So what do Native Americans think of Prey.

[Daewoodrow]

Originally Posted by Laz

Yeah, that's right. Distrusting an entire race based on the actions of some people of said race is the way we can beat racism!

Did I say we shouldn't trust your race? I said people don't trust your race. I said it wasn't fair, but you can't blame them. Yet you misquoted me just to change the point of what i said, no doubt to change into a statement you are more capable of responding to.

Is this how it's going to be? Then fine. If anyone of higher intelligence would like to pose a couterargument, i'll discuss it with you. Till then i'm done here.

[Nashoba]

Originally Posted by WVa Cherokee

I saw in another thread here that someone was complaining about how being proud of an Indian heritage (as in the game) was unnecessary and that if someone proclaimed being proud of being white that it would be "frowned upon". I'll try to explain a bit here. I know more people and family than I can count that went to Indian boarding schools and were forced to learn English and become Christian. They were told they were heathen, pagan, savages, etc. Those older people went through this and because of it, wanted their young people to feel proud, not ashamed as they were made to feel at times.

This is the part that sucks about being Native. I'm 1/4 Choctaw, 1/4 Cherokee with a smattering of other races for the other half (LOL I know I'm a mutt) But even being half blooded...since my family was ashamed of their heritage, having been made that way, I don't even know the language of my own peoples (though I'm trying to learn, but I fear at my age I will always speak with an accent)

So much langauge and culture is lost...it saddens me. Try to find a Choctaw who practices their old beliefs instead of being Baptist....not an easy...(if it is even possible) task And if they don't exist...that part of the culture is gone forever, except as recorded by outsiders in history texts.

Or what information you do find is buried in all of the New Age "Rainbow Tribe" stuff that seems to fill the bookshelves on Native culture. I mean really....Chakras...sorry bub, you got the wrong kinda indian :-)

Anyway...I'm a bit off topic...so....

Prey rules! LOL

[WVa Cherokee]

Nice to see another Cherokee here . Learn the language...keep it alive!

[Laz]

Originally Posted by Daewoodrow

Did I say we shouldn't trust your race? I said people don't trust your race. I said it wasn't fair, but you can't blame them. Yet you misquoted me just to change the point of what i said, no doubt to change into a statement you are more capable of responding to.

Is this how it's going to be? Then fine. If anyone of higher intelligence would like to pose a couterargument, i'll discuss it with you. Till then i'm done here.

Uh, way to read. Nowhere did I say that you believed white people couldn't be trusted. I did not misquote you either. You did,in fact, say what I quoted. I believe you meant I had taken what you said out of context. I'd like you to point out the part of my previous post where I said you were a bad person and you didn't trust white people. Then I'd feel you had the right to say someone had a lower intelligence than yourself.

I merely commented on what you said, which is allowed. This is a public forum, afterall.

[garland81]

Is it me or are all the natives (me, Nashoda, and WVa Cherokee) not in this two-way argument? :P I think i'm just gonna go smoke the peace pipe (no, not weed either) for awhile. Want a puff WVa? :P

Speaking of which, I got a pow wow to attend to this weekend.

[Nashoba]

Originally Posted by garland81

Speaking of which, I got a pow wow to attend to this weekend.

Man that's what i hate about moving to a new area....don't know the peoples here, therefore can't go to pow wows (no clue who has 'em or where)....I miss my fry bread :-)...do the any of the North Eastern tribes even have fry bread?....I'm so lost in NJ....nothing like OK....ah well....one year behind me...not as hard as it first was anyway. Ranocas festival is only 2 or 3 months away.

[WVa Cherokee]

My wife makes great frybread. I'll send you some .

[Gatinater]

Originally Posted by Geronimo

I haven't herd any news about what Native Americans think about Prey. As far as I know this is the first game to have a Native American lead character so I figure they'd be interested. I was curious as to why we haven't herd anything from that community. Or has it just not reached the white press?

Why does it matter? I'm offended by this question, because it puts an emphasis on differences. Why does the race and heritage of the protagonist portrayed in this game matter?

I noticed Tommy and his family are american indian and the story revealed that they are cherokees, but I didn't put any thought into it other than it's a nice change of scenery, characters and plot motive.

[Gideon]

Originally Posted by Gatinater

Why does it matter? I'm offended by this question, because it puts an emphasis on differences. Why does the race and heritage of the protagonist portrayed in this game matter?

I noticed Tommy and his family are american indian and the story revealed that they are cherokees, but I didn't put any thought into it other than it's a nice change of scenery, characters and plot motive.

Excellent, that's EXACTLY what I was trying to say. Well worded.

[garland81]

We don't have frybread here but what we do have is.. "Bannock" and "Balogna" . Btw, there's a comic strip called Bannock and Balogna. :P

If you wanna try some.. I'll just deflate the bannock and stuff it in a letter envelope and send some over.

[Decker]

The topic wasn't if the native Americans approved the game, just what they thought about the portayal of the native aspect in it. I don't know why some ppl feel like suppressing the discussion. I found the tidbits in this thread about native heritage and language interesting.

[SuicideRUN]

Originally Posted by Decker

The topic wasn't if the native Americans approved the game, just what they thought about the portayal of the native aspect in it. I don't know why some ppl feel like suppressing the discussion. I found the tidbits in this thread about native heritage and language interesting.

It is interesting, but you notice there's never questions like. What do white people think of Max Payne or Duke Nukem. Only when another race is the main character do people worry about what that race thinks about it.

[garland81]

Oooo I got some crazy questions. What do you think about a white man playing the role of a black man whose trying to be a white man? Or how bout a woman who's trying to be a man who dresses like a woman? What if Duke Nukem was given the title of Duke and was ordered to fire nuclear missiles? Would it look like this on page: Duke Duke Nukem says "Nukem". What if Max Payne felt pain? Would he get mad? Would he be Mad Max Payne in Pain?

Ok that's enough of ridiculous questions

[WVa Cherokee]

Originally Posted by Gatinater

Why does it matter? I'm offended by this question, because it puts an emphasis on differences.

I used to know a guy who said stuff like that. He felt there should be no differences. Everyone MUST be a Christian (like him). Everyone MUST speak English (like him). In short, he was not happy unless everyone had the same cultural viewpoint as he did. That kind of ethnocentric attitude does not lend itself very well in this situation. Especially when a minority from another culture is representing the "hero".

What is so wrong about members of that minority discussing this? Especially when it almost never happens. The majority of people (IE white people...they are the majority after all ) sometimes do not see this point of view because for their whole lives the hero has almost always been white (Superman, Spiderman, etc). Every single American president has been white (possible long lost heritage notwithstanding). Black people are starting to get into the mix after the Civil Rights stuff. You have more and more black people in positions of power, possible presidential candidates, tv/movie heros, etc. This is a good thing of course.

But my point is, is that Indian people haven't even gotten that far. Maybe one or two senators. Ever hear of a high profile/big business CEO who is Indian? Indian people don't have a version of Oprah. It is VERY rare for an Indian actor to play just a regular guy in a movie like say, a detective or scientist. And...um...yay, we get Apache Chief as a super hero! :P

But we are getting there...slowly but surely. It is from this kind of perspective that we view movies and Indian portrayal within them. It is also from this perspective that we can say, "Wow, I can actually play a hero in a game that I can identify with more." We see these things and hope that the creators at least tried to get a few things right. We think things like this because mainstream society sometimes still thinks of Indians as "hollywood Indians" rather than what they really are. It is hard to be taken seriously in a world where the population's main source of information about your people is what they saw in a few movies.

Again, it is from this perspective that we discuss things like this. If this situation were not so rare, then there would be no need for discussion.

it is really cool to listen to you Wva cherokee. I wish You the best.

[Nashoba]

Originally Posted by WVa Cherokee

I used to know a guy who said stuff like that. He felt there should be no differences. Everyone MUST be a Christian (like him). Everyone MUST speak English (like him). In short, he was not happy unless everyone had the same cultural viewpoint as he did. That kind of ethnocentric attitude does not lend itself very well in this situation. Especially when a minority from another culture is representing the "hero".

Or any situation for that matter...uniformity is boring. What people tend to forget is that equal rights or equality is not the same thing as uniformity. People can celebrate their differences and heritage and still be equals

Originally Posted by WVa Cherokee

What is so wrong about members of that minority discussing this? Especially when it almost never happens. The majority of people (IE white people...they are the majority after all ) sometimes do not see this point of view because for their whole lives the hero has almost always been white (Superman, Spiderman, etc). Every single American president has been white (possible long lost heritage notwithstanding). Black people are starting to get into the mix after the Civil Rights stuff. You have more and more black people in positions of power, possible presidential candidates, tv/movie heros, etc. This is a good thing of course.
But my point is, is that Indian people haven't even gotten that far. Maybe one or two senators. Ever hear of a high profile/big business CEO who is Indian? Indian people don't have a version of Oprah. It is VERY rare for an Indian actor to play just a regular guy in a movie like say, a detective or scientist.

Well Said!

Originally Posted by WVa Cherokee

And...um...yay, we get Apache Chief as a super hero! :P

We have a super hero?? Who knew....

Originally Posted by WVa Cherokee

We think things like this because mainstream society sometimes still thinks of Indians as "hollywood Indians" rather than what they really are. It is hard to be taken seriously in a world where the population's main source of information about your people is what they saw in a few movies.

Yeah when I first worked in New Jersey, my employer asked where I am from, and I told her Oklahoma....she looked at me dead serious and asked if we were still having problems with the Indians (I didn't inherit the lack of heavy facial hair or the straight black hair that most people identify us with...) Anyway..I laughed , and told her I was Native, and then said no, it's the damn cowboys that are the problem now...lol

Point is...your right....in areas of the country where we don't have a large presence like we have in OK, some people still seem to think that we still run around in Buckskins, or that every Native is a shaman and has some uber deep spiritual wisdom we can impart on them....

Originally Posted by WVa Cherokee

Again, it is from this perspective that we discuss things like this. If this situation were not so rare, then there would be no need for discussion.

Great points WVA...nicely worded. Now I'm off to make me some fry bread (I hate making it...but craving now....) and introduce it to my Russian in-laws....they always act weird about traditional foods...yet you should see what they eat ...blech

[SuicideRUN]

Nashoba, don't make me start naming Native American superheroes. In the X-men series alone there's been like 12. I'm a comic freak and I know minority heroes, gay heroes, heroes with aids, heros with addictions, heroes with emotional issues, heroes from the past who fight their evil future self. You name it and it's been done in comics.

[Nashoba]

Originally Posted by SuicideRUN

Nashoba, don't make me start naming Native American superheroes. In the X-men series alone there's been like 12. I'm a comic freak and I know minority heroes, gay heroes, heroes with aids, heros with addictions, heroes with emotional issues, heroes from the past who fight their evil future self. You name it and it's been done in comics.

LOL I never really followed comics, and my wife is mostly into Manga, so it was a matter genuine surprise because I really didn't know, I wasn't thinking we had been slighted

Unless they are major and in movies...(and then only the ones my wife drags me to, because I'd rather stay home and read) I have no clue about them LOL

[Geir]

I beleave this thread is going to be in the archives some day and that is why I'm saving it now to actually truthfully say in the future that I read this thread and enjoyed every aspect of its information, it's diversity, it's examples. There has never been a symilar game and I congradulate everyone who helped on making this game the way it is today. I cannot beleave this thread contains actual native american responses concerning the native amarican aspect of 'Prey'. This is en excelent example of a discussion.

Racism... no, predijuces, they haunt the minds of most people, I know; I know this becuase I actually do think that fat policemen eat dohnuts all day, but that's not the point. Specificly, racism is the point in the paragraph, with my thesis being that african and indian (Asian, not native) amaricans are not drowned in racist comments, but they do use this to their advantage... and in my school, it seems to be somewhat of a joke. You see, nobody is using racism in a bold way at school, it's not even noticable by me; but still, these students piss off teachers, saying that they got in trouble (when they get in trouble) just because they were black. The least I can say is that the teachers do not approve of this, even when it is followed by laughing by anyone. even african and indian teachers do not approve of this becuase it shows that this new generation is being molded badly and that they are using racism to their advantage, students are letting teachers know that thay like the fact that people are being predijust, and hence racism will go on in the hearts of the next generation. Unlike any other student, I, being of that generation, disaproove.

What I also disaprove of is what hollywood preceaves of not only natives, but arnold shwartsnegger, russians, crack-smokers, american teenagers, even werewolves (because I know much about these topics) and everything else that has been implemented into movie veiwers' minds not only by the multi-billion-dollar movies, news and tv, but by some books and music!

I, myself, am Russian (I'm in canada, though... it's a spinoff of 'an englishman in new york'). When I say that I am russian to my clasmates, some of them ask me if I do that funny dance or play russian roullet (don't ask) and some others ask me why I don't have a russian accent. I tell these people that I don't dance, that I have never lost an appendage in my life (which might disturb people if they think the other way) and that I never use the (I feel, hollywood-ized) rusian accent because I was assimilated into canada (I can understand some of the rusian vocabulary, but I can't write and it's hard for me to say anything in russian, you just can't get it out of me; which answers the other qestion of "can you speak russian?" or the command "speak some rusian this instant!"). I feel that nothing russian is put into the minds of this generation of high-school students in canada and that is good (hay, I'm the second Russian I know in my school) and I also feel prowd that I am so F'in rare (exotic is the word?) in these parts. I also feel that whatever hollywood put into our minds about russians is not good. some examples would be that sometimes in 'relic hunter', I don't beleave they speak proper russian, let alone english (there is my dis of the day...) and in the adams family, members of that same family should not play russian roulet or put swords in their mouths often (actually, never do that again!), laura croft's Tomb raider 7 portrayed the russians so-so with their language, but I have heard that in 'legend of redwall' (books and movies alike), moles were meant to be sort-of rusian, is that true? beucase I did not detect it. So, along with saying that I don't like the way hollywood does some russian stuff, I'm saying that there are examples of all types of discrimination in hollywood, and not just of african and indians and native americans, but of everybody: swedish, canadian (eh?), and everything else alike.

I have read about the assimilation of the native americans (duh, but thats not my point) and I feel sorry that ancestors of all religion had to be put through that (for it is not gods will, but that is also not my point). My point is that we are givin this information and we are taught to decide weather this was a good idea or a bad idea... wheather you were on the side of the natives or the europeans that came here and assimilated... and weather you say that it is gods will to do something (which I beleave is plain bullshit) or that freedom must be granted to every bean, being black, white, mixed or animal or weather you say that, "The crackers are the borg!!!!!1111" (you might never know...). We are given this information to do something about it! We did not make the past, but we will make the future from this informaiton. we will either get game over and do this assimilation stuff all over again, or we will learn from those idiots behind us's mestakes (no offence...). It is a great thing that some history teacers guide us in the right direction, saying that 'this' is not good, but others say that this is not 'freedom' (if I go any more on my opinion of this in particular, I will drive off this road and talk about my opinion on the "Thanatos" instinc, which I, oddly enough, highly agree apon (emo))

Dispite my bad spelling and stuff (which I hope you can read), I have enough two cents in there to buy me a beverage... lets take a break.

[The Bad Guy]

Originally Posted by WVa Cherokee

I used to know a guy who said stuff like that. He felt there should be no differences. Everyone MUST be a Christian (like him). Everyone MUST speak English (like him). In short, he was not happy unless everyone had the same cultural viewpoint as he did. That kind of ethnocentric attitude does not lend itself very well in this situation. Especially when a minority from another culture is representing the "hero".

I don't think he said that everybody should be the same, but that people shouldn't focus on differences, because this can lead to poeple disliking people in other groups. It's possible to be different, but not focus on the difference. Whether this is desirable of not is another question.

[Gatinater]

I wasn't saying we should all be the same aesthetically or religiously. If it was flat out bigotry I would have ignored it, because I believe people should have the freedom to believe and feel the way they see fit as long as it doesn't physically harm anyone else or become a harrassment.

Not only that, but also because under the conditions of bigotry you can't make them change their mind. They don't feel the way they do out of ignorance, but rather disgust or hatred.

This topic initially suggests a racists attitude. Many people don't realize they are being racist, they have this notion that since their intentions aren't spiteful that they are not being racist. But, you don't have to be a bigot to be a racist.

Racism is when you put an emphasis on racial differences. Racism isn't always a bad thing because it's undeniably obvious that we are all different, but the sword has a double edge and swings both ways so it cuts both ways.

These things aggravate folks of the Caucasian persuasion because we are scrutinized, so every little racist thing we say makes us out be hitler or super-bigots. Then you go and say something like this and all it does is swing the sword back at us again, but the cuts we take are not ok. We don't appreciate the privileged racism.

I'm sure it wasn't intended to be hurtful but it does aggravate people.

[garland81]

To Geir: Lengthy post. Lots of issues covered. Ever notice the satisfied stay quiet and the complainers speak up? Ever notice why alot of the jerks go no where in life while sometimes others who struggle hard enough succeed?

A canadian comic once said: "I was once asked by an american if our people or canadians all lived in igloos and I said to him 'Psh! Poor people live in igloos. I... have a snow fort.'"

Life, ultimately, is a balance and we constantly revolve around this wheel of fortune and misfortune. First starts off good then degrades into this awful era then back again into good fortune and back down once more.. revolving around in circles for the rest of your life. Nobody escapes this balance either. You think some jerk who said something ignorant is going to get away with it? Lol, nope! What comes around goes around.. eventually. That's how it works.

There is so much ignorance in the world and not enough teachers to teach them their own manners.. probably because the teachers aren't teaching or saying the right thing to jog their minds.

Just last week, I was talking to an Iraqi guy who is very tied up about his own religion and the current affairs of his country. He kept telling me about the holy wars that divided his people, about his religion's deities and pantheons, and the perceptions of he had towards other ethnic groups and all I saw was just strings among strings of resentful thread hidden inside his tone of so many things. But then he asked about my culture.

So I told him (in 1 hour) alot of the deepest teachings I've learned over the years and he was utterly shocked and mesmerized about the depth knowledge and wisdom of native elders. (Not trying to say we are the answer and everyone should convert lol).

What I'm trying to say is, these teachings were all harnessed from some place, extracted from some experience that it must've took aeons of trial and error just to obtain and fully realize these moral values and words of wisdom that the wise men now obtain.

Now, when you look at society now and all the problems going on, one has to ask themselves: how much twisting of a knife is needed before people start learning.. before the deeper creed is realized? If you could only say one thing to the world what would you say?

I would say this: "The vast majority of conflicts and fights and anger erupting throughout the world comes from one very source and that source is pain." (the other being ignorance). When you insult someone, you inflict pain, which later ignites into anger and the person offended.. retaliates, thus a conflict or war happens.

If you tell a kid he is bad, he will grow up thinking that he is. If you show the kid what he did was wrong and show how it affects other people, he will grow up understanding why.. and understanding is a powerful word.

(some native teachings for ya lol)

[garland81]

So, can I try some of your fry bread Nashoba? :P You could mail it to me. I'll send you my address through smoke signals. Do you understand morse code? lol

[Nessus]

Originally Posted by SuicideRUN

It is interesting, but you notice there's never questions like. What do white people think of Max Payne or Duke Nukem. Only when another race is the main character do people worry about what that race thinks about it.

Why would anyone wonder how white guys portrayed themselves? Basically almost all videogames are made by only 2 groups, Whites and Asians so when a game is made about another culture entirely that to my knowledge none of the team members belong to of course people are going to wonder how the portrayal is recieved. I think when people say things like, "Why does it even matter, I barely noticed", that this is disingenous and it's become how we are trained to act these days not to get tagged with the dreaded "R" word. I'm hoping HH and 3DR did a great job, so far it looks pretty good except for a few tiny things already mentioned, Too bad they didn't consult you guys before they made the game.

[CameO73]

It's all about looking at yourself instead of at the other. Other people can show you something about yourself (and vice versa). But some people don't want to see their true selves. Afraid something bad might show up. These fears manifest themselves as insecurity, anger, frustration, selfpity etc.

Racism is based on one of many fears: the fear that someone else is better/more beautiful than you. It says a lot about how you see yourself, by the way.

[Theonewayman]

Originally Posted by StainedCheeks

it is really cool to listen to you Wva cherokee. I wish You the best.

Yes me to.

[garland81]

Originally Posted by CameO73

It's all about looking at yourself instead of at the other. Other people can show you something about yourself (and vice versa). But some people don't want to see their true selves. Afraid something bad might show up. These fears manifest themselves as insecurity, anger, frustration, selfpity etc.

Racism is based on one of many fears: the fear that someone else is better/more beautiful than you. It says a lot about how you see yourself, by the way.

There's an ojibway ceremony related to that (fear i mean) when a boy gets of a certain age, usually around 12, he spends 3 days fasting in a sacred grove. The grove is usually miles away from his home and where there is no one around. He only has water to drink and must spend his three days. The purpose of the grove is many-fold.

During the days, it's not so bad.. just hot and you are left stewing in your own thoughts, but when it hits night time, because you are by yourself.. everything becomes terrifying. It's all pitch black and your ears become hyper accute and all ambient sounds blare out like crazy. Crickets, raccoons, bats, and other indistinguishable things sound throughout the night. Thoughts stew inside your head about evil spirits, wendigoes, sasquatches, and other predators that could easily hunt and take your life and there's no one around to protect you or save you if something happens.

It was meant to teach you about your own fears because when the morning hits, so does your humiliation when all you were afraid of were just crickets and raccoons. Understanding your fears diminishes your fears. Also, when you return home, you get a greater appreciation for food (because you were starving in the end) and people (because you just had a very intense experience).

As for the difference between what you want to see about one's self compared to who actually one is.. yeah.. I don't think the majority of racism is what that is. Racist opinions of other ethnic groups are usually the deluded perceptions passed on from one person to another or a improper interpretation of information.

Eg.: A bomb goes off in Iraq and kills some soldiers, some guy at home will say "$^%@en Iraqis!! What the hell is wrong with them?!? If I ever see one, I'll pump lead into those @$^*ers faces!!" or.. someone downtalks one ethnic group to another person and that other person's adrenaline kicks up and goes "Jesus ^%#&en christ! I hate those @#$^ers now!! If I ever see one of those $^%& I'm gonna take a bat to their face!!" which ends up happening. It's different for other people. Short-sighted, deluded opinions, perceptions, and/or interpretations are the core of it.

I say these things because that's what happened during the "Oka Crisis" in Canada 1990 when a bunch of suits built a golf course over an indian burial ground. Racism went to an all-high extreme then. You don't want to know how bad it was.

[Dae_Man]

Back on topic...

I love this thread, very informative and a great read.

Whilst I have only a part of American Indian in me (and I don't know any further than that, since it was my Dad's Dad and he never knew him), I'm very interested in the culture(s).

One of the things I like most is that the game does not show American Indians as savages or less-than-humans, as I've seen in far too many movies. The fact that the character you play is American Indian is pretty exciting for me.

I'm glad other Indians have seen the game as one that is taking goods steps, and I'm glad that the events I see in the game do have some truth in their background (despite being a little off.)

I love this game. Prior to checking out the demo, I wasnt too excited - simply because I thought the original stuff 3DR did would be better (I thought they were getting rid of most of the portal stuff.)

Great read everybody, and I'm glad Prey is being well recieved!

[Nashoba]

I think the other thing to consider is...that more than anything it's not race we are talking about when a certain ethnic group is asked, but culture.

If you look at the question: "What did Ative Americans think of Prey?" On the initial surface someone sensitive would say: "that's racist....no one ever asks what whites think about white portrayls" It has also been said in this thread that whites aren't aloud to be proud for fear of being racist. Valid points if you are looking at the very narrow definition of who you are....just skin color and phenotypal differences.

The problem with these perceptions that minorities are able to express pride and whites are not stems from the falacious thought that we (the minorities) are celebrating based on our race, with a few fringe exceptions, this is not the case.

Native Americans happen to have a shared history and similar cultures. Now see...originally pride was based on one's Nation...and still is to some degree. A Sioux was proud to be a Sioux...and all that entailed....they did not think of themselves as "Native American" they thought of themselves as Sioux. But now we are a scattered people, some of us can never vote in our Nations because an ancestor was not in the right place at the right time....or did not want to participate in the US's programs (talking about the Rolls and rolls numbers) In order for one to be say, Choctaw in my case , I have to have had an ancestor who got put on the rolls. It doesn't matter I'm half blood, I am cut off from my people because someone over 100 years ago didn't get counted. So I like others like me, being tribeless, cut off from our people to a degree, began connecting with others, and the Big picture Native American pride took root in the culture. Were the only race that can't legally claim to be something without showing an offical pedigree.
I'm a Native Artist...but I can't say that...because I'm not legally recognised as such....

So yeah...Native American has come to be a catch all for all the scattered tribes, recognizineg we have a shared culture.

But this goes for most of the minorities, Puerto Rican, Mexican, Indian (India), Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese...you get the idea.....

If you noticed....these are not races.....these are cultures, Nations.

With white pride it's no different......it's just not called "white pride" You celebrate being Irish, Scottish, German, British...American, (Not all white...but you celebreate the pride of where you came from....be it Italian, French, Spanish.....you get the idea)
Pride is about culture and heritage...not the color of your skin.

Hell I've known some proud Natives, who had a good percentage of Native in them (about 1/4), who were as white, blonde and green eyed as you could get, But they were raised in the culture, steeped in it's traditions, and they _were_ Native.

Is there Caucasian pride day? No, but Caucasion isn't a culture it's a phenotype, like Mongoloid is a phenotype. There's no Mongoloid day either.
But I'm willing to bet you are descended from something that _does_ have a pride day.

Don't limit your field veiw to skin color...that is racist....the rest...it's just cultural pride in a shared haritage among people who happen to share phenotypes.

wow, thanks heaps for the tokes off the peace pipe gentlemen. if we ever meet up in multiprey i will gaurd your spirit or take a frag for you. but iam about an 9 hr flight to the south pole so my lag limits me. I truely love where yous are coming from. now i will take one more toke off the peace pipe and hand it back..world peace will come some day, this I believe and you guys are respected in all parts of the world. Know this to be true, I have traveled and seen your images everywhere. i wish you long lasting inner peace......

[WVa Cherokee]

Technically there is no such thing as a "peace pipe" . That is a European term based on what they thought they were seeing. Still, the sentiment is appreciated .

Personally I can't wait to see what the rest of this game has to offer.

[garland81]

I think WVa is right on that one.. and Mr. Nashoba put out some really nice points out there that other people should listen to. I agree with him whole heartedly.

To Nashoba: hmm, half blood? I don't see people whose native in terms of how much of their blood is native, I sometimes see natives in terms of native mentality and how much a portion of it comes from native teachings and heritage.

I know a half blood who's a cop and looks perfectly white and he thinks he's being native by reciting the history of natives.. though he has absolutely no information in the native society or the way of life for that matter.

I also have a half brother who's half blood and he's a politician for the reserve and though he speaks, looks, and sometimes thinks like a white person, but he's becoming more native everyday by inheriting the mentality of the native spirit.

I also know full blood natives who absolutely do not act native at all (even sounding like a white person) as if they lost their heritage entirely, whom if you changed their skin color would ultimately be a white person.

Then, there are some full blood natives I know who don't act native at all, thinks like a white person, (sometimes are agressive) but you can tell they are native by their dialect, little gestures they do, little native sayings like "Eehhhhhhhh" or "Hooowaaa".

Then, finally there are people who are completely white, but think, talk, and act like a native person (even knowing the language) and if you changed their skin color, they would be.

There's a really distorted line between whom one should call a native or not. Maybe its the mentality, maybe its those little things, maybe its skin color, maybe its blood amount. It differs for different people questioning this.

(Btw, if anything I said is offense, you have my deepest apologize. It was not intended so)

(PS: There's definately gonna be a debate about that aspect itself lol cuz one could say alot of japanese buddhists share the mentality and teachings of a native elder but are not native at all.. or that one wise philosopher can know so many things about life and not touch the subject of natives and could be considered native just by what i said.. I'm probably not entirely right either when I say native mentality is being native. so Eh!)

[Nashoba]

Originally Posted by garland81

To Nashoba: hmm, half blood? I don't see people whose native in terms of how much of their blood is native, I sometimes see natives in terms of native mentality and how much a portion of it comes from native teachings and heritage.
(Btw, if anything I said is offense, you have my deepest apologize. It was not intended so)

No offense at all

When I mention I'm half blood, I merely refer to genetic proportions. It's just a sore point with me that I cannot legaly be part of my Nation, and cannot claim to be a native artist without being sued because I don't have a number that links to some government pedigree, and that we are the only race that has to prove this.

I agree with you that Native is a combination of many factors. I just get a little ranting about the roll card thing.

Even though I was raised in the culture, I still feel like I'm not "legitamate" sometimes because I don't have a card, and I'm still struggling with both langauges (Choctaw and Cherokee) since my mom refused to speak them and I only learned from my grandmother and had not placed any emphasis on it before she died (it wasn't important to me then...but now that I'm married and plan to have kids someday...I want my children to carry on the languages and traditions, so I regret not learning when I could )

[garland81]

I remember a story way back and I think it's about the Mi'Q Macs whom once lived in Nova Scotia canada and moved some people down south to america where some of their ancestors lived but they couldn't be legally recognized as native americans by the US because most of their people lived in the Nova Scotia area and it wasn't registered with some charter of aboriginal rights or something.

If I remember correctly, they had to go to court or the senate or something.. some legal battle and they had to fight (in court) just to earn the right of being recognized as a native american and they won. Maybe, that's something you could do research on.

But personally, I recognize you as a native for you have the native spirit. I hope that matters more than some legal documents.

[Gatinater]

It's not an issue of jealousy, far from it. It's an issue of tact.

I have a question regarding the term *Native American*

I'm Native to North America. Doesn't that make me a Native American? I'm not an imigrant nor am I a citizen by visa. Sure we could split hairs and concure that indian ancestors were here first, based on what historians believe, but that was them. So why are Cherokee still thought of as *Native Americans*

[garland81]

Good question. Probably resorts to the deeper meaning of the word native and what it means to us in comparison to what it means to other people. It's probably (like what Nashoba said earlier) based on phenotype... like saying the difference between japanese, tawainese, chinese, korean.. a more vague term would be oriental. As with native americans can be broken down to cherokee, ojibway, blackfoot, beothuks (extinct), cree, etc.

Native Americans meaning.. they and their ancestors were native to america. Some would argue that native ancestors themselves aren't also native to america and their ancestors crossed the berring strait bridge from asia to alaska.. while other paleontologists (small few) counter this that all were born in north america and crossed the berring strait bridge from alaska to Asia (which alot of natives like better lol) but of course would also work for everyone else. :P Who knows.

But when identifying, we just go by the phenotype or strand of homo sapiens known as Native Americans.

[Gibaholic]

well, it's not bad in terms of respect. Atleast it's not like the RV Winnebago.

[garland81]

Lol. I like your signature Gibaholic. Gotta remember that one.

its cultural, like origanal residents. some cultures thrived on stealing and takeing while others survived by giveing and execpting the earth as our owner. your original culture might have been mixed by the vast amounts of people running from plunders. history hasent changed much, it is still happening today. tousands of people have to leave thier original residency to exscape the greed of war. off topic now but one of the most uneducated thing i have ever heard someone say is that war is used to control the worlds population. this remark is scary to think about. then to get the masses of a superpower to think like that is very bad. i tell my kids there is no monsters, but at the same time i tell them that some people think like monsters. we are all native earthlings and we each have the right to think for ourselfs, thats a gift but greed has made it evil. most of the planet is starving right now, what can we do? realize our mistakes. peace..

[x2pixel]

Originally Posted by WVa Cherokee

I came across this game yesterday when I was bored and browsing through the Xbox Live Marketplace. Downloaded the demo and was really excited to see not only an Indian, but a Cherokee (I am Cherokee if you haven't guessed by my username ) as the "hero". Naturally my first thought was, "ok, what'd they screw up." Let's face it, the entertainment industry doesn't have a good track record when it comes to showing the real face of Indian people.
..snip...

brilliant post. Some very interesting POV, and I learnt some very interesting stuff. Thanks

edit: and having read through the rest, wow, some great discussion.

Who would've thought it from a FPS forum