Rumor: Gearbox Reviving Duke Nukem Forever - Page 3

Damien_Azreal · 08-11-2010, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Youngerthanold

to Damien: are you crazy? well, duke has been the epitome of gaming for as long as I can remember...waiting 13 years for a new experience, and this could finally be it! those were all good games, I must coincide with you on that matter, but to want them more than THE Duke Nukem Forever...why, in my mind, that is purely blasphemy!

It is not blasphemy.
I grew up with Duke games, been playing them since the very first Duke Nukem... and I've always held up my faith in 3DRealms and DNF.
And yes, I would still love to be able to play the game and actually say, "I own DNF."

But... I think I'd rather Gearbox get to put their time and energy towards THEIR own projects and games. Not take that time and put one of their projects on hold, to finish up another studios work.

But, whatever happens... happens. I'm personally not going to get all excited until this becomes official. Far to often rumors pop up and get blown up only to backfire.
So, IMO, the same old stand by that has been in place for YEARS stays in place. Unless we get an official statement from T2, George, Scott (or someone else in position to make such a statement) take any and all information with a grain of salt.
Remember, this is still a rumor. Nothing has been confirmed at this moment in time. I'm not saying this is completely false, but... it's better to remain rational and just wait and see what comes of this.

Kristian Joensen · 08-11-2010, 01:05 PM

There is simply no way that 3DR, Take Two and Gearbox are going to release DNF without at least 6 months of screenshots, trailers and magazine/online previews.

Edit:

"Not take that time and put one of their projects on hold, to finish up another studios work. "

That is not the alternative, they don't have to put one of their own games on hold for this. It is called being a multi-team company.

Damien_Azreal · 08-11-2010, 01:14 PM

Gearbox is not that large of a company. 170 employees is actually pretty small for a multiple-project studio.
Yes, they can work on multiple projects at once... but even then. Taking on the completion of DNF would mean one of their own projects would have to be on hold to do this.

Yes, it wouldn't require a full stop on all Gearbox games. But one of their projects would have to go on hold to do this.

fofo.rider · 08-11-2010, 01:20 PM

Don't forget this :

Duke Begins was Being Developed by Gearbox - 15 July 2009

Duke Begins emerged from a 2007 Agreement between 3D Realms and Take-Two, with development taking place at an external third party studio now known to be Gearbox. As part of the deal, 3D Realms received a $2.5 million advance to help fund DNF.

While Take-Two admits that the development of Duke Begins "has for the time being been halted," the company denies that the game has been cancelled, and argues that 3D Realms did not need to be consulted regarding this change to the schedule.

Kristian Joensen · 08-11-2010, 01:34 PM

Quote:

170 employees is actually pretty small for a multiple-project studio.

Even if they have as many as five projects that would be 34 people on average per project, just about the same size as 3DR's previous DNF team.

A possible scenario for five projects:

1. Borderlands 2.
2. New BIA game.
3. Aliens: Colonial Marines.
4. Duke Begins.
5. DNF.

"But one of their projects would have to go on hold to do this."

Or they could staff up.

But even if they had to put Duke Begins on hold, would that be so terrible? Heck if they were really smart about sharing art assets(strippers, some of the more generic NPCs and by-standers, some props and level decorations(how many different mirrors, tables, lamps etc do you need between DB and DNF?), weapons, Duke himself, etc), some sound effects and code between Duke Begins and DNF and taking advantage of the fact that DNF is at all probability far longer in its development than DB they could do with a combined team of perhaps 60 or even 55 for those two games.

Edit2:

I am not at all suggesting that any of the above is actually happening or even likely. Just saying that it is certainly more than possible for GBX to be developing DNF without putting one of their projects on hold and even if they do if that project was Duke Begins I wouldn't mind that much. However for all I know this rumor could be false, but it seems to be one of the more credible rumors to turn up in a while. Remember initially both the mass departures of 2006 and the lay offs last year were revealed beforehand with journalists going off sources. So we will see.

randir14 · 08-11-2010, 01:43 PM

Remember quotes from earlier this year

Scott Miller

Quote:

Good news ahead this year...

Randy Pitchford

Quote:

"I've started a new project. It's big. It's, like, 'look-at-our-line-up-and-imagine-something-even-bigger' kind of big. I'm directing it myself. I can't mention it publicly yet. When you find out what this is, you'll likely agree that I can't oversell this one."

WarThrash · 08-11-2010, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien_Azreal

Honestly, as far as 3D REALMS goes... I'd rather see them spend the time working on their own titles.

I know Damien...I know.

By the way, I seem to recall you being somewhat in favor of Duke Begins. But since that game seems to be on hold indefinitely or maybe even canceled, then why wouldn't you be in favor of Gearbox doing Duke Forever? If Duke Begins doesn't get made then DNF would just be taking it's place.

Kristian Joensen · 08-11-2010, 01:52 PM

Uhh, that Randy Pitchford quote is NOT from this year, I think it from 2007. It may well have been Duke Begins.

Edit:

It seems that Pitchford quote is from February 2008. Over a year before 3DR let their internal dev team go. In other words not related at all.

Water12356 · 08-11-2010, 02:06 PM

Intresting rumor! Lets not get too excited however. As D_A said, lets wait for for some offical news.

Damien_Azreal · 08-11-2010, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen

I am not at all suggesting that any of the above is actually happening or even likely. Just saying that it is certainly more than possible for GBX to be developing DNF without putting one of their projects on hold and even if they do if that project was Duke Begins I wouldn't mind that much. However for all I know this rumor could be false, but it seems to be one of the more credible rumors to turn up in a while. Remember initially both the mass departures of 2006 and the lay offs last year were revealed beforehand with journalists going off sources. So we will see.

Gearbox had to put Aliens: Colonial Marines on hold to finish up Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway and Borderlands. Three projects was slowing down the development cycle of the studio.

blakelan91 · 08-11-2010, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien_Azreal

Gearbox had to put Aliens: Colonial Marines on hold to finish up Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway and Borderlands. Three projects was slowing down the development cycle of the studio.

Who cares about aliens colonial marines! it'll just be another shitty aliens game like the aliens and predators one that came out last year. This is ******* duke we're talking about! The one and only alien ass kicker! not some colonial marines!

Xgthug · 08-11-2010, 02:28 PM

I think that Gearbox is the most qualified company to finish DNF,
I just hope that they stay true to Duke, and salvage as much work that was done by 3DRealms.

Kristian Joensen · 08-11-2010, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien_Azreal

Gearbox had to put Aliens: Colonial Marines on hold to finish up Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway and Borderlands. Three projects was slowing down the development cycle of the studio.

IIRC they never stated that as the reason for A:CM being put on hold(or even ever confirmed it being put on hold AFAIK) on the other hand I seem to recall some hints of a dispute between Gearbox and Sega.

Mr.Fibbles · 08-11-2010, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blakelan91

Who cares about aliens colonial marines! it'll just be another shitty aliens game like the aliens and predators one that came out last year. This is ******* duke we're talking about! The one and only alien ass kicker! not some faggot colonial marines!

You do realize how incredibly ironic that statement is, right?

blakelan91 · 08-11-2010, 02:38 PM

I meant of the the aliens series mr. fibbles, so no it's not so incredibly ironic.

robotman5 · 08-11-2010, 02:38 PM

hope it does come out finally

also hope they release a demo!

Damien_Azreal · 08-11-2010, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen

IIRC they never stated that as the reason for A:CM being put on hold(or even ever confirmed it being put on hold AFAIK) on the other hand I seem to recall some hints of a dispute between Gearbox and Sega.

No disputes. Colonial Marines was put on full stop because SEGA wanted to see what kind of response AvP got.
But Gearbox did put the game on a slight slowdown to move people from it's team to finish up BiA:HH... then, once BiA was finished all members of the BiA team were moved to the Borderlands team to finish the game and start work on the DLC.

They never made an official statement about putting the game on hold, but Randy (who does love to talk at conventions, parties and releases) did say they had to move members around the company to get Borderlands finished.

---------- Post added at 03:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:39 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by blakelan91

Who cares about aliens colonial marines! it'll just be another shitty aliens game like the aliens and predators one that came out last year. This is ******* duke we're talking about! The one and only alien ass kicker! not some ***** colonial marines!

Okay. First warning... use any slanderous terms like the homophobic one used above... temp ban. That is not tolerated here, not in any way.

And secondly, Colonial Marines looks absolutely badass. Just because you don't have any interest in it, doesn't mean anything. There is a HUGE following of Aliens fans (on this forum) that are very interested in the game.
And, AvP was a very solid and enjoyable game... again, your personal taste does not make it fact for the gaming community.

blakelan91 · 08-11-2010, 02:45 PM

Sorry about that damien, I didn't intend to offend. I was just stating that DNF is on a whole other level compared to A:CM. I mean which would you rather have?

Kristian Joensen · 08-11-2010, 02:46 PM

I am certainly looking forward to A:CM and I am sure I am not alone.

Edit:

"I mean which would you rather have?"

Probably DNF any day.

Bam050196 · 08-11-2010, 02:49 PM

I sure Hope they will release a Demo.

blakelan91 · 08-11-2010, 02:56 PM

I would look forward to it, but I absolutely hated the new AvP game. I looked forward to it then I tryed the demo and it was a terrible game. The only other game that looks really fun to me (other than DNF) is Bulletstorm.

WarThrash · 08-11-2010, 03:06 PM

AvP 09 was awesome. Too bad most people were sheep and skipped it because of the GameInformer and Gamespot review.

dino · 08-11-2010, 03:09 PM

Well, this years PAX is not that far away - I'm a little excited but also in doubt if we actually get to see anything or if it's going to be another news wasteland like E3 was (regarding DNF).

On the other hand, Scott proclaimed E3 to be irrelevant anyway - maybe the smaller conventions get some well deserved spotlight as the E3 has lost quite a bit of it's former glory, even though improving compared to recent years.

I'd love to see the project coming to a happy end - mostly because there was so much work, sweat and whatnot going into the title over the past 13 years, so that it would indeed be a shame if it was ending up in a trash bin.

Syph · 08-11-2010, 03:14 PM

I want to believe...

randir14 · 08-11-2010, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristian Joensen

Uhh, that Randy Pitchford quote is NOT from this year, I think it from 2007. It may well have been Duke Begins.

Edit:

It seems that Pitchford quote is from February 2008. Over a year before 3DR let their internal dev team go. In other words not related at all.

Ah you're right. For some reason I thought it was from January this year.

JobivanHiob · 08-11-2010, 03:30 PM

A:CM vs DNF flameware anyone?!

I think 6 months hype befor release is absolutely the max. We're talking DNF here...I'm sure Take 2 is shooting for a shorter and more intense marketing cycle. Lets say 3-5 months.

EvanQuinn · 08-11-2010, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien_Azreal

Who about... we just wait until PAX. Speculating and getting all excited seems rather pointless until some solid facts emerge.

BUH BUH BUH BUH BUZZ KILLLLLLLLLLLLLL!

and also, no one cares about brothers in arms. those games sucked. I seriously cannot fathom how YOU could say something like you had rather them work on something of their own? This forum is full of buzz kill. I am excited, be excited, don't let anyone get you down, and be prepared to play a demo before 2011. Shock and awesome!!!!!!!!!

BTW: Blakelan91 is right, you fellows need to stop sucking at life. Mr.Fibbles, you suck.

boglito · 08-11-2010, 03:42 PM

I'm going to treat this rumor as fact. Nothing makes more sense than this.
I cannot wait.

/me bets on duke

EvanQuinn · 08-11-2010, 03:46 PM

I'm all in.

JobivanHiob · 08-11-2010, 03:49 PM

haha, guess what?!

I'm all in!

Yes I said it! hahahah

WarThrash · 08-11-2010, 03:54 PM

Anyone wanna make a PAX Bet thread?

DNF at PAX, SHOCK AND AWESOME!!!

or

STOP DREAMING ALREADY!!!

JobivanHiob · 08-11-2010, 03:55 PM

Duke must go on! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ADh8Fs3YdU

it's time to shine ladies and gentlemen.

THIS IS OUR TIME!

Alucard256 · 08-11-2010, 04:03 PM

Didn't all the stuff for this game get leaked/released when 3dRealms laid off their staff? I vaguely remember a script being thrown around as well. So wouldn't that mean that they(gearbox if any of this is true) would have to recreate the game? Hell, they might just release Duke Begins and call it Duke Nukem Forever.

blakelan91 · 08-11-2010, 04:14 PM

btw jobi was this what you meant when you said news this month?

Kristian Joensen · 08-11-2010, 04:17 PM

Quote:

So wouldn't that mean that they(gearbox if any of this is true) would have to recreate the game?

No, not at all. Why would it mean that?

Mr Bear · 08-11-2010, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr.smith

all i want to see on this site is:

"IT'S DONE"

Nothing More.

http://forums.3drealms.com/vb/showthread.php?t=36917

JobivanHiob · 08-11-2010, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blakelan91

btw jobi was this what you meant when you said news this month?

yes! Just missed it for 3 days or so it seems

but who knows maybe we will hear something official before PAX.

Damien_Azreal · 08-11-2010, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blakelan91

Sorry about that damien, I didn't intend to offend. I was just stating that DNF is on a whole other level compared to A:CM. I mean which would you rather have?

Both. Why should I have to choose one over the other. Duke is awesome... but Aliens are f***ing badass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvanQuinn

BUH BUH BUH BUH BUZZ KILLLLLLLLLLLLLL!

and also, no one cares about brothers in arms. those games sucked. I seriously cannot fathom how YOU could say something like you had rather them work on something of their own? This forum is full of buzz kill. I am excited, be excited, don't let anyone get you down, and be prepared to play a demo before 2011. Shock and awesome!!!!!!!!!

BTW: Blakelan91 is right, you fellows need to stop sucking at life. Mr.Fibbles, you suck.

AGAIN... your personal opinions/taste on game preferences do make it fact.
Just because you don't like it... so what, that does not make it the universal statement for everyone on this forum.
Also, if you don't like Gearbox's games... why would you get excited about them finishing DNF?

Also, personal attacks... "you suck"... not allowed. DON'T do it again.

WarThrash · 08-11-2010, 05:00 PM

I've been reading comments on Gamespot about the news. The reaction is certainly...mixed. I can't tell if people are mostly happy that there may be more Duke news soon or if they most people are just plain fed up with it all. Every other comment is "Let Duke die already" or "The King lives!".

Water12356 · 08-11-2010, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarThrash

I've been reading comments on Gamespot about the news. The reaction is certainly...mixed. I can't tell if people are mostly happy that there may be more Duke news soon or if they most people are just plain fed up with it all. Every other comment is "Let Duke die already" or "The King lives!".

Pretty much.

08-11-2010, 01:14 PM	#83
Damien_Azreal Super Moderator	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever Gearbox is not that large of a company. 170 employees is actually pretty small for a multiple-project studio. Yes, they can work on multiple projects at once... but even then. Taking on the completion of DNF would mean one of their own projects would have to be on hold to do this. Yes, it wouldn't require a full stop on all Gearbox games. But one of their projects would have to go on hold to do this. __________________ Monolith Fanboy since 1997 Upcoming Anticipated Games: Doom, Shadow Warrior 2, Mafia III, DisHonored 2, Deus Ex: Mankind Divided

08-11-2010, 01:05 PM	#82
Kristian Joensen	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever There is simply no way that 3DR, Take Two and Gearbox are going to release DNF without at least 6 months of screenshots, trailers and magazine/online previews. Edit: "Not take that time and put one of their projects on hold, to finish up another studios work. " That is not the alternative, they don't have to put one of their own games on hold for this. It is called being a multi-team company. __________________ The Philosophy Of Liberty, Chaos Theory Tachyons, Time Travel, and Divine Omniscience A Refutation of Moral Relativism(Transcript)

08-11-2010, 01:20 PM	#84
fofo.rider	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever Don't forget this : Duke Begins was Being Developed by Gearbox - 15 July 2009 Duke Begins emerged from a 2007 Agreement between 3D Realms and Take-Two, with development taking place at an external third party studio now known to be Gearbox. As part of the deal, 3D Realms received a $2.5 million advance to help fund DNF. While Take-Two admits that the development of Duke Begins "has for the time being been halted," the company denies that the game has been cancelled, and argues that 3D Realms did not need to be consulted regarding this change to the schedule. __________________ Who wants some?

08-11-2010, 01:52 PM	#88
Kristian Joensen	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever Uhh, that Randy Pitchford quote is NOT from this year, I think it from 2007. It may well have been Duke Begins. Edit: It seems that Pitchford quote is from February 2008. Over a year before 3DR let their internal dev team go. In other words not related at all. __________________ The Philosophy Of Liberty, Chaos Theory Tachyons, Time Travel, and Divine Omniscience A Refutation of Moral Relativism(Transcript) Last edited by Kristian Joensen; 08-11-2010 at 01:54 PM.

08-11-2010, 02:06 PM	#89
Water12356	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever Intresting rumor! Lets not get too excited however. As D_A said, lets wait for for some offical news. __________________ "Psycho Mantis locking your doors, your fridge, shutting off your air conditioner, and clogging your toilet sure beats reading some crap off a memory card." - Mr. Blud "Men trade whatever they have for sex and women trade sex for whatever they want. That may be unromantic but theres truth to it." - Nessus

08-11-2010, 02:28 PM	#92
Xgthug	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever I think that Gearbox is the most qualified company to finish DNF, I just hope that they stay true to Duke, and salvage as much work that was done by 3DRealms.

08-11-2010, 02:38 PM	#95
blakelan91	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever I meant of the the aliens series mr. fibbles, so no it's not so incredibly ironic.

08-11-2010, 02:38 PM	#96
robotman5	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever hope it does come out finally also hope they release a demo!

08-11-2010, 02:45 PM	#98
blakelan91	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever Sorry about that damien, I didn't intend to offend. I was just stating that DNF is on a whole other level compared to A:CM. I mean which would you rather have?

08-11-2010, 02:46 PM	#99
Kristian Joensen	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever I am certainly looking forward to A:CM and I am sure I am not alone. Edit: "I mean which would you rather have?" Probably DNF any day. __________________ The Philosophy Of Liberty, Chaos Theory Tachyons, Time Travel, and Divine Omniscience A Refutation of Moral Relativism(Transcript)

08-11-2010, 02:49 PM	#100
Bam050196	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever I sure Hope they will release a Demo.

08-11-2010, 02:56 PM	#101
blakelan91	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever I would look forward to it, but I absolutely hated the new AvP game. I looked forward to it then I tryed the demo and it was a terrible game. The only other game that looks really fun to me (other than DNF) is Bulletstorm.

08-11-2010, 03:06 PM	#102
WarThrash	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever AvP 09 was awesome. Too bad most people were sheep and skipped it because of the GameInformer and Gamespot review. __________________ RAAWR!

08-11-2010, 03:09 PM	#103
dino	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever Well, this years PAX is not that far away - I'm a little excited but also in doubt if we actually get to see anything or if it's going to be another news wasteland like E3 was (regarding DNF). On the other hand, Scott proclaimed E3 to be irrelevant anyway - maybe the smaller conventions get some well deserved spotlight as the E3 has lost quite a bit of it's former glory, even though improving compared to recent years. I'd love to see the project coming to a happy end - mostly because there was so much work, sweat and whatnot going into the title over the past 13 years, so that it would indeed be a shame if it was ending up in a trash bin. __________________ GET TO THE CHOPPA! It is the only way out...

08-11-2010, 03:14 PM	#104
Syph	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever I want to believe... __________________ "Feelin' stupid? I know I am!"- Homer Simpson

08-11-2010, 03:30 PM	#106
JobivanHiob	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever A:CM vs DNF flameware anyone?! I think 6 months hype befor release is absolutely the max. We're talking DNF here...I'm sure Take 2 is shooting for a shorter and more intense marketing cycle. Lets say 3-5 months. __________________ Stay up to date with http://dukewatch.blogspot.com for the UNEXPECTED and PREPARE YOURSELF for SHOCK and AWESOME on Penny Arcade EXPO from September 3-5! Onebullit: "If DNF comes out in 2010 i will buy 2 copies and send you one." pjVgt regading DNF at PAX:"I would seriously shit my pants and pre-order three copies - one will be sent to Jobi"

08-11-2010, 03:42 PM	#108
boglito	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever I'm going to treat this rumor as fact. Nothing makes more sense than this. I cannot wait. /me bets on duke

08-11-2010, 03:46 PM	#109
EvanQuinn	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever I'm all in.

08-11-2010, 03:49 PM	#110
JobivanHiob	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever haha, guess what?! I'm all in! Yes I said it! hahahah __________________ Stay up to date with http://dukewatch.blogspot.com for the UNEXPECTED and PREPARE YOURSELF for SHOCK and AWESOME on Penny Arcade EXPO from September 3-5! Onebullit: "If DNF comes out in 2010 i will buy 2 copies and send you one." pjVgt regading DNF at PAX:"I would seriously shit my pants and pre-order three copies - one will be sent to Jobi"

08-11-2010, 03:54 PM	#111
WarThrash	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever Anyone wanna make a PAX Bet thread? DNF at PAX, SHOCK AND AWESOME!!! or STOP DREAMING ALREADY!!! __________________ RAAWR!

08-11-2010, 03:55 PM	#112
JobivanHiob	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever Duke must go on! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ADh8Fs3YdU it's time to shine ladies and gentlemen. THIS IS OUR TIME! __________________ Stay up to date with http://dukewatch.blogspot.com for the UNEXPECTED and PREPARE YOURSELF for SHOCK and AWESOME on Penny Arcade EXPO from September 3-5! Onebullit: "If DNF comes out in 2010 i will buy 2 copies and send you one." pjVgt regading DNF at PAX:"I would seriously shit my pants and pre-order three copies - one will be sent to Jobi"

08-11-2010, 04:03 PM	#113
Alucard256	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever Didn't all the stuff for this game get leaked/released when 3dRealms laid off their staff? I vaguely remember a script being thrown around as well. So wouldn't that mean that they(gearbox if any of this is true) would have to recreate the game? Hell, they might just release Duke Begins and call it Duke Nukem Forever.

08-11-2010, 04:14 PM	#114
blakelan91	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever btw jobi was this what you meant when you said news this month?

08-11-2010, 05:00 PM	#119
WarThrash	Re: Rumor: Borderlands Studio Reviving Duke Nukem Forever I've been reading comments on Gamespot about the news. The reaction is certainly...mixed. I can't tell if people are mostly happy that there may be more Duke news soon or if they most people are just plain fed up with it all. Every other comment is "Let Duke die already" or "The King lives!". __________________ RAAWR!