Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long)

henrikrh · 11-15-2005, 01:25 PM

I've been mulling this little concept over in my head for a while and I think it would really revitalise the FPS forumula, which I feel hasn't seen a true innovation since the gravity gun in HL2 (though that was quite recent

)

Ok, so here goes my idea:

FPS games (Single player in mind only) rely heavily on triggers. The player enters a room, 2 pig-cops spawn in the next room. Player enters a hallway, an explosion is heard and the screen shakes etc. These are the fundamental building blocks of many shooting games.

One large problem with shooters is that you will get the same experience everytime you play, same levels, the only difference is how many different paths you can take, which weapons you choose to use and some smaller detials whihc are different due to the AIs reacions.

My idea is variable triggers. Rather than designing a level with 50 triggers along the way that do cool things and immerse you in the game, there should be 500 triggers, but not all should occur. Say each trigger has a 10% chance of happening, you will sitll only have 50 of these 'events' happening, but they will be different, as determined by chance, each time you play.

You might then log on to a forum and say "I loved the bit where the two pig-cops were playing the slots as you burst into the casino in the vegas level of DNF". Then someone might be like "When was that? When i got into the casino a pig cop was slapping up a vegas babe, so I booted him in the face!"

This would work the same with things such as key cards. In the code rather than the red key card being in a set room it could be in 1 of 5 locations, determined at random each time you play the level.

These elements of unpredicatability would add huge replay value to a shooter and would also make the experience feel less linear and less scripted in my opinion.

The main problem I see with my idea is that it would be a serious strain on designers, designing anywhere between 2x or 10x as many scenarios. This would in turn lengthen the production time and therefore raise costs. Also it might seem less worthwhile since not every play is going to experience every variable.

Oh, and i'm not htinking specifically for DNF, despite the examples, lord knows (and by lord I mean Duke) that we don't need anything that extends the production time of DNF.

Cerberus_e · 11-15-2005, 01:36 PM

I don't see it as a problem that the experience is the same, that adds to the nostalgia

henrikrh · 11-15-2005, 01:38 PM

Well the experience would be largely the same, the strucure of the levels would be unchanged. But when you know theres an enemy around the corner, and you know exactly where everything is then part of the game is missing. Just adds the spice of unpredictability.

Cerberus_e · 11-15-2005, 01:46 PM

as long as it's only for normal enemies like you always encounter, and not for boss fights and even normal enemies (but the big type that you rarely encounter), I'm all for it

why not for the rare strong enemies (eg: battlelords) or bosses? because that would destroy nostalgia

if your favourite strong enemy intro is changed

but for normal enemies it's not a problem, because their intro is not really memorable

henrikrh · 11-15-2005, 01:53 PM

Yeah, I can agree with that. Just small things, but enough that writting a walk-through for most parts of the game would be hard to do cause of the unpredictability. Like you couldn't tell someone where they could find the RPG early in teh game because it might not be the same for them, might be hidden somewhere else.

colmtourque · 11-15-2005, 02:38 PM

I like the idea except I agree in regards to the boss fights, and I'd like to add that key hunts can really be annoying at times without having to add to them that they can move around, otherwise really cool idea.

roryok · 11-15-2005, 02:48 PM

Quote:

colmtourque said:
I like the idea except I agree in regards to the boss fights, and I'd like to add that key hunts can really be annoying at times without having to add to them that they can move around, otherwise really cool idea.

yeah, if keys stayed in the same place it'd be cool. Altho it'd be a lot of work to write 10 scripted sequences for a room instead of one, just to add replayability.

Micki! · 11-15-2005, 04:24 PM

I like the idea, but i don't think it will happen in DNF...
However, if you have a good scripted sequence idea, then post your thought in the "Scripted sequences" thread...

Welcome to the 3DR forums btw... Enjoy your stay, and make sure you check the various other boards around here...

Murder · 11-15-2005, 04:42 PM

Give me a good story that compells me to play..some good gameplay i dunn care about the rest.(Example Max Payne)

Micki! · 11-15-2005, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Murder said:
Give me a good story that compells me to play..some good gameplay i dunn care about the rest.(Example Max Payne)

Well, Prey will have a good storyline... And the Gameplay looks promising...
We don't know anything regarding this being in DNF, but i bet the Gamplay will kick major ass...

Revenant · 11-15-2005, 04:49 PM

I'm playing for the story. It's like a movie to me, they don't change but when a good one (movie) comes along you think to yourself when it's over,"Man was that a good movie!" More often than not you'll find yourself watching it again and again even when it comes to PPV or your local station way down the line; buying the DVD etc etc.

Computer games work the same for me. If it's a great story that had me immersed, than I find myself playing the single player over just to see if there were any little things I may have missed.

Then there's always the Fragfest in Multiplayer even if the SP sucked

Assault · 11-15-2005, 05:29 PM

It’s a good idea. It would be better than playing the game for the second time just to find all the secrets, when you get to experience different things that you never saw the first run through.

When I played Metal Gear Solid, I remember finishing it three times and on the third time a mouse stole my keycard. I didn’t see that coming and it was really awesome that it didn’t happen before.

With this idea you can also hide lots of Easter-eggs.

hell-angel · 11-16-2005, 01:28 AM

I want a great gameplay, if that is good then the story is of little importance, but the ending must be adequate as well. IMO that is.

Falciform · 11-16-2005, 12:47 PM

/sarcasm

Well, since the secret is out I might as well say it. This is why DNF is taking so long. They've been programming in so many different scenarios that the player can almost certainly never experience the same game twice. The game will progressively save what scenarios have been seen so that a future game can make a check against previous games, ensuring that it doesn't have a large batch of previously seen scenarios. There will also be cheat codes that can setup certain scenarios (in case you have a favorite). At the end of a game you can opt to print out a file that gives codes to all the scenarios you saw, but it keeps the codes for unseen scenarios secret.

Cerberus_e · 11-16-2005, 12:52 PM

that's actually a good idea

Revenant · 11-16-2005, 01:04 PM

Original to say the least

Assault · 11-16-2005, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Falciform said:
/sarcasm

Well, since the secret is out I might as well say it. This is why DNF is taking so long. They've been programming in so many different scenarios that the player can almost certainly never experience the same game twice. The game will progressively save what scenarios have been seen so that a future game can make a check against previous games, ensuring that it doesn't have a large batch of previously seen scenarios. There will also be cheat codes that can setup certain scenarios (in case you have a favorite). At the end of a game you can opt to print out a file that gives codes to all the scenarios you saw, but it keeps the codes for unseen scenarios secret.

That "Sarcasm" tag should change to "Please make this:" tag. Or am I wrong? :P

roryok · 11-17-2005, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Assault said:

Quote:

Falciform said:
/sarcasm

Well, since the secret is out I might as well say it. This is why DNF is taking so long. They've been programming in so many different scenarios that the player can almost certainly never experience the same game twice. The game will progressively save what scenarios have been seen so that a future game can make a check against previous games, ensuring that it doesn't have a large batch of previously seen scenarios. There will also be cheat codes that can setup certain scenarios (in case you have a favorite). At the end of a game you can opt to print out a file that gives codes to all the scenarios you saw, but it keeps the codes for unseen scenarios secret.

That "Sarcasm" tag should change to "Please make this:" tag. Or am I wrong? :P

In the extremely unlikely event that they HAVE been implementing this, cool.

But if they haven't, do we really want to give them an idea that could literally double or triple the development time???

Falciform · 11-17-2005, 11:07 AM

Would you all consider a game addition such as that a revolution or just a good idea?

mysteryperfecta · 11-17-2005, 12:41 PM

Welcome-

We've discussed similar things in the past. I'm a fan of the idea. It's not a difficult proposition, but time would be a consideration.

It would also be fun if 3dr created an easter egg where special skins/models/effects would appear on special occasions. For example, on Halloween, the original models would be replaced with Halloween-themed monsters, spooky music would be added, along with other elements (black cats, jack-o-lanterns, etc). Christmas would bring snow, elves and snowmen, christmas decor, etc. Gameplay would remain unchanged, so story continuity would be effected (temporarily, and I would only do it for one level), but it would be a fun surprise.

lamuh · 11-17-2005, 03:52 PM

[img]http://forumimages.*****.com/images/smilies/emot-cawg.gif[/img]
Replayability is a function of variables and freedom. COD2 has zero replayability since it is scripted and there is no freedom nor physics. HL2 had a lot of physics but zero variables, so it was marginally replayable. SMOD for HL2 has both many variables and physics and freedom so its the most fun:
http://forum.facepunchstudios.com/sh...ad.php?t=70774

I guess what I want is exaggeration of blood and jibs, violence and realism. Do you see my point?

Twin · 11-17-2005, 05:21 PM

i'll replay the game if there are enough 'cool' parts for me to want to replay the game again...

the only game that has enough cool parts that i've playd recently was half-life 2...for some reason after finishing that game it just made me want to play it again and again and again...and i loved it every time because there are so many 'WHOA!' parts in that game that you just want to see them again AND it cool getting to them also...

the thing is that there were also lots of cool parts with quake 4 and fear but the thing that i personally found with those games was that even though some of the good bits were better than the half-life 2 good bits it just seemed like a pain playing those games to get to those parts again...

DNF needs to be good from start to finish with even better bits inbetween for me to really enjoy the game and replay it again...

Nessus · 11-17-2005, 05:52 PM

I almost never replay games, what I do is go back and load up cool sections for some fun.

hell-angel · 11-18-2005, 01:31 AM

Quote:

mysteryperfecta said:
Welcome-

We've discussed similar things in the past. I'm a fan of the idea. It's not a difficult proposition, but time would be a consideration.

It would also be fun if 3dr created an easter egg where special skins/models/effects would appear on special occasions. For example, on Halloween, the original models would be replaced with Halloween-themed monsters, spooky music would be added, along with other elements (black cats, jack-o-lanterns, etc). Christmas would bring snow, elves and snowmen, christmas decor, etc. Gameplay would remain unchanged, so story continuity would be effected (temporarily, and I would only do it for one level), but it would be a fun surprise.

Yeah, a santa claus boss, I allways wanted to shoot that copy cat.

Assault · 11-18-2005, 04:03 AM

There is a BIG common mistake people are making. Giving you multiple paths to explore, lots of interactivity, many secrets and skill systems don’t make the game repayable as much as you would think. However, those are good additions and will help with it, but they don’t push it enough.
What really counts is the fact that the game is totally awesome for the player; if it has many memorable moments, the gameplay keeps surprising and doesn’t get repetitive to fast. If they don’t include long frustrating parts (EX: Stupid meaningless jumping puzzles) and if the atmosphere pulls you into the game. Those would be the things that would make you go play over again. If they wouldn’t be in a game, then you would have a sense of "It was cool, but I don’t want to go back over those few damn boring levels".
So you keep the game fresh and add those extras you guys are talking about and you got yourself a winner.

hell-angel · 11-18-2005, 05:06 AM

Assault is correct, and we have all been saying the same thing (well, most of us anyway) It's all nice, but if the gameplay doesn't rock the game will suck.

Meaning that the gameplay (athmosphere, movement, level design, basically the feel of the game) is good, the game doesn't need that much high fancy stuff.

Cerberus_e · 11-18-2005, 05:59 PM

Quote:

henrikrh said:
This would work the same with things such as key cards. In the code rather than the red key card being in a set room it could be in 1 of 5 locations, determined at random each time you play the level.

These elements of unpredicatability would add huge replay value to a shooter and would also make the experience feel less linear and less scripted in my opinion.

I just think of something: No One Lives Forever 2 has that feature!
the game has lots of documents and papers put on tables, in desks, in drawers, in cupboards... if you find one of them you get points that you can use to upgrade health, armor, movement speed... it's optional. (you get even more points if the document was part of a secondary objective)
but sometimes the primary objective (that you have to complete before you can finish the mission) tells you find a certain document. that document is then hidden in paper bins or drawers. but always on a random place each time you play the game!

specific example: in one of the russian levels, you have to go on top of a mountain. there are about 3 houses there, and a communication tower.
your primary objective is to find 2 explosives to blow up the communication tower.
those 2 explosives can each of the two seperately be found in the three houses, in one of the trash bins, cupboards, desks, valises, boxes...
for example you'll find one explosive in the trash bin of house 1 and the other one in a drawer of house 2, or you'll find both in the third house (one in a box the other lying on a table, for example). there are countless of scenarios, each time random when you start the game

Quote:

henrikrh said:
The main problem I see with my idea is that it would be a serious strain on designers, designing anywhere between 2x or 10x as many scenarios. This would in turn lengthen the production time and therefore raise costs. Also it might seem less worthwhile since not every play is going to experience every variable.

well, for keycards (or things that function as keycards, like the explosive example) this rule doesn't apply, because it doesn't take long to make!

you just include around 20 places where an explosive can be when the game is started, and script the game to choose 2 of them

it's a very cool feature that fits no one lives forever 2 perfectly! but it depends from game to game.

DissidentRage · 11-18-2005, 09:30 PM

Many of the things that have worked to the advantage of developers to add replay value to a game seem to slowly be disappearing with the amount of games coming out. Unlockables that are seen as you progress through the game, level editors, M/SDKs, variances in game progression don't seem to be becoming the norm from my experiences. Many that come out now seem to attempt to simulate this stuff to a degree, but more seem to be heading straight into only making the game. Personally I kind of prefer linearity because I don't like going to areas where I feel like I'm missing something, but every now and then it's done right- see Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines. I really think 3DR knows what they've got to do, they've been in the business long enough and it's about time for them to take back their throne.

AdelaeR · 11-19-2005, 07:45 AM

That's a great idea and many like myself have come to this idea before ... but after all this time of development on DNF the question now is:

Does DNF already have this implemented?

YES => Great thinkin George we love ya

NO => This brings us to other questions:

Will it be added to DNF?
How long does it take to implement it?
Is this extra value worth the wait?

I say: we've waited SO long now that a few extra years of waiting won't hurt

11-15-2005, 01:25 PM	#1
henrikrh	Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) I've been mulling this little concept over in my head for a while and I think it would really revitalise the FPS forumula, which I feel hasn't seen a true innovation since the gravity gun in HL2 (though that was quite recent ) Ok, so here goes my idea: FPS games (Single player in mind only) rely heavily on triggers. The player enters a room, 2 pig-cops spawn in the next room. Player enters a hallway, an explosion is heard and the screen shakes etc. These are the fundamental building blocks of many shooting games. One large problem with shooters is that you will get the same experience everytime you play, same levels, the only difference is how many different paths you can take, which weapons you choose to use and some smaller detials whihc are different due to the AIs reacions. My idea is variable triggers. Rather than designing a level with 50 triggers along the way that do cool things and immerse you in the game, there should be 500 triggers, but not all should occur. Say each trigger has a 10% chance of happening, you will sitll only have 50 of these 'events' happening, but they will be different, as determined by chance, each time you play. You might then log on to a forum and say "I loved the bit where the two pig-cops were playing the slots as you burst into the casino in the vegas level of DNF". Then someone might be like "When was that? When i got into the casino a pig cop was slapping up a vegas babe, so I booted him in the face!" This would work the same with things such as key cards. In the code rather than the red key card being in a set room it could be in 1 of 5 locations, determined at random each time you play the level. These elements of unpredicatability would add huge replay value to a shooter and would also make the experience feel less linear and less scripted in my opinion. The main problem I see with my idea is that it would be a serious strain on designers, designing anywhere between 2x or 10x as many scenarios. This would in turn lengthen the production time and therefore raise costs. Also it might seem less worthwhile since not every play is going to experience every variable. Oh, and i'm not htinking specifically for DNF, despite the examples, lord knows (and by lord I mean Duke) that we don't need anything that extends the production time of DNF.

11-15-2005, 01:36 PM	#2
Cerberus_e	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) I don't see it as a problem that the experience is the same, that adds to the nostalgia

11-15-2005, 01:38 PM	#3
henrikrh	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) Well the experience would be largely the same, the strucure of the levels would be unchanged. But when you know theres an enemy around the corner, and you know exactly where everything is then part of the game is missing. Just adds the spice of unpredictability.

11-15-2005, 01:46 PM	#4
Cerberus_e	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) as long as it's only for normal enemies like you always encounter, and not for boss fights and even normal enemies (but the big type that you rarely encounter), I'm all for it why not for the rare strong enemies (eg: battlelords) or bosses? because that would destroy nostalgia if your favourite strong enemy intro is changed but for normal enemies it's not a problem, because their intro is not really memorable

11-15-2005, 01:53 PM	#5
henrikrh	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) Yeah, I can agree with that. Just small things, but enough that writting a walk-through for most parts of the game would be hard to do cause of the unpredictability. Like you couldn't tell someone where they could find the RPG early in teh game because it might not be the same for them, might be hidden somewhere else.

11-15-2005, 02:38 PM	#6
colmtourque	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) I like the idea except I agree in regards to the boss fights, and I'd like to add that key hunts can really be annoying at times without having to add to them that they can move around, otherwise really cool idea.

11-15-2005, 04:24 PM	#8
Micki!	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) I like the idea, but i don't think it will happen in DNF... However, if you have a good scripted sequence idea, then post your thought in the "Scripted sequences" thread... Welcome to the 3DR forums btw... Enjoy your stay, and make sure you check the various other boards around here... __________________ A true genius does not need boundaries such as 'common sense'

11-15-2005, 04:42 PM	#9
Murder	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) Give me a good story that compells me to play..some good gameplay i dunn care about the rest.(Example Max Payne) __________________ I would rather feel pain than feel nothing

11-15-2005, 04:49 PM	#11
Revenant	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) I'm playing for the story. It's like a movie to me, they don't change but when a good one (movie) comes along you think to yourself when it's over,"Man was that a good movie!" More often than not you'll find yourself watching it again and again even when it comes to PPV or your local station way down the line; buying the DVD etc etc. Computer games work the same for me. If it's a great story that had me immersed, than I find myself playing the single player over just to see if there were any little things I may have missed. Then there's always the Fragfest in Multiplayer even if the SP sucked

11-15-2005, 05:29 PM	#12
Assault	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) It’s a good idea. It would be better than playing the game for the second time just to find all the secrets, when you get to experience different things that you never saw the first run through. When I played Metal Gear Solid, I remember finishing it three times and on the third time a mouse stole my keycard. I didn’t see that coming and it was really awesome that it didn’t happen before. With this idea you can also hide lots of Easter-eggs.

11-16-2005, 01:28 AM	#13
hell-angel	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) I want a great gameplay, if that is good then the story is of little importance, but the ending must be adequate as well. IMO that is.

11-16-2005, 12:47 PM	#14
Falciform	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) /sarcasm Well, since the secret is out I might as well say it. This is why DNF is taking so long. They've been programming in so many different scenarios that the player can almost certainly never experience the same game twice. The game will progressively save what scenarios have been seen so that a future game can make a check against previous games, ensuring that it doesn't have a large batch of previously seen scenarios. There will also be cheat codes that can setup certain scenarios (in case you have a favorite). At the end of a game you can opt to print out a file that gives codes to all the scenarios you saw, but it keeps the codes for unseen scenarios secret.

11-16-2005, 12:52 PM	#15
Cerberus_e	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) that's actually a good idea

11-16-2005, 01:04 PM	#16
Revenant	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) Original to say the least

11-17-2005, 11:07 AM	#19
Falciform	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) Would you all consider a game addition such as that a revolution or just a good idea?

11-17-2005, 12:41 PM	#20
mysteryperfecta	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) Welcome- We've discussed similar things in the past. I'm a fan of the idea. It's not a difficult proposition, but time would be a consideration. It would also be fun if 3dr created an easter egg where special skins/models/effects would appear on special occasions. For example, on Halloween, the original models would be replaced with Halloween-themed monsters, spooky music would be added, along with other elements (black cats, jack-o-lanterns, etc). Christmas would bring snow, elves and snowmen, christmas decor, etc. Gameplay would remain unchanged, so story continuity would be effected (temporarily, and I would only do it for one level), but it would be a fun surprise. __________________ "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have.” Thomas Jefferson

11-17-2005, 03:52 PM	#21
lamuh	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) [img]http://forumimages.*****.com/images/smilies/emot-cawg.gif[/img] Replayability is a function of variables and freedom. COD2 has zero replayability since it is scripted and there is no freedom nor physics. HL2 had a lot of physics but zero variables, so it was marginally replayable. SMOD for HL2 has both many variables and physics and freedom so its the most fun: http://forum.facepunchstudios.com/sh...ad.php?t=70774 I guess what I want is exaggeration of blood and jibs, violence and realism. Do you see my point?

11-17-2005, 05:21 PM	#22
Twin	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) i'll replay the game if there are enough 'cool' parts for me to want to replay the game again... the only game that has enough cool parts that i've playd recently was half-life 2...for some reason after finishing that game it just made me want to play it again and again and again...and i loved it every time because there are so many 'WHOA!' parts in that game that you just want to see them again AND it cool getting to them also... the thing is that there were also lots of cool parts with quake 4 and fear but the thing that i personally found with those games was that even though some of the good bits were better than the half-life 2 good bits it just seemed like a pain playing those games to get to those parts again... DNF needs to be good from start to finish with even better bits inbetween for me to really enjoy the game and replay it again... __________________ "CHECK mah bad self....OW!" "Cha'mone MuthaF**KAH! heeee heeee" "He clobbers the mob as....BLACK BELT JONES!"

11-17-2005, 05:52 PM	#23
Nessus	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) I almost never replay games, what I do is go back and load up cool sections for some fun. __________________ "Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book." Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 BC)

11-18-2005, 04:03 AM	#25
Assault	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) There is a BIG common mistake people are making. Giving you multiple paths to explore, lots of interactivity, many secrets and skill systems don’t make the game repayable as much as you would think. However, those are good additions and will help with it, but they don’t push it enough. What really counts is the fact that the game is totally awesome for the player; if it has many memorable moments, the gameplay keeps surprising and doesn’t get repetitive to fast. If they don’t include long frustrating parts (EX: Stupid meaningless jumping puzzles) and if the atmosphere pulls you into the game. Those would be the things that would make you go play over again. If they wouldn’t be in a game, then you would have a sense of "It was cool, but I don’t want to go back over those few damn boring levels". So you keep the game fresh and add those extras you guys are talking about and you got yourself a winner.

11-18-2005, 05:06 AM	#26
hell-angel	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) Assault is correct, and we have all been saying the same thing (well, most of us anyway) It's all nice, but if the gameplay doesn't rock the game will suck. Meaning that the gameplay (athmosphere, movement, level design, basically the feel of the game) is good, the game doesn't need that much high fancy stuff.

11-18-2005, 09:30 PM	#28
DissidentRage	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) Many of the things that have worked to the advantage of developers to add replay value to a game seem to slowly be disappearing with the amount of games coming out. Unlockables that are seen as you progress through the game, level editors, M/SDKs, variances in game progression don't seem to be becoming the norm from my experiences. Many that come out now seem to attempt to simulate this stuff to a degree, but more seem to be heading straight into only making the game. Personally I kind of prefer linearity because I don't like going to areas where I feel like I'm missing something, but every now and then it's done right- see Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines. I really think 3DR knows what they've got to do, they've been in the business long enough and it's about time for them to take back their throne. __________________ Alt for djevelen!

11-19-2005, 07:45 AM	#29
AdelaeR	Re: Single Player FPSs / Replayability (long) That's a great idea and many like myself have come to this idea before ... but after all this time of development on DNF the question now is: Does DNF already have this implemented? YES => Great thinkin George we love ya NO => This brings us to other questions: Will it be added to DNF? How long does it take to implement it? Is this extra value worth the wait? I say: we've waited SO long now that a few extra years of waiting won't hurt