was the art in Duke ripped off?

[Bonesnapper]

Once again, this was back in the day, things like this were pretty common.

[avatar_58]

That doesn't make it okay.

[Bonesnapper]

Of course today its wrong, but back then everyone did it, because video games werent very common. Why go through the trouble of making the textures when you could borrow some?

[Mr.Fibbles]

Originally Posted by theHunted

I agree, those numbers are far away from having a useful meaning and it was a bit of a silly point to show. On the other hand you don't just stumble upon sprites that similar just by having similar inspiration. Even for those restricted amounts of colors and image resolutions it's practically impossible to come up with something like that just by looking at a couple of other games and getting their inspiration.

Originally Posted by avatar_58

What in gods name are you talking about? They are pixel to pixel copies, they've just been resized according to how they were needed. The one rocket had it's top and bottom glued together to form the barrier in Duke, but even an untrained eye can see they are the same.

A single pixel can be something like 16~32 bits. If any one of those bits are different, the pixel is different. Hexadecimal/Binary coding would tell you that. The difference between shades of green or orange may only be noticeable in the actual "code" of the image, especially with the technology of today. Same shape, yes, but not the "same" sprite. It is more of a technicality in copyright law than anything else. Vanilla Ice (Ice Ice Baby) and Queen (Under Pressure) comes to mind. The bassline is practically identical, but Vanilla Ice claims he added some chings or something to make it different.
If the guy who made this site made it right (with actual html and not just a single image file) I would show you, but:
The flamethrower is most likely a copy with change in colors (were there programs to do that in 1991?)--picture taken then changed.
The platform is thematically similar, but not the same. Colors, even the design, is different.--inspired by, but probably not copied.
The Rocket is actually quite different. In Duke the top is wider, darker, and the tip is dropped down into the fin. The shading on the bottom is completely different. The light is coming from a different side and the specularity is altered.--inspired by, most likely not copied.
The concrete can get the same treatment as the flamethrower. . .
The pillar/wall is shaded the same, but (aside from the shade of the red and presence of anything underneath it) there are differences in shape; as slight as they may be.
Orange pillar could be treated like the flamethrower.
The organic ground (orangish redish stuff) is not even that close.--inspired, most likely not stolen
vine like object is similar in theme, but not really that much like Turrican.--inspired, most likely not stolen.
The green birdy from Savage is almost identical, but in Savage there are animations etc. --copied, but altered.
Organic earthish stuff is close, palette is different and the overall texture feel is different. --inspired, but maybe not stolen.
metalish skull like thing is almost identical at that spot, but not throughout. --copied, altered, appended to some original stuff.

Originally Posted by avatar_58

I'm sorry but there is no excuse for this shit. I don't care if IS 3DRealms, this is blatent asset theft. Case closed. If there are any differences they can be explained as resizing, palette differences or that they were ripped from a screenshot rather than the source.

What really makes this sting is how 3DRealms wasn't called out on this and how they continue to sell the games in question! This company makes some quality work so it blows my mind that they had to even do this in the first place.

Did they pay anything to the one's they ripped off? Is the developer of Turrican still around to even care?

1. It was Apogee, not 3DRealms.
2. It is asset theft, they took the sprites and altered them enough to make them technically different. However, it isn't plagiarism to the extent that you make it out to be. Consider it a paraphrase of what the other games had.
3. Does it really matter? It was 16 years ago.

I am not saying there isn't evidence of similarity, but you cannot say they just ripped graphics freely and didn't put any effort into the game.

[avatar_58]

What other examples can you come up with that are this blatent though? I've seen some games with questionable textures but I just assumed it came from a stock CD.

At first I thought this Duke thing was the same deal, except why were so many things similar to Turrican?

[Bonesnapper]

Well dont feel bad, countless people have "stolen" from duke3d. Games like Redneck Rampage etc

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by Mr.Fibbles

1. It was Apogee, not 3DRealms.

Apogee IS 3Drealms, look up the faq.

I am not saying there isn't evidence of similarity, but you cannot say they just ripped graphics freely and didn't put any effort into the game.

I don't recall saying that at all. Duke Nukem is one of my favourite DOS platformers, which is why this bugs me a little. The real question is why you are defending this? If a company did this today (on a grander scale than GSC's light incident) would you? It seems to me a lot of people are quick to defend a company they like.

I love Apogee/3DRealms but come on now, this isn't acceptable. If they had ripped off your own assests would you be so kind? Also don't you find this a tad hypocritical anyway? 3DRealms is very adamant about people stealing Duke3D's assests and likeness yet it's okay for them to?

[Mr.Fibbles]

This predates Apogee, they weren't 3DRealms then. 3DRealms is Apogee now, but at this time they weren't.
Today, people are looking for this; then they weren't. With the current technology it is both easier to steal and to make your own graphics. If any of the major gaming companies took something I made, and I could actually prove it (which isn't that easy to do), I would be honored that something I made was good enough to go into a game. I would be a bit upset that no credit was given, but I don't think I would sue them over it unless it was really worth the time and energy. A simple letter asking for credit or proof otherwise would suffice me.
I am defending that Apogee did not just steal graphics. There was still a lot of work put into the graphics which were mentioned on that "site" and the other textures used for the game.
What you are doing is trying to place current copyright and post IP/Microsoft laws and regulations on times before all that existed. Current laws cannot be applied to past offenses, unlike ancient times (Rome and Athens come to mind). You couldn't have sent a former slave owner to jail in 1900 in the US, it just didn't happen. The law was passed and they gave up their slaves. Events before a law cannot be cited as offenses to that law.
In the early 90's you could give your friend your MSDos 6.0 disks and there wasn't a real problem with that. Now you have to pay $200+ dollars for Windows Vista for every computer you want to run it on. Did Turrican have copyrights on its content? Was there even a thing such as Intellectual Property?

[avatar_58]

Once again you've entered a realm you know nothing about. Believe it or not but 1991 was NOT that long ago, nor was it some lawless time where you could get away with anything. I mean, with your assumptions we could assert that Abandonware is legal. They had copyrights and Intellectual Property laws, and could nail you if crossed the lines. There were multiple examples of this when people were ripping of Street Fighter, and they didn't even use the original graphics!

In the early 90's you could NOT give your friend a copy of DOS. Just because it was easy doesn't make it legal. Don't you remember that cheesy "Don't copy that floppy" video? It was just as illegal, but back then it was near impossible to catch. Copyright laws for games mirror book laws, and have been around long before the 90's.

I'm pretty much done debating this though because this:

"If any of the major gaming companies took something I made, and I could actually prove it (which isn't that easy to do), I would be honored that something I made was good enough to go into a game"

..is the strangest fanboy post I've ever read, and I've been here during the draz/mm wars. I can't honestly believe you are defending asset theft. I don't get it.

I seem to recall a thread a year ago where a cell phone game was found to be using many of Duke's sprites and some of the HRP's work. People were very upset, as they should be. I don't think they felt "honoured" at all.

[WoodenSword]

ok,

Isn't possible that both games just bought/used textures-objects from the same art library? Maybe they didn't create the art themselves -they used the same library available in the market.

[SonnyBonds]

I doubt that. For one thing, Duke 1&2 uses too many textures from the same game (Turrican) and I haven't seen other games using that art (the vine thing etc).
Also, they also ripped an enemy and I doubt enemies would be part of a package like that, at least it's likely I would've seen it somewhere else as I played a ton of old games.

[DragonflyWolfTen]

This is similar to a metal band using some of the same power chords that Tony Iomi invented. On this subject if Tony Iomi never lost parts of his fingers he would of never invented the power chords that we all know and love now.

[Ras]

You don't seriously think Tony Iommi invented the power chord, do you? I hope I'm reading you wrong.

[Sharpie]

DUKE NUKEM isnt even an original NAME! for god sake they copied the name from CAPTAIN PLANET! i had no idea about all this stuff until now 3DR are lucky that DUKE 3D was original!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Nu...tain_Planet%29

[DeeperThought]

Originally Posted by Sharpie

DUKE NUKEM isnt even an original NAME! for god sake they copied the name from CAPTAIN PLANET!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Nu...tain_Planet%29

[DragonflyWolfTen]

Originally Posted by Ras

You don't seriously think Tony Iommi invented the power chord, do you? I hope I'm reading you wrong.

When Tony was in his late teens he worked at a job that uses table saws and equipment like this. On his last day before going pro with his music he lost parts of his fingers to the saw. This deeply hurt him as he only wanted to play the guitar. His playing style had to change due to the pain from the lack of finger tips. he emerged from the depression and pain with the darkest and heaviest style the world has ever heard. It was through pain that the real prince of darkness was born. Tony Iommi is with out a doubt the father of heavy metal.

Here is a link to a web site managed by some qwak named Joe You might even know this joe fellow form some other lame ass web site

[Ras]

I know all of that, but he didn't invent the power chord by any stretch. I don't know who first played them, but I know that Chuck Berry was playing double stops when Tony Iommi was in short pants. Not to take anything away from him at all. I dig Sabbath.

[Mr.Fibbles]

Originally Posted by Sharpie

DUKE NUKEM isnt even an original NAME! for god sake they copied the name from CAPTAIN PLANET! i had no idea about all this stuff until now 3DR are lucky that DUKE 3D was original!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Nu...tain_Planet%29

They got the rights for Duke Nukem. For a brief time they changed the name to Nukum, but soon after they realized that they could use the name Nukem.
Besides, they didn't steal the name, I am pretty sure I heard that they never even heard of the guy in Captain Planet, being that it was a kids show.

The first Duke Nukem game was titled Duke Nukem, but Apogee learned that this name might have already been trademarked, so they changed it to Duke Nukum for the 2.0 revision. The name was later discovered not to be trademarked, so the spelling Duke Nukem was restored for Duke Nukem II and all successive Duke games, and is preferred even when referring to the original. The trademark in question was that of Captain Planet's Duke Nukem character.

[avatar_58]

I don't think anyone can blame them for not watching Captain Planet.

[Bonesnapper]

Originally Posted by Sharpie

DUKE NUKEM isnt even an original NAME! for god sake they copied the name from CAPTAIN PLANET! i had no idea about all this stuff until now 3DR are lucky that DUKE 3D was original!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Nu...tain_Planet%29

LIES
YOU ARE FILLED WITH LIES.

Heh, this is old news, seriously.

[SonnyBonds]

The Duke 3D box reminds me a lot of the Doom box art but that's just where they got the inspiration from probably. And good thing too, the box art is kickass

[avatar_58]

Originally Posted by SonnyBonds

The Duke 3D box reminds me a lot of the Doom box art but that's just where they got the inspiration from probably. And good thing too, the box art is kickass

Actually - http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Arm...C10282760.jpeg

[SonnyBonds]

What about that? That's not similar at all!

[Dopefish7590]

The story is that 3DR thought "Duke Nukem" WAS original, but when they heard that the name was already taken, they quickly changed the name to "Duke Nukum" to avoid a lawsuit. But after realizing this was unture, they quickly copyrighted "Duke Nukem".

[Commando Nukem]

Man after reading this thread I need a shower. Theres a lot of angst in here.

1991 was 17 years ago. The internet was a baby, most of the modern 3D graphics applications either didn't exist or were still in there infancy. Most of the modern day streamlined graphics editing packages were of the same status (Non existance or newborn).

3D Realms jacked a few sprites. SO WHAT? It was friggin 1991! The PC gaming industry was still young and not many people were making or playing games. Not to mention the level of expertise needed back then is basically what low level modding groups have TODAY.

What do you guys want to do? Bring a lawsuit to bear on 3D Realms? Please... Lets just chastise them all for this. this even sin. The ultimate sin. THe original SIN. OH, the humanity.

Woe is me.

[Dopefish7590]

Woe is you.

[Nukkus]

I'm still waiting to hear some official word on this. Personally, I think thei were just paying homage to another awesome sidescroller, just as Bobby prince was paying homage to Megadeth, and the intro pays tribute to Mel Gibson.

[Retodon8]

Wow, old thread.
A shame the link posted at the start has since died... I'm sort of curious to see what all the fuss actually is about.

[Nukkus]

the site's not dead, it just switched servers. here's the new link to the sensationalist propaganda crap.

http://www.nemmelheim.de/turrican/news/duke/

As the say, Imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

[SonnyBonds]

Imitation, yeah.. copying.. no

[Cowboy Duke]

Originally Posted by Sharpie

DUKE NUKEM isnt even an original NAME! for god sake they copied the name from CAPTAIN PLANET! i had no idea about all this stuff until now 3DR are lucky that DUKE 3D was original!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Nu...tain_Planet%29

**** meh sidewayzzz

[evanazzo]

that was news to you
maybe it was because i watched captain planet.

still 3DR Duke Nukem could kill CP Duke Nukem any day

[Maruno]

Originally Posted by Sharpie

DUKE NUKEM isnt even an original NAME! for god sake they copied the name from CAPTAIN PLANET! i had no idea about all this stuff until now 3DR are lucky that DUKE 3D was original!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Nu...tain_Planet%29

Duke Nukem being copied from Captain Planet does explain why he can absorb atoms as health.

[Nukkus]

*sigh* Ted Turner is a weenie anyway...




Ted: That's a solid gold weenie to you, four-eyes! I'mma rip off your nose, and stick it up your arse! I blow my nose on billion-dollar bonds! MY VODKA HAS GOLD FLAKES, AND I DRINK IT OUT OF GOLD GOBLETS!

[Retodon8]

Wikipedia says he created Captain Planet.
So that's the (obscure) reason he has a smilie here.

[Frenkel]

Duke Nukem 1 copied art from Mega Man and Turrican,
Duke Nukem 2 copied art from Savage and Turrican,
and I just found out Major Stryker copied art from Sidewinder.

[fast-1]

Does Ted Turner know about this Duke Nukem, although maybe that was a coincidence.

[Mr.Fibbles]

Originally Posted by Frenkel

Duke Nukem 1 copied art from Mega Man and Turrican,
Duke Nukem 2 copied art from Savage and Turrican,
and I just found out Major Stryker copied art from Sidewinder.

Thanks for necroposting and resurrecting a thread that has been killed more than once already.