I'm glad that they didn't release this trailer sooner... who can second me on that? I mean... we had to wait... what... 3 months after the trailer of Max Payne was made? REMEDY!!!! TAKE THE PRIZE OF ACTION GAME OF THE YEAR! since HL2 prolly won't make it till Easter. YOU DESERVE IT ALREADY!!!! pWNAGE!!!!

10-09-2003, 08:55 AM	#46
spyderkiller420	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online who gives a damn if its mature. im still gonna get it. evern tho im 14.

10-09-2003, 09:16 AM	#49
ADM	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online Delita: How much coke have you had? I mean after reading that..

10-09-2003, 09:17 AM	#50
Komb.at	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online What drew my attention was the "sexual content" line

10-09-2003, 09:36 AM	#51
KaiserSoze	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online O.M.G. Best. Game. Trailer. Evar. I'm on this quicker than a nekkid britney. __________________ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JjimMO2SdE

10-09-2003, 09:50 AM	#53
Joonas	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online Also, replying to my own post , I encoded the full trailer to be 1280x720, same quality. 84,7 megs, anybody? hint __________________ Deep Six's Content/Staff Director: http://www.3dap.com/maxpayne/ E-mail and MSN Messenger: joonasd6@gmail.com

10-09-2003, 10:01 AM	#54
DelitaHex	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online I mean common... you know... FOOTBAAAAAAAAAL!!!! For this who don't know, watch Family Guy, episode 1. I just thought it was funny. I don't care that it was rated M for mature... it was just... "RATED M!!! FOR MAAAATTTTUUUURRREEE!!!"

10-09-2003, 10:11 AM	#55
L.J.	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online OH. WOW. Could a trailer be any better? Ummmmmmm..... No. I'm getting those familiar Max Payne feelings again. My thumbs are really itching to play on it now. I'd better go and do something boring before I have a heart attack... But I live in the UK AND I need it on the PS2... I've gotta wait till DECEMBER!!!! PAH... Stupid PC's getting stuff first. Don't worry, I'm not serious. One thing that stuck out to me was when he said: "You can't run from your past." Could this mean that the story for Max 2 is DIRECTLY related to that of Max 1. But now Remedy and Rockstar have cost my 100's of pounds.... I've gotta fix up the hole in the floor where my jaw dropped. NICE WORK. __________________ Deep Six Content Writer \| Dad Payne

10-09-2003, 10:13 AM	#56
mullen	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online man, this video rocks so much i can't describe it! I can't wait for the game!! Because I am in the UK I have to wait longer aswell! __________________ "I ain't no trendy bitch..."-superczar

10-09-2003, 10:37 AM	#57
maxpayne.co.uk	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online ^ I know how you feel I'm not late to this thread, i've just been busy with college work and stuff, anyway nice trailer guys - lookin forward to playin the game. absolutemaxpayne.co.uk has been updated with all the movies and whatnot, not that you guys havent seen them before. P.S: 100th post! Yay! __________________ Windows XP Professional - SP1 Pentium 4 3.15Ghz (Overclocked From 2.66Ghz) 512MB Dual DDR266 160GB Serial-ATA Hard Drive ATI Radeon 9500 Pro 128MB AGP 8x Graphics http://www.maxpayne.co.uk

10-09-2003, 11:07 AM	#60
MrUniq	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online Yea mp5 is friggin sweet....the ragdoll physics are incredible. When the bodies fly and hit objects it's totally realistic. I just gritted my teeth when i saw how that "guy" hit those boxes, and the merc hit the shelf, and how the bodies/heads just jerked around in explosions. You could see "see" the force of the impact. And I like the character faces, especially Mona...she looks like she's always enthusiastic. And about Max getting shot in the head....an old film cliche' is the bad guy never kills the hero when it makes since. They had him at gunpoint, probably was hit by a rubber bullet. When this is show in movie theaters people are going to enjoy it. Filmakers should seriously think about using ragdoll CG characters in their action scenes.

10-09-2003, 11:22 AM	#62
MrUniq	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online wow you guys really pay attention to the smallest micro details....amazing. In reality u wouldn't even see the bullet :P. Theres only so much u can do with current 3d technology.

10-09-2003, 11:29 AM	#63
FullMetalJacket	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online Joonas, The bullet probably disappears because it's supposed to be hitting him and there are no "squibs" in this game. __________________ AIM screenname: MGamer16 "My father would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy; the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament."

10-09-2003, 11:35 AM	#64
Gunrunner	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online i think that the bullet disapears because when they shoot at max the whole thing goes first to slow motion and just before the bullet hits him the time goes normal again and u cant see a bullet irl , can you?

10-09-2003, 11:37 AM	#65
FullMetalJacket	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online You can if it's standing still. __________________ AIM screenname: MGamer16 "My father would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy; the sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament."

10-09-2003, 12:11 PM	#66
g.suarez	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online In response to Max being shot in the head in the trailer: I was looking at the small library of game clips I have downloaded from IGN, and I noticed something interesting... In one of the segments, Max and Mona are entering a courtyard from an elevated position. As Max begins to lower himself into the courtyard, a sniper on one of the courtyard walls notices him and opens fire, forcing Max to drop down to the ground. When Max gets up and runs into the courtyard, you will notice that the left side of his face and head are covered in blood. Perhaps this point-blank shot we see Max taking near the end of the trailer grazed the side of his head causing the blood seen in the clip (I did notice that the bullet did not look like it was heading dead on between his eyes). In regard to the bullet disappearing before it hits Max, I think that "Bullet Time" is engaged when you first see the bullet in the air heading toward him, and right before it hits him, the game speeds back up to normal time, thereby enhancing the perceived effect of the impact. It disappears because at real-life speeds, you wouldn't see the bullet at all.

10-09-2003, 01:58 PM	#68
Garrett_2486	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online Words cannot describe. . . . .should have sent a poet . . . . . . .and ill bet thats mona firing the bullet at max. . .

10-09-2003, 02:09 PM	#69
L.J.	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online As for Max getting shot in the head at the start, maybe it's something much more simple than we think. Maybe it's simply a death sequence for when you lose. Just like at the end of Max 1, where if you lose, Nicole Horne gets away in the chopper and shoots the hell out of Max in the process..... We could be looking far too deeply. __________________ Deep Six Content Writer \| Dad Payne

10-09-2003, 02:14 PM	#70
maxpayne.co.uk	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online I think we should all shut up, stop nitpicking, and wait for the game __________________ Windows XP Professional - SP1 Pentium 4 3.15Ghz (Overclocked From 2.66Ghz) 512MB Dual DDR266 160GB Serial-ATA Hard Drive ATI Radeon 9500 Pro 128MB AGP 8x Graphics http://www.maxpayne.co.uk

10-09-2003, 02:22 PM	#71
L.J.	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online Agreed. The best explanation I've heard so far ! BTW absolutemaxpayne.co.uk- Great site! __________________ Deep Six Content Writer \| Dad Payne

10-09-2003, 03:00 PM	#72
maxpayne.co.uk	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online Thanks L.J! __________________ Windows XP Professional - SP1 Pentium 4 3.15Ghz (Overclocked From 2.66Ghz) 512MB Dual DDR266 160GB Serial-ATA Hard Drive ATI Radeon 9500 Pro 128MB AGP 8x Graphics http://www.maxpayne.co.uk

10-09-2003, 03:29 PM	#74
MrUniq	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online yup the nitpicking...it's getting kinda wierd

10-09-2003, 05:44 PM	#80
Nessus	Re: New \'official\' trailer is online As for Max getting shot I noticed he has a big bandage on his chest in the hospital vid. He also could have got nailed in the shoulder, that could make your head whip around. __________________ "Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book." Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 BC)